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Author Topic: A place for more moderated discussion  (Read 51009 times)

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AdamH

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A place for more moderated discussion
« on: November 09, 2015, 07:46:25 am »
+5

There has been some frustration recently (actually it's been going on for quite a while for me) that discussions tend to get off-topic and it's difficult to continue them productively. I think something that would help me a lot is if there was a place we could post (like a board just for this purpose) where posts that aren't on topic and aren't relevant to furthering the discussion are not allowed. I thought a [serious] tag might accomplish this but I believe that has failed to work 100% of the time so far. I've been told by some smart people that I trust that having a separate board for this, which is moderated more closely, may be a better solution.

Some people think that having moderated discussion is a bad thing, I would say to those people that they are not required to read or participate in moderated discussion. If those people are worried that nobody would participate in moderated discussion, then I would say to those people that silence is preferable to irrelevant noise. If those people choose to disagree with that statement, then I respect their opinion and would like to remind them that they are not required to read or participate in this moderated discussion, and also to please consider that other people out there may have a different opinion and would like to have a place to talk under these guidelines.

I don't think taking anything away from the current forums is a good idea; just adding a place where your posts are deleted or something-or-other when they aren't on topic and productive. I'm not sure exactly what this would look like, but it would have to be its own sub-board or something and it would have to have some moderators and clearly defined rules. I can come up with some rules but I'm not confident that they would be good. I can moderate it but I wouldn't like to be the only one doing it and I don't know that I'm the best guy for the job anyways. There are a lot of questions that need answered so hopefully we can have a good discussion here to come up with those answers (lol). Once this gets more clearly defined then I hope to add a poll to this thread to gauge interest in each of the options that has come up.

Does anyone else have any thoughts? If this gets too quiet I can share some of mine but I don't know of any of my thoughts that are without any problems.
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theright555J

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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2015, 08:01:14 am »
+5

I'm fine with this.  Basically whatever would get you posting happy again.  :D

However, I'm not sure this will totally achieve the end that you want.  In the [serious] thread, there did appear to be reasonable responses to the question asked and more of a fundamental disagreement with the methodology of engaging MF.  I'm not sure how one would "moderate" the discussion in that thread except to make a judgement call about tone, and I don't think that's what you mean by this thread.
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AdamH

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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2015, 08:12:02 am »
+2

I think in that case the blame for that one going wrong can be placed mostly on me. The content of peoples' replies was just fine and actually constructive but the people that didn't follow directions got to me. I sort of set that thread up for failure by asking too much of people to direct their discussion elsewhere.

OTOH if people would just read my posts before criticizing them it would go a long way, but this is the internet and we can't tell people what they can say. Without something in place (like what I'm suggesting here) threads like that have no chance of accomplishing their goals.
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werothegreat

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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2015, 10:42:44 am »
+3

I think the answer is to not put [serious] or moderated anything.  Most people can tell from the tone you're looking for serious discussion, and saying "ONLY SERIOUS DISCUSSION ONLY GUYS" is just going to invite trolling.  This is the internet, and it's also human nature.  Telling people not to do something, particularly from a position without any real authority, just invites dissent.  Just start your discussion, reply earnestly, and don't give in to trolling.  Posting things like "can we please stay on topic" only irks people more.  So, just, I dunno, relax?
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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2015, 11:08:26 am »
+4

not sure how i feel about all this

not wanting to hear disagreement is such a wild concept for me tbh

i come from the school of valuing negative opinions more than positive ones, and it's awfully hard for me to see how believing otherwise doesn't limit your growth as a person.

that being said, i'm also a big believer in the concept of safe spaces for marginalized groups, but this doesn't seem like any kind of parallel to me?  dunno, not really feelin this and not sure how many others here besides adam would really go for it...

AdamH

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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2015, 11:24:07 am »
+3

I think the answer is to not put [serious] or moderated anything.  Most people can tell from the tone you're looking for serious discussion, and saying "ONLY SERIOUS DISCUSSION ONLY GUYS" is just going to invite trolling.  This is the internet, and it's also human nature.  Telling people not to do something, particularly from a position without any real authority, just invites dissent.  Just start your discussion, reply earnestly, and don't give in to trolling.  Posting things like "can we please stay on topic" only irks people more.  So, just, I dunno, relax?

