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[Aleimon Thimble]

I don't really get Urchin at #3. It's pretty nice (I have it at #11), but it's not that good imo.

Urchin itself is a weak attack and a cantrip, nothing too special. If you ever buy it, it's because you want a Mercenary, a card that looks ridiculous at first glance - trash 2 cards, +$2, +2 cards, AND a Militia to boot. However, best case scenario, if your two opening Urchins collide on T3/T4, you can only start using Mercenary after the second shuffle. If they don't collide, you need to wait ANOTHER shuffle AND probably need to invest in another relatively useless Urchin. By that time, you should have been busy trashing with an early-game trasher if available, or just building in general.

Then when you finally have the (admittedly) very strong Mercenary, you can start abusing it, right? True, but you will likely run out of Mercenary food quickly, especially if you decide to go for more than one. And if you can't trash two cards, all of the other abilities will stop working as well... so you either have to sacrifice good cards, buy a lot of Copper (and get lucky enough to make it line up with the Mercenary), or stop using the Mercenary altogether.

So all in all, Mercenary is very powerful, but there are a lot of factors that balance it out. In my opinion Urchin is nowhere near the leagues of Ambassador or Masquerade.

--

Also, Steward and Amulet should be right next to each other. They're both very strong and fulfill very similar roles.

[Awaclus]

I don't really get Urchin at #3. It's pretty nice (I have it at #11), but it's not that good imo.

Urchin itself is a weak attack and a cantrip, nothing too special. If you ever buy it, it's because you want a Mercenary, a card that looks ridiculous at first glance - trash 2 cards, +$2, +2 cards, AND a Militia to boot. However, best case scenario, if your two opening Urchins collide on T3/T4, you can only start using Mercenary after the second shuffle. If they don't collide, you need to wait ANOTHER shuffle AND probably need to invest in another relatively useless Urchin. By that time, you should have been busy trashing with an early-game trasher if available, or just building in general.

In the best case scenario where your two opening Urchins collide on T3/T4, you still need to invest in another Urchin to get the second Mercenary as soon as possible.

Then when you finally have the (admittedly) very strong Mercenary, you can start abusing it, right? True, but you will likely run out of Mercenary food quickly, especially if you decide to go for more than one. And if you can't trash two cards, all of the other abilities will stop working as well... so you either have to sacrifice good cards, buy a lot of Copper (and get lucky enough to make it line up with the Mercenary), or stop using the Mercenary altogether.

Getting rid of the "Mercenary food" is the entire purpose of the card. The faster you run out of it, the better.

[managore]

Out of curiosity, what would people rank Chapel if it cost $3 instead of $2?

[ehunt]

Out of curiosity, what would people rank Chapel if it cost $3 instead of $2?

that's a nice question. it's below ambassador/masquerade for sure. those are my top two and i'd put chapel at 3.

[aku_chi]

Also, Steward and Amulet should be right next to each other. They're both very strong and fulfill very similar roles.

Not necessarily.  Steward is significantly better in engines.  Amulet misses a lot more shuffles, so the trashing and coin from Stewart is better.  And the cards from Steward are much better than Amulet's Silver gaining in an engine.  On the flip side, Amulet is significantly better for big money and slogs.  Amulet's Silver gaining is great and selective trashing is better than fast trashing.  It could be that these advantages and disadvantages cancel out and they are similarly valuable/impactful, but that isn't necessarily the case.

I expect Ferry to raise in the rankings as more people play with it.  I ranked it at #3 (though I didn't rank Urchin due to unfamiliarity).  It's bonkers.  5-cost cards become super easy to gain.  And with something like Goons or Grand Market, it's game-warping.

For what it's worth, I support Ambassador > Masquerade.  In my mind, Ambassador is the most impactful card in the game.  I'm almost never going to ignore it, and it is always going to change the game significantly.  While Masquerade is just as ignorable, it isn't usually as impactful.

[Roadrunner7671]

Ambassador? I didn't vote for him!

[Chris is me]

Also, Steward and Amulet should be right next to each other. They're both very strong and fulfill very similar roles.

They are definitely not almost exactly as good as each other, not one bit. As trashers, Stewart is somewhat faster as it doesn't miss shuffles and trashing 2 cards now means you redraw the Stewart sooner than if you trashed one card each turn twice before discarding.

The biggest thing though is that the upside of Stewart is how it isn't useless once you're thinned out. It draws cards or gives you money. Amulet has no draw option at all, which is significantly worse in engines. It's a terminal Copper this turn and effectively a Peddler next turn.

[Limetime]

Out of curiosity, what would people rank Chapel if it cost $3 instead of $2?

that's a nice question. it's below ambassador/masquerade for sure. those are my top two and i'd put chapel at 3.

