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Author Topic: 5 cost treasures  (Read 16359 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2015, 12:10:52 am »
0

Cache has combos though. Royal Seal got nothing.

We just need a Reaction that says "When you put this on top of your deck, gain a Province" or something like that.
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Marcory

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2015, 12:51:26 am »
0

Royal Seal has some synergies, such as:

Black Market/ Storyteller (so that you can top-deck cards you gain during your turn)
Stonemason/Border Village/Haggler (to gain and top-deck multiple good cards)
Cost reducers (ditto)
Sometimes: HOP/Talisman (the Treasure/Gainers).

It's not a world-beater, but it doesn't ever hurt your deck (except to the extent that Silver itself does). Many of the other $5 Treasures can't say the same.

Sure, there are often better $5's, even better $5 Treasures, than Royal Seal, and most of the time you'd prefer Watchtower to RS, but on the other hand, there are times when you won't Mine a Silver into a Counterfeit or IGG. But all things being equal, You'll almost always mine a Silver to an RS, unless you just desperately need that Gold.
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schadd

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2015, 01:03:30 am »
+4

i will almost always buy royal seal over silver with no other options; i would also buy hitler over silver
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 02:20:53 pm by schadd »
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2015, 04:57:40 am »
0

Sure, there are often better $5's, even better $5 Treasures, than Royal Seal, and most of the time you'd prefer Watchtower to RS, but on the other hand, there are times when you won't Mine a Silver into a Counterfeit or IGG. But all things being equal, You'll almost always mine a Silver to an RS, unless you just desperately need that Gold.

wait, i would basically never Mine a silver to a royal seal - am I playing wrong?
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2015, 06:49:54 am »
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Cache has combos though. Royal Seal got nothing.
Royal Seal and Cache both have the same problem that they mainly get bought when you want Gold and come up $1 short.

Cache would be fun if you could topdeck the Cache and put the Coppers in your discard pile. The way it is now, you get the Cache and the Coppers in the same shuffle, so the $3 from Cache doesn't help that much; you'll likely end up with $5 and buy another Cache. :)

I can't think of many (up to) $5 action cards I'd skip for either of them though.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2015, 09:38:25 am »
+2

Sure, there are often better $5's, even better $5 Treasures, than Royal Seal, and most of the time you'd prefer Watchtower to RS, but on the other hand, there are times when you won't Mine a Silver into a Counterfeit or IGG. But all things being equal, You'll almost always mine a Silver to an RS, unless you just desperately need that Gold.

wait, i would basically never Mine a silver to a royal seal - am I playing wrong?

Of course not, and hopefully you aren't buying Mines either.
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werothegreat

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2015, 10:04:05 am »
+1

Sure, there are often better $5's, even better $5 Treasures, than Royal Seal, and most of the time you'd prefer Watchtower to RS, but on the other hand, there are times when you won't Mine a Silver into a Counterfeit or IGG. But all things being equal, You'll almost always mine a Silver to an RS, unless you just desperately need that Gold.

wait, i would basically never Mine a silver to a royal seal - am I playing wrong?

Of course not, and hopefully you aren't buying Mines either.

Hey, Mine has its uses.
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Eran of Arcadia

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2015, 10:10:22 am »
0

Hey, Mine has its uses.

Absolutely. I usually have a spare cheat at the end of Day 1 (after Mickey Mantle/mainstat) and cheating a Mine saves me a clover and/or pull for the Trapper.

Wait, wrong Mine. (Ctrl+F may be necessary.)
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2015, 01:32:20 pm »
+2

Hey, Mine has its uses.

Absolutely. I usually have a spare cheat at the end of Day 1 (after Mickey Mantle/mainstat) and cheating a Mine saves me a clover and/or pull for the Trapper.

Wait, wrong Mine. (Ctrl+F may be necessary.)

It's been so long. I understood half of that, and for the sanctity of my free time I don't think I want to understand the other half.
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Eran of Arcadia

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2015, 11:27:35 pm »
0

Hey, Mine has its uses.

Absolutely. I usually have a spare cheat at the end of Day 1 (after Mickey Mantle/mainstat) and cheating a Mine saves me a clover and/or pull for the Trapper.

Wait, wrong Mine. (Ctrl+F may be necessary.)

It's been so long. I understood half of that, and for the sanctity of my free time I don't think I want to understand the other half.