I gotta be honest with you, man. I'd rather not post here at all than whatever you're suggesting. Whatever change I would need to make is not clear to me by your post. You can even point to other threads that you think have been successful in this regard and I still wouldn't know how I need to change what I say or how I say it to make my posts more like theirs. And even if I knew exactly what to do, I don't want to filter myself so people troll me less. F.DS used to be above that kind of crap and it isn't anymore.

I'm not suggesting that the internet change so that I can talk on it better. I'm not trying to defend the way I've gone about starting or trying to maintain the threads I'm butthurt about being derailed -- you're right about this being the internet and that is to be expected, I just didn't realize how much F.DS had recently become like the rest of the internet.

There seems to be this idea that 100% unmoderated forums with total "freedom of speech" is philosophically best and we should embrace that and anything else is just less good. I don't agree with that. I think someone should have authority in a separate place on F.DS -- I think this would be OK with you judging the the way you worded your post, but I'm not positive and I don't want to put words in your mouth.


not sure how i feel about all this

not wanting to hear disagreement is such a wild concept for me tbh

i come from the school of valuing negative opinions more than positive ones, and it's awfully hard for me to see how believing otherwise doesn't limit your growth as a person.

that being said, i'm also a big believer in the concept of safe spaces for marginalized groups, but this doesn't seem like any kind of parallel to me?

I totally agree with you, funkdoc. I don't know where you're getting the idea that I don't want to hear people who disagree with me.

I mean, disagreement should be constructive: a response of "Why did you rank Coin of the Realm over Peasant? I think Peasant is better because of XYZ" is much better than "Peasant rulz ur n idiot coin sux lolol" and even that is much better than "Beggar is best card CotR is bad! Scout is better than all of these!" which is better than "Otters are cute!"

For me, the first one is really good, the second one should be asked for further clarification, and the third and fourth should just be deleted because they aren't on topic or serious comments.

dunno, not really feelin this and not sure how many others here besides adam would really go for it...

If I'm the only person interested in this, then the solution is clearly to not do it and I'll just leave. This is fine. I mean it's not fine, I'll be really sad but it would be the only thing to do.

I'd really like to gauge interest in this -- I'd be really surprised if there wasn't interest but of course that's possible. If done properly (would have to be a separate sub-board that is easy to ignore) there should be no cost to people who aren't interested. I just don't know what that looks like and I don't feel comfortable making a poll to gauge interest when I don't know what we're gauging interest of yet.

Let me be clear, even though I already said this: I want to find out how much interest there is in this and if there isn't enough interest, then we shouldn't do it. That's going to happen.

It seems to be difficult to get any feedback on exactly how this should work or what it should look like because people are so far just saying "this won't work I don't like it and nobody will" as opposed to actual suggestions for something that would work. If I don't get any such suggestions, I'll put together my best guess and make a poll on it and we'll see. You are welcome to vote however you want on that poll.
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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2015, 11:33:45 am »
+3

The problem in judging helpfulness as opposed to, say, profanity is that it's subjective. If we assume good faith (and why wouldn't we), then a nice guy who posted an unpopular opinion, or proposed an out of the box solution, or couldn't explain themselves properly is going to see their post deleted, and put yourself in their shoes, they meant their best and got kicked out of the discussion.
This is real bad for a community too.
I can see how a moderating system would be good to have in a "technical" thread (such as one to, say, collect bug reports or count ourselves or list different species in the subfamily Lutrinae), whence it would be cool to be able to move discussion posts to a sister thread made to that purpose.
I guess if you had a specific aim in mind for your thread (a problem to solve, work to do, whatever), you could likewise have an "office" thread where people concentrate on the job, and post in a concise, but complete manner; and an unmoderated "coffee machine" thread, to which you could move any post considered too "lax". This would take away part of the feeling of having been ostracized after you get your post moderated, and would not result in the loss of any helpful contribution, even those deemed unhelpful.