I would put at top card

[managore]

Out of curiosity, what would people rank Chapel if it cost $3 instead of $2?

that's a nice question. it's below ambassador/masquerade for sure. those are my top two and i'd put chapel at 3.

I would put at top card

While Steward can only trash up to 2 instead of up to 4, doesn't its versatility make it better than Chapel in many cases? I rank Steward at #3 after Masq and Amb, and so I'd have trouble ranking Chapel above #4.

[Awaclus]

I don't think Chapel would be the best $3 card.

[markusin]

I think I put Ferry at #4. It's bonkers, right?

[Infthitbox]

Considering the vast majority of the time that I buy Chapel, it costs $3, and that I will often buy it over a Steward at the time, I'd rank it above Steward. Not sure where I'd put it in relation to Masquerade and Ambassador, as those cards sort of warp the value of Chapel in games where those cards appear together.

[Limetime]

Out of curiosity, what would people rank Chapel if it cost $3 instead of $2?

that's a nice question. it's below ambassador/masquerade for sure. those are my top two and i'd put chapel at 3.

I would put at top card

While Steward can only trash up to 2 instead of up to 4, doesn't its versatility make it better than Chapel in many cases? I rank Steward at #3 after Masq and Amb, and so I'd have trouble ranking Chapel above #4.

4 is greater than 2 by 2 shuffles (about 2-4 turns). So unless the versatility can make up for those less productive shuffles chapel > steward

[Beyond Awesome]

I don't think Chapel would be the best $3 card.

Considering that I almost always buy Chapel over the current top three $3, I am pretty sure at $3, I would rank Chapel #1. Hell, I consider Chapel at $2 the best card in the game.

[Titandrake]

I'd put Chapel at 3, but it's very hard to judge for me. Ambassador > Urchin > Chapel > Masquerade for me, but they're all so close in power level that it's not a big difference. Depending on the day, you switch the locations of Ambassador/Urchin/Masquerade and I'd agree. But I don't think I can rank Chapel above any 2 of those.

[AdamH]

I don't really get Urchin at #3. It's pretty nice (I have it at #11), but it's not that good imo.

...

So all in all, Mercenary is very powerful, but there are a lot of factors that balance it out. In my opinion Urchin is nowhere near the leagues of Ambassador or Masquerade.

I remember going through this exact internal struggle when doing my lists. I shed a single tear and then determined that Urchin is, in fact, that good.

If Chapel cost $3 I'd put it above Steward for sure. I'm reasonably sure it wouldn't be #1 but man that's a tough question to answer. That would require a lot of thought at minimum and much more likely, lots of games of a Dominion variant where Chapel costs $3 and is in every kingdom.

I know this has mostly been talked about already but it's being brought up here again so here we go! Amulet and Steward are similar cards, yes, but I don't think that means they should be right next to each other on the rankings. The biggest difference between them is that Steward can draw cards and Amulet can't, and I think this is a HUGE deal. Drawing cards is like, really really stinkin' good.

Even if you assume that the trashing abilities of the two cards are roughly equal (which I believe Steward's is much stronger overall, but obvs. it depends on the board and there was not full agreement, which is too bad because I'm very sure I'm right about this), drawing cards is way better than gaining a silver on much more than 55% of all boards. <3 <3 <3 Steward ily <3 <3 <3

[Aleimon Thimble]

Getting rid of the "Mercenary food" is the entire purpose of the card. The faster you run out of it, the better.

If trashing is all you care about (which is plausible), shouldn't you prefer another cheap trasher with a lower opportunity cost? Like, one of the two cards we're discussing below?

Even if you assume that the trashing abilities of the two cards are roughly equal (which I believe Steward's is much stronger overall, but obvs. it depends on the board and there was not full agreement, which is too bad because I'm very sure I'm right about this), drawing cards is way better than gaining a silver on much more than 55% of all boards. <3 <3 <3 Steward ily <3 <3 <3

I agree that drawing cards is better than gaining Silvers most of the time, but Amulet's trashing is in my opinion stronger than Steward's. Playing Steward involves having a 2-card hand left, with which you can't do a whole lot, while Amulet spreads out the trashing. It is also more flexible in general; if you don't want to trash a second card for some reason, you just gain a Silver or get +$1 instead. These boons balance Amulet's weaknesses, not being able to draw cards and missing more shuffles. All in all, I'd say that they're about even in strength. (I ranked Amulet slightly higher myself but I will admit that may be the novelty factor)

[Awaclus]

Getting rid of the "Mercenary food" is the entire purpose of the card. The faster you run out of it, the better.

If trashing is all you care about (which is plausible), shouldn't you prefer another cheap trasher with a lower opportunity cost? Like, one of the two cards we're discussing below?

