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[GendoIkari]

This is confusing. The base rulebook, page 8 says:

The player places any cards that are in his play area (Action
cards that have been played in the Action phase as well as Treasure
cards that have been played in the Buy phase) and any cards
remaining in his hand onto his Discard pile.

Right next to it, in the margin, it says:

The player places all cards in his
play area onto his Discard pile.
This will include all Action cards
and Treasure cards he played
during this turn. He also places
all cards left in his hand onto
his Discard pile.

Question, do you have to discard your in-play cards BEFORE you discard your hand? I've always been under the impression that you discard all cards in any order, and this would allow you to keep an in-play card on top of your discard pile so that your opponent doesn't get to see any of the cards from your hand. The first quote sounds like you can do either order, the second quote could be interpreted that you have to do in-play cards first.

[AJD]

I can't find the reference at the moment, but I'm pretty sure the answer is that

—you have to discard all the cards in your hand at the same time, but
—you can do that before, after, or between discarding cards from the play area.

[GendoIkari]

Found this, which is pretty much the answer I think:

I have to strongly disagree with you here. Any time their hand is two important terminals and 3 treasure, (or KC and 4 treasure, etc) I'm going to be *very* interested in knowing the last card that they didn't play, especially in the mid to late game when decks are large and knowing how much of their power they have coming up this shuffle is vitally important.

You will never get to know it though - they will choose to put the cards from play on top when they discard everything.

(Though it doesn't address AJD's comments about discarding the hand all at together).

[chipperMDW]

From http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/9980155#9980155:

So: in clean-up, in whatever order you want, discard your cards from play and also your hand. When you discard your hand, discard all of it. That is the most direct/complete interpretation of the rules that I can see.

Strictly speaking, I suppose that would mean that your opponents should always get to see one card from your hand (assuming you had any there at all), since there should be a game state visible between discarding your hand (as a batch with the top card visible) and discarding the next thing.

[GendoIkari]

From http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/9980155#9980155:

So: in clean-up, in whatever order you want, discard your cards from play and also your hand. When you discard your hand, discard all of it. That is the most direct/complete interpretation of the rules that I can see.

Strictly speaking, I suppose that would mean that your opponents should always get to see one card from your hand (assuming you had any there at all), since there should be a game state visible between discarding your hand (as a batch with the top card visible) and discarding the next thing.

I disagree, the main point that I saw in that ruling was that discarding shouldn't take any extra time, and you should just be scooping things into your discard pile. From what he says there, I doubt Donald would say that you should have to pause in between discarding your hand and scooping your in-play cards.

[iguanaiguana]

Not joking: when I saw this thread, I read 'Otter of cleanup?'

What have we come to?

[Deadlock39]

From http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/9980155#9980155:

So: in clean-up, in whatever order you want, discard your cards from play and also your hand. When you discard your hand, discard all of it. That is the most direct/complete interpretation of the rules that I can see.

Strictly speaking, I suppose that would mean that your opponents should always get to see one card from your hand (assuming you had any there at all), since there should be a game state visible between discarding your hand (as a batch with the top card visible) and discarding the next thing.

I disagree, the main point that I saw in that ruling was that discarding shouldn't take any extra time, and you should just be scooping things into your discard pile. From what he says there, I doubt Donald would say that you should have to pause in between discarding your hand and scooping your in-play cards.

But if you are literally required to place your hand in the discard, and then scoop your play area and discard it, I think it would be relatively difficult to be fast enough to prevent other players from getting a look at the top card of your hand.

I pretty much always pile my hand and then scoop my on play cards on top of them, placing the entire stack in the discard at once. If that is not technically legal, I think chipper has a valid point.

[chipperMDW]

I know everybody playing with physical cards is just going to toss 'em in whatever manner is convenient. But there must be states between discarding individual cards from play; there have to be for things like Alchemist and Herbalist to work.

Maybe those states needn't actually be visible, though. I guess there's sort of precedent for discarding cards "one by one" but not having the individual cards "visible" on top of the discard pile except for the last one:

I think it's more natural to discard one at a time to Militia, given the phrasing; especially considering it lines up with Library etc. This could give you an infinite loop with "when you discard this, +1 card" and well that card doesn't exist. I'd rather not have a special ruling and with no special ruling and nothing in the rulebooks, "discard down to 3" sounds to me like I keep discarding until I have 3 (or fewer dammit). However you don't need to reveal the cards below the top one because somehow the rulebook says this.

I can't tell whether that ended up being conclusive or not, though (and I'm not sure where the rulebook specifically says this about Militia).

(Plus, I don't know how you'd go about actually hiding the top card of your discard pile while you're messing about with Watchtower or whatever.)

[Donald X.]

Question, do you have to discard your in-play cards BEFORE you discard your hand? I've always been under the impression that you discard all cards in any order, and this would allow you to keep an in-play card on top of your discard pile so that your opponent doesn't get to see any of the cards from your hand. The first quote sounds like you can do either order, the second quote could be interpreted that you have to do in-play cards first.

In the end the rulebook should be clearer and also as lax as possible. Man just get them discarded. The order of the discard pile will never matter except for people being able to see the top card. I imagine when I get the chance, I will have the rulebook let you discard hand or play cards in either order.

You do discard cards from play in a particular order, one at a time, which matters for things like Scheme; however obv. in practice when no such cards are around, just scoop 'em up. And as a result of these cards, you technically don't intermingle discards from hand and from play.

You are not required to pause anywhere in there to show people a card from your hand. Cards from hand are discarded all at once, so they never see more than one card.