OTOH, you'd have two threads to read, and split discussions and all that, and you cannot prevent people from using the unmoderated thread only so we'd probably end up in the same place we are now, but maybe we will enjoy it a bit more, who knows.
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werothegreat

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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2015, 11:39:55 am »
+9

I dunno what to tell you, man.  If someone is being silly ("otters are cute" or "CotR sucks" or whatever), you can just scroll by their post and ignore them.  Or if their post made you laugh, you can chuckle to yourself and maybe +1 it.  The response you're giving is what I'd expect to malicious or hurtful posts (and, granted, there have been a few of those on here, which is regrettable).  I really don't think the answer is policing, though.  Deleting posts only makes people resentful that their post got deleted.

As for examples - just look at the rankings threads.  Those have been quite on topic, and no one had to put a serious tag or anything.  Or look at the articles subforum - people post their articles, and get constructive feedback.  I think your experience with the MF threads in particular is coloring your view as to how this forum is behaving.  Everyone on here is really invested in the future of online Dominion, and passions get really high in those threads.  We've been waiting for a stable Dominion platform for over 3 years now, and there is a lot of bitterness toward what seems to be near-constant fuck-ups.  So some people are taking things into their own hands to try to resolve it, and there's a decided lack of enthusiasm toward the people currently in charge of Dominion Online.

I think the answer for you is to take a break from MF threads in particular.  We seem to be having constructive discussions in Dominion General at the moment.  :)
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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2015, 11:43:29 am »
+5

I would read a forum that did not allow silliness.

I don't have insightful strategic things to say often, so I probably would no post there very much.

I don't have any idea how to moderate it. Your biggest problem will be finding the right balance as to not scare people away from posting. If posts that were made with good intentions, but didn't live up to standards get deleted too often people will give up.  Obviously this is not your intention, but I think it will be hard to filter posts that are in the gray area. How do you tell the difference between post type #2 made by a someone who disagrees with the collective, and post type #3?

example:
Black Market is too low, Gear is too high

I know you're being flippant, but Gear seriously is under-ranked.

I'm not being flippant, though admittedly I took the chance to make a parody post...

(JSH admits his post was intended to look like a joke, but I think the example is relevant.

yuma

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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2015, 11:52:42 am »
+6

I think there is a place for moderated threads. But to an extent they already exist. Forum games, Dominion Tournaments, those all have strict posting requirements whether it be for rule regulations or for quick/swift data collection of wins or whatever in the tournament setting.

So the capacity for these types of threads already exist. I think what needs to happen is that the person requiring or wanting such a specific thread or sub-forum that they could then become a moderator over needs to show why that is essential.

For example: I think the "Ask Donald" anything thread could use some moderation to remove the stupid, "What are you wearing right now" troll questions. That would be a great use of moderation. Or if, for example, Qvist had not created the awesome program he created, but instead had everyone post their ranking lists in thread moderation would be necessary to allow this hypothetical Qvist to more easily collect the data and put it in a presentable format without needing to worry about others cluttering the thread with talking about other people's rankings.

Those are just some examples. So if you can illustrate why it is necessary, and ultimately prove to theory that it is necessary and worthwhile and that you are capable of being a responsible moderator (which you probably are), again to theory, I would have no issue with there being more moderation in the forums. But I think a general sub-forum titled Moderation Only Here that is consistently open to the general public is in general a poor idea (not sure if that is what you are recommending, but that is what I took from your basic premise) as I think too often people will go there seeking card invention feedback or game play feedback and remove any negative critique and thus remove good and profitable discourse from the forums.
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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2015, 11:59:12 am »
+7

Just here to say that I'm reading and following the thread.  There's value in just having this conversation and listening to people's views.