I haven't been able to donate for a while, but I spent like a month farming to buy it for the Dominion references alone.

(And I knew I'd seen that username before . . . )
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jomini

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2015, 10:03:23 pm »
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$5 dollar treasures fall into the same trap that a lot of terminal coin cards do (e.g. Chouse, Mandarin) - they have to compete with the kingdom treasures for their main effect. Cache does mostly the same thing as gold (barring cases where you want the copper) but is vastly less space efficient than Gold or even Silver.

Royal Seal is "better than Silver", but top decking a buy is relatively weak compared to just about most other generic card abilities (Develop top decks ... but can double the value of a card in your deck and trash out dross like Es & Cs).

Venture, well outside of edge cases, its draw comes too late to be useful as draw and essentially becomes +cash.

Contraband is useful for the +buy (particularly if you have multiple options like 4 viable engine components and Fairgrounds to complement Provinces), but +buy is so weak that Sir Martin gets 2 of them and costs $4. The edge between Contraband and Gold (or Silver) just isn't that huge.

Stash - you see it a bit more often, but it still just provides +cash.

The good $5, well those have more rare abilities such that there will be many boards where they are the only game in town - trashing with Counterfeit, gaining with Hop, cursing with Igg - these are things that we often consider because we often have no other option to do these things on a given board. For the other $5 treasures, their main feature is that they give cash and that means they have other (often better) options just above and below them in price. As long as you have silver & gold, anything that makes cash will be far more niche than something that has a different main effect.
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Chris is me

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2015, 10:36:23 am »
+2

Contraband is useful for the +buy (particularly if you have multiple options like 4 viable engine components and Fairgrounds to complement Provinces), but +buy is so weak that Sir Martin gets 2 of them and costs $4. The edge between Contraband and Gold (or Silver) just isn't that huge.

While Contraband sucks, I don't think you can understate +Buy's importance. +Buy is almost more important than +Action for engines, it's a fairly rare asset, and it can really increase the speed of the game. The problem with Contraband is that you can basically never get a Province with it in play, which is kind of the point of the extra buy for a lot of engines in the end game...
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theright555J

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2015, 11:13:51 am »
+1

While Contraband sucks, I don't think you can understate +Buy's importance. +Buy is almost more important than +Action for engines, it's a fairly rare asset, and it can really increase the speed of the game. The problem with Contraband is that you can basically never get a Province with it in play, which is kind of the point of the extra buy for a lot of engines in the end game...

I totally agree with the +Buy on Contraband sometimes being critical...especially if it's the only +Buy on the board.  And while you may never be able to buy a province with it in play, the amount of potential extra tempo you get from gaining one expensive card or two cheaper engine parts is often huge.  Furthermore, it can be quite difficult for the opponent to know what to block.  I'm amazed how many times opponents just block Gold or Grand Market blindly when the engine parts are more valuable or the rest of my hand was all copper anyway.
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singletee

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2015, 11:26:39 am »
+8

While Contraband sucks, I don't think you can understate +Buy's importance. +Buy is almost more important than +Action for engines, it's a fairly rare asset, and it can really increase the speed of the game. The problem with Contraband is that you can basically never get a Province with it in play, which is kind of the point of the extra buy for a lot of engines in the end game...

I totally agree with the +Buy on Contraband sometimes being critical...especially if it's the only +Buy on the board.  And while you may never be able to buy a province with it in play, the amount of potential extra tempo you get from gaining one expensive card or two cheaper engine parts is often huge.  Furthermore, it can be quite difficult for the opponent to know what to block.  I'm amazed how many times opponents just block Gold or Grand Market blindly when the engine parts are more valuable or the rest of my hand was all copper anyway.

It's also very nice with Stonemason. Block key engine part? I'll just buy Stonemason and get two. Block Stonemason? With +$3 and a buy, I can still probably double-buy what I wanted anyway.

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2015, 11:58:44 am »
+10

While Contraband sucks, I don't think you can understate +Buy's importance. +Buy is almost more important than +Action for engines, it's a fairly rare asset, and it can really increase the speed of the game. The problem with Contraband is that you can basically never get a Province with it in play, which is kind of the point of the extra buy for a lot of engines in the end game...