You also care about hitting $5, screwing up your opponent's trashing and screwing up your opponent's $5 in the early game.

[funkdoc]

aleimon: i have tried ignoring urchin in favor of even junk dealer (clearly the best $5 trasher and thus one of the absolute best period), and i get absolutely slaughtered whenever i go that route.  i think i've figured out two key reasons why -

1. the deck-thinning phase of the game is precisely when mercenary's attack hurts the most.

2. mercenary usually enables you to buy a decent engine piece while trashing 2 cards, which is pretty much the gold standard for early trashing.


i've been realizing more and more that "thinning is winning" isn't quite right, and i think the real magic bullet is mixing in thinning with early deck-building tempo.  thinning is usually better if you have to choose between the two, yes, but not having to make that choice is the best possible situation.  mercenary gives that power to you *and* takes it away from your opponent, often forcing them to decide whether to keep silvers or estates.  the amount of time it takes to get it is the sole reason it's not the best card in the game, imo.

[AdamH]

i've been realizing more and more that "thinning is winning" isn't quite right

When I say that, it means when I have a choice between an option that involves thinning and an option that involves not thinning (sifting, big draw, pseudo-trashing, playing the same strategy without thinning), and I think it's a close call, that I should just thin.

When you have a choice between multiple cards that trash, well of course "thinning is hwinning" doesn't really apply, you have to consider all of the other things you said. I actually really like the way you put that, the only thing I disagree with is you saying

junk dealer (clearly the best $5 trasher and thus one of the absolute best period)

I think this depends on a lot of things, of course. Statements as strong and as general as this are nearly impossible to make and be correct about. Ha, I just made a statement that was almost as strong and as general as the one you made and now I'm claiming it's right. LOLOL

Are there other trashers that exist that would make me skip Urchin? Of course, they're out there. But for the reasons you stated, a lot of the time you still want to go for Urchins anyways.

[Psyduck]

I must say that I agree with huge parts of this year's list. It looks very similar to my personal ranking. There are just a handful of cards where I have a different opinion:

#38 Masterpiece (I have it on 18#):
I know that Big Money isn't quite popular these days, but Masterpiece is a good BM card. It needs some support, but with cards that let you have big hands at the start of the game (Embassy, Vault, Smithy, even Tactician) can fllod you deck with Silvers. This works quite well more often than I'd expect. And it's bonkers with Feodum, of course. Okay, #18 is probably too high, but I don't see it as bad as #38.

#36 Sage (I have it on #27):
While Sage often doesn't do much in the middle and late game, it can be huge as opener to see your $4 card faster. For me it's a solid card and not as bad as others seem to see it.

#33 Caravan Guard (I have it on #42):
What? While not having much experience with it, I feel this card is very weak. It doesn't do anything this turn and just gives some $1 next turn. Or you have to have it in hand when being attacked, and then you get $1? Does that help? I guess in games with permanent attacks it can be nice to have some Caravan Guards, but I assume I'd prefer something else for $3 most of the time. For example Great Hall, which at least gives 1VP.

#23 Lookout (I have it on #36):
I don't see why Lookout gained some ranks. I feel it is a slow trasher that sometimes doesn't hit at all and becomes weaker and weaker in the course of a game.

#22 Expedition (I have it on #15):
I really, really expect Expedition to have a strong impact on many boards. $3 is quite a low cost for starting the next turn with 2 Labs.

#13 Black Market (I have it on #22):
While actually enjoying Black Market games a lot, I think it's skippable quite often. If there's already a viable engine, one doesn't need BM. And if not, BM rarely makes an engine viable.

[Aleimon Thimble]

#33 Caravan Guard (I have it on #42):
What? While not having much experience with it, I feel this card is very weak. It doesn't do anything this turn and just gives some $1 next turn. Or you have to have it in hand when being attacked, and then you get $1? Does that help? I guess in games with permanent attacks it can be nice to have some Caravan Guards, but I assume I'd prefer something else for $3 most of the time. For example Great Hall, which at least gives 1VP.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, to the point where I have it on the exact same position. Caravan Guard is so so so weak and inflexible and unreliable, I almost regret putting it above anything at all, even if that 'anything' is Chancellor. It consistently fails the Silver test in almost every situation, its reaction part is almost useless, and it generally makes you wonder why you ever bothered to pick it up. The only reason to buy it is if you really want cheap cantrips for some reason, in which case I'd prefer Vagrant or even Pearl Diver, because they're both cheaper, or indeed Great Hall, because of the VP.

[Awaclus]

#33 Caravan Guard (I have it on #42):
What? While not having much experience with it, I feel this card is very weak. It doesn't do anything this turn and just gives some $1 next turn. Or you have to have it in hand when being attacked, and then you get $1? Does that help? I guess in games with permanent attacks it can be nice to have some Caravan Guards, but I assume I'd prefer something else for $3 most of the time. For example Great Hall, which at least gives 1VP.