I also do think that [Serious] tags can work - they work on Reddit after all.  It's just that you have to hit the report button mercilessly on anything that isn't actually serious.  It's not like "reporting" a post puts the author on a Naughty List or anything, it just flags a particular post to my attention.  I anticipate that a system like that would have growing pains as people get used to it.
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AdamH

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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2015, 12:03:01 pm »
0

So moderating these things is hard. My only thought is to have multiple people moderating it and only delete posts that are unanimously agreed upon that they need to be deleted. I certainly don't think it's a job for just one person. I do know, however, know that other online communities have had great success with this kind of thing so I know it can be done. I know this because my IRL friend who I trust implicitly was able to rattle off a few subreddits that fit the bill. I promptly forgot which ones they were because I had never heard of them, but I believe it can be done.

Some threads on these forums are already successful at this. Wero mentioned the articles subforum which is the first thing that came to my mind. I had thoughts about merging this hypothetical new place with the articles subforum but I don't want to take something away that already exists. Am I just off base here? I don't have any confidence that if I post a thread on the articles board without the required Magical Secret Mojo™ (which I do not seem to possess) that it won't eventually get trolled by someone. After previous events, I'm really only comfortable posting a serious discussion around here in a place that's more moderated than what we have now.

The tournament boards are successful because there are moderators with the authority to organize discussions when they get off-track and who see the value in keeping things that way. It's super-great! What if we had a place with that kind of moderation, only where we could talk about all things Dominion? I mean, that would check all of my boxes.

The DXV thread, well I feel like that's kind of a special case. DXV likes some of the off-topic questions and just ignores the ones he doesn't like. It works great for him. I am not DXV (but if I had three wishes, you can be-- ahem. Excuse me).

I'm not sure exactly what I'm recommending. I'm not sure I'm the best person to moderate it, I just said I'm willing. There are some really good ideas here that I'm hoping to learn from.
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AdamH

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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2015, 12:07:38 pm »
0

Just here to say that I'm reading and following the thread. 

<3 <3 <3

I also do think that [Serious] tags can work, it's just that you have to hit the report button mercilessly on anything that isn't actually serious.  It's not like "reporting" a post puts the author on a Naughty List or anything, it just flags a particular post to my attention.

I'ma be perfectly honest. I really hesitate to press that button unless I know it's a spam bot. I feel terrible for taking up your time since I don't know how annoying that is to you. I figure that's another benefit of having multiple moderators, so that if I am away for the weekend I don't have to feel like the forums need my attention constantly or something.
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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2015, 12:37:26 pm »
+7

Please don't do this, I'll have nowhere to go
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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2015, 01:38:30 pm »
+1

A more serious post: this had been proposed and enacted in several online communities I've been part of in the past. Every time, the serious discussion forum either dies or only gets posted in by the original proposers. People don't like unfree speech. If what you are actually seeking in the depth of your heart (it's not easy to admit) is a place where your own perspective is champion, a blog is a great environment. Just look at ww's. Nothing wrong with it.
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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2015, 01:55:14 pm »
0

I've never read ww's blog.

I didn't know he even had a blog.

Probably still won't read it now, though.
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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2015, 02:00:22 pm »
0

Somebody asked me to link to it (I won't name names; I'll hide your lack of Google skills from the public)

http://wanderingwindergames.blogspot.com/

As per wero comment:
It's true one person may not read a blog, but a) that person does not reflect the entire community by any means and b) you can share blog posts here and on reddit if you so desire. reddit is practically built for that kind of thing.
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AdamH

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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2015, 02:03:11 pm »
+2

A more serious post: this had been proposed and enacted in several online communities I've been part of in the past. Every time, the serious discussion forum either dies or only gets posted in by the original proposers.

This is a really frustrating post for me to read. I <3 you, man, but this doesn't help me at all.

I've made it clear that silence is just fine with me. You say "it dies" like that's a bad thing. If nobody is interested then it won't happen, if people are interested then it will. If you don't want to post there, don't. If you don't think it will work, well, good for you. None of these things have happened yet, who knows what the future holds?

For me it's between doing this or not posting at all so I'm going to try and make it work. You saying you think it won't work isn't helping me make it work. It's also not going to get me to stop.

People don't like unfree speech.

Speak for yourself.

If what you are actually seeking in the depth of your heart (it's not easy to admit) is a place where your own perspective is champion, a blog is a great environment. Just look at ww's. Nothing wrong with it.

I don't know where you got this idea. Did I say something that makes you believe this is the case? If so, please point it out so I can make it clearer. If not, then please don't put words in my mouth (or WW's mouth for that matter).
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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2015, 02:09:11 pm »
+9

PPE: Adam already said something but...

I'm not sure if there is some honest misinterpreting of Adam's wishes here, or what, but I don't see anything implying he is looking for a forum where no one is allowed to disagree with him.

I think it is pretty clear he just wants to be able to talk about Dominion without jerks making posts like this:

Is it Moat?

Qvist,

I encountered a bug where the site asked me to rank a card against itself.


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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2015, 02:26:37 pm »
+3

I don't think my claim is far off the mark, referring back to earlier threads, particularly in his discussion with SCSN. Maybe he never outright stated it, but there were several posts that made this conclusion with textual evidence. Go back and read those; make it a game if you want. Adam is taking the perspective that his conception of how discussion should go is the way it 'should' be, even when he is one of the only people making the argument. (Whether he's right or wrong isn't my interest by the way; I'm happy with the forum and the reddit community mostly as-is.)

I should of course point out that nobody uses the [serious] tag, which is already an existent, less-elaborate application of the type of self-policing Adam is advocating. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't care much if every single discussion is 'serious' or not. My real life is serious enough as-is; having some color on the places I like to visit online helps me get through the day. Maybe I don't find every joke that gets posted here funny, but I also don't find every 'serious' post particularly insightful. And where do you draw the line?  Are we requiring a thesis statement in every post now? Are we putting up signs that say "NO FUN ALLOWED"? Do we censor new posters who we perceive as not knowing what they are talking about? I just find the entire concept ridiculous and unproductive, and I strongly suspect Adam's manifesto is coming from too personal of a place to befit the entire forum.

Other than that, anything I would want to say has been covered by other posters here. I apologize for even posting here; debate is not my forte. *goes back to writing skeleton puns for the art thread*
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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2015, 02:28:11 pm »
+4

You know, this happens to me in RL all the time.  I'm very serious about something (usually a game, fancy that!) and the people I'm around, family, friends, etc. just aren't that serious.  Therefore, they start poking fun at my seriousness to the point of almost literal ROFL.  Which of course makes me more defensive, which just increases the good joke for everyone else.  My young daughter is starting to exhibit the same traits.

Unfortunately, there is no way to get people like that on board.  The only choices are to flip such a massive gasket that the whole topic shifts to mental stability (but the joke is stopped), or to just let it go.

PPE: I think this has nothing to do with new posters not knowing what they are talking about...on the contrary, this is about highly established and respected posters using sarcasm & joking as weapons/tools (if you will) to galvanize the community and gain a lot of +1s, even if such banter derails the OP.  This is the internets, after all, people will do that!  So why is it bad to have one "moderated" forum where such posts potentially get blocked as opposed to a ton of upvotes?  I honestly don't know.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 02:31:48 pm by theright555J »
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Witherweaver

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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2015, 02:31:57 pm »
+2

You know, this happens to me in RL all the time.  I'm very serious about something (usually a game, fancy that!) and the people I'm around, family, friends, etc. just aren't that serious.  Therefore, they start poking fun at my seriousness to the point of almost literal ROFL.  Which of course makes me more defensive, which just increases the good joke for everyone else.  My young daughter is starting to exhibit the same traits.

Unfortunately, there is no way to get people like that on board.  The only choices are to flip such a massive gasket that the whole topic shifts to mental stability (but the joke is stopped), or to just let it go.

I think if those people didn't like you, they wouldn't poke fun at your seriousness.  Maybe the other choice is to accept the relationship for what it is.

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jsh357

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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2015, 02:34:16 pm »
+2

You know, this happens to me in RL all the time.  I'm very serious about something (usually a game, fancy that!) and the people I'm around, family, friends, etc. just aren't that serious.  Therefore, they start poking fun at my seriousness to the point of almost literal ROFL.  Which of course makes me more defensive, which just increases the good joke for everyone else.  My young daughter is starting to exhibit the same traits.