1VP is literally nothing. $1 can be the difference between getting a Mountebank or a Silver.

#23 Lookout (I have it on #36):
I don't see why Lookout gained some ranks. I feel it is a slow trasher that sometimes doesn't hit at all and becomes weaker and weaker in the course of a game.

It is a relatively fast trasher. It's non-terminal and cycles 2 cards. That's faster than some even very highly ranked cards such as Masquerade and Forager. It's also incredibly common to overestimate how much of a problem it is that you don't get to see what cards you're trashing before you commit to trashing something; unless you're forced to play it with e.g. Herald, you can just wait until you know for sure that there's a junk card in the top 3 as long as you pay attention to it, and this doesn't even slow you down too much.

#13 Black Market (I have it on #22):
While actually enjoying Black Market games a lot, I think it's skippable quite often. If there's already a viable engine, one doesn't need BM. And if not, BM rarely makes an engine viable.

If there's a viable engine, Black Market is quite likely the best payload you can possibly get for it. Even if there is already a better payload card in the kingdom, such as Bridge, Black Market is still sometimes worth using in combination with it.

It consistently fails the Silver test in almost every situation, its reaction part is almost useless, and it generally makes you wonder why you ever bothered to pick it up. The only reason to buy it is if you really want cheap cantrips for some reason, in which case I'd prefer Vagrant or even Pearl Diver, because they're both cheaper, or indeed Great Hall, because of the VP.

The Silver test is not a thing. The only test that you need to worry about is the nothing test, and Caravan Guard almost never fails the nothing test, unlike, say, Silver.

[SCSN]

#13 Black Market (I have it on #22):
While actually enjoying Black Market games a lot, I think it's skippable quite often. If there's already a viable engine, one doesn't need BM. And if not, BM rarely makes an engine viable.

I quite strongly disagree with both of these statements. BM enables quite a number of engines that otherwise wouldn't be possible, and all but the most powerful engine is made stronger by the inclusion of Black Market, enabling as it does the mid-turn gaining of exclusive cards. I recommend Stef's Black Market article for more info:

Only play Black Market in an engine. Fortunately an engine is almost always viable with Black Market on the board.
[...]
0, 1 or 2
[...] Your initial plan should be to play with 1 Black Market. Exceptions arise when you can't significantly get the frequency up (no trashing, no village+draw) or when the Black Market contains some cheap bombs. I estimate 10% for 0, 60% for 1 and 30% for 2 early copies.

Fwiw, this is my top 10:

Code: [Select]

1.) Masquerade   [X]
2.) Ambassador   [X]
3.) Urchin   [X]
4.) Swindler   [X]
5.) Black Market   [X]
6.) Forager   [X]
7.) Steward   [X]
8.) Amulet   [X]
9.) Menagerie   [X]
10.) Hermit   [X]
And yes, everything that's alive in me was screaming in agony when I put the card on position four above the one on five.

[Limetime]

Caravan guard is very good in a SP mirror because you can play them as peddlers on opponents turns and SP loves cantrips and non-terminals

#36 Sage (I have it on #27):
While Sage often doesn't do much in the middle and late game, it can be huge as opener to see your $4 card faster. For me it's a solid card and not as bad as others seem to see it.

#33 Caravan Guard (I have it on #42):
What? While not having much experience with it, I feel this card is very weak. It doesn't do anything this turn and just gives some $1 next turn. Or you have to have it in hand when being attacked, and then you get $1? Does that help? I guess in games with permanent attacks it can be nice to have some Caravan Guards, but I assume I'd prefer something else for $3 most of the time. For example Great Hall, which at least gives 1VP.

#23 Lookout (I have it on #36):
I don't see why Lookout gained some ranks. I feel it is a slow trasher that sometimes doesn't hit at all and becomes weaker and weaker in the course of a game.

#13 Black Market (I have it on #22):
While actually enjoying Black Market games a lot, I think it's skippable quite often. If there's already a viable engine, one doesn't need BM. And if not, BM rarely makes an engine viable.

Sage I hate sage with a passion! Like 90% of the time I wish it was something else or less. It would rather be a silver in slogs and big money. In a engine there is probably something better than it. In a rush it sucks. As an opener you should probably be buying something else instead of wasting your time on a sifting cantrip.

Caravan Guard Is nothing special but at least it is a cantrip that does something.

Lookout Is about as fast as forager with a minor risk mitigated by deck tracking

Black Market is really good even when there is a engine available. It almost always has something worth buying black market for. In engines that are missing strong payload, draw, trashing, or +buy black market is absolutely great.