Unfortunately, there is no way to get people like that on board.  The only choices are to flip such a massive gasket that the whole topic shifts to mental stability (but the joke is stopped), or to just let it go.

I want to point out here that (and your comment is entirely valid, make no mistake) 'seriousness' is in the eye of the beholder. When Adam is saying he wants more serious discussion, for instance, he has a particular idea of that in mind. That might not match another person's perception. For instance, Stef has a very different writing style in his 'serious' posts that I would consider more concise and leaving more up for interpretation (which imply the reader has certain understandings already, and make for very engaging reads by the way), but his 'serious' posts are certainly equal to or at times greater than those characteristic of Adam's more analytical, 'packed' style. As an extreme example, I believe Awaclus is being entirely serious with a lot of his one-liners. Are they not appropriate in a 'serious' discussion? Depends on who you ask. 
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2015, 02:35:32 pm »
+3

You know, this happens to me in RL all the time.  I'm very serious about something (usually a game, fancy that!) and the people I'm around, family, friends, etc. just aren't that serious.  Therefore, they start poking fun at my seriousness to the point of almost literal ROFL.  Which of course makes me more defensive, which just increases the good joke for everyone else.  My young daughter is starting to exhibit the same traits.

Unfortunately, there is no way to get people like that on board.  The only choices are to flip such a massive gasket that the whole topic shifts to mental stability (but the joke is stopped), or to just let it go.

I think if those people didn't like you, they wouldn't poke fun at your seriousness.  Maybe the other choice is to accept the relationship for what it is.

just let it go == accept the relationship for what it is

(and people doing something because they like you doesn't stop it from being a problem)

You know, this happens to me in RL all the time.  I'm very serious about something (usually a game, fancy that!) and the people I'm around, family, friends, etc. just aren't that serious.  Therefore, they start poking fun at my seriousness to the point of almost literal ROFL.  Which of course makes me more defensive, which just increases the good joke for everyone else.  My young daughter is starting to exhibit the same traits.

Unfortunately, there is no way to get people like that on board.  The only choices are to flip such a massive gasket that the whole topic shifts to mental stability (but the joke is stopped), or to just let it go.

I want to point out here that (and your comment is entirely valid, make no mistake) 'seriousness' is in the eye of the beholder. When Adam is saying he wants more serious discussion, for instance, he has a particular idea of that in mind. That might not match another person's perception. For instance, Stef has a very different writing style in his 'serious' posts that I would consider more concise and leaving more up for interpretation (which imply the reader has certain understandings already, and make for very engaging reads by the way), but his 'serious' posts are certainly equal to or at times greater than those characteristic of Adam's more analytical, 'packed' style. As an extreme example, I believe Awaclus is being entirely serious with a lot of his one-liners. Are they not appropriate in a 'serious' discussion? Depends on who you ask. 

Even though the line may be hard to draw doesn't mean the whole idea is bad - there are some posts which are obviously not serious.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 02:38:45 pm by XerxesPraelor »
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Witherweaver

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Re: A place for more moderated discussion
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2015, 02:38:14 pm »
+1

You know, this happens to me in RL all the time.  I'm very serious about something (usually a game, fancy that!) and the people I'm around, family, friends, etc. just aren't that serious.  Therefore, they start poking fun at my seriousness to the point of almost literal ROFL.  Which of course makes me more defensive, which just increases the good joke for everyone else.  My young daughter is starting to exhibit the same traits.

Unfortunately, there is no way to get people like that on board.  The only choices are to flip such a massive gasket that the whole topic shifts to mental stability (but the joke is stopped), or to just let it go.

I think if those people didn't like you, they wouldn't poke fun at your seriousness.  Maybe the other choice is to accept the relationship for what it is.

just let it go == accept the relationship for what it is

(and people doing something because they like you doesn't stop it from being a problem)

Hmm.. not exactly what I meant.  I meant more, like.. what you're getting isn't exactly what you're looking for, but focus on the parts of it that are beneficial and not that are negative.  I mean, it would be far worse if everyone just ignored you entirely.

I have similar experiences with what theright555J was describing.
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