I totally agree with the +Buy on Contraband sometimes being critical...especially if it's the only +Buy on the board.  And while you may never be able to buy a province with it in play, the amount of potential extra tempo you get from gaining one expensive card or two cheaper engine parts is often huge.  Furthermore, it can be quite difficult for the opponent to know what to block.  I'm amazed how many times opponents just block Gold or Grand Market blindly when the engine parts are more valuable or the rest of my hand was all copper anyway.

It's also very nice with Stonemason. Block key engine part? I'll just buy Stonemason and get two. Block Stonemason? With +$3 and a buy, I can still probably double-buy what I wanted anyway.

this one deserves a "neat and potentially useful card interactions" post. even more, you can Stonemason the Contraband into something useful once Contraband becomes a liability.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2015, 12:44:44 pm »
+1

Contraband is useful for the +buy (particularly if you have multiple options like 4 viable engine components and Fairgrounds to complement Provinces), but +buy is so weak that Sir Martin gets 2 of them and costs $4. The edge between Contraband and Gold (or Silver) just isn't that huge.

While Contraband sucks, I don't think you can understate +Buy's importance. +Buy is almost more important than +Action for engines, it's a fairly rare asset, and it can really increase the speed of the game. The problem with Contraband is that you can basically never get a Province with it in play, which is kind of the point of the extra buy for a lot of engines in the end game...

What does +buy get you? It gives you the option to:
1. smooth your coin useage (e.g. $7 can be a 3 & 4 or a 6)
2. you can acquire more than one component per turn
3. you can score more than 6 VP per turn


This is far from trivial, but all of these have plenty of alternatives. Workshop used to be consistently undervalued by the community because they were all trained to go +buy when you could get a lot of the function of 2 from Wshop more effectively. Smoothing out coin can be done by having many options for cards (e.g. a rich engine environment with Hunting grounds, Smithy, Bazaar, and Wandering Minstrel), but returning cards to deck (e.g. Count, Courtyard), banking coin tokens, and a few other odds and ends. Scoring VP, well that is harder, but with some TfB, Goons, Monument, Opost, alt-VP, and a few other tricks this is also doable.

If you mean +action to be villages, sure, but villages are often overrated. If by +actions you mean anything with +1 or more actions on it and then ones that are effectively that (e.g. Tr, Prssn, Kc, Rc), then no.

Again look at the knights. Dame Molly is +2 actions and costs $5. Sir Marten is $4 with +2 buys. Of all the bonuses, why is +buy on the cheap Knight if not for balance?

Worker's village vs Bazaar suggest that +1 buy is worth less than $1 coin. Wv vs Lost City likewise suggests that 1 card is worth more than 1 buy.

Seaway and Lost Arts also suggest that +buy is of limited utility.

Or put another way, University/Graverobber  can accomplish everything that two Golds and a Grand market can manage.

+buy is great for engines, but it is not close to necessary to engines. Even if we ignore Provinces (e.g. something like Fairgrounds is out), Contraband still has trouble. Very often you want engine components and good opponents will not let you get balanced on villages vs terminals. I certainly will play Contraband as the only +buy on boards with options (e.g. Province/Fairgrounds), but nonetheles, +buy is just weak on its own. You can build decks around draw, and sometimes even +actions. You cannot build decks around +buy.

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theright555J

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2015, 12:53:57 pm »
0

I don't think the issue is building a deck "around" +Buy.  With adequate +Action support, gaining a card via an action (as opposed to buying it) is usually a lot stronger, especially if possible to gain & play on the same turn.

The real issue to me is tempo.  Usually there are better 5-cost cards in the kingdom, but not too many that give a strong spike of economy and +Buy at the same time and not at the cost of an action.  Counterfeit of course fits the bill, but again Counterfeit>>>Contraband.  Adding Contraband first can allow the overall deck-development speed to rise faster because of the flexibility in gaining multiple engine parts or big economy.
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jomini

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2015, 06:11:07 pm »
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I don't think the issue is building a deck "around" +Buy.  With adequate +Action support, gaining a card via an action (as opposed to buying it) is usually a lot stronger, especially if possible to gain & play on the same turn.

The real issue to me is tempo.  Usually there are better 5-cost cards in the kingdom, but not too many that give a strong spike of economy and +Buy at the same time and not at the cost of an action.  Counterfeit of course fits the bill, but again Counterfeit>>>Contraband.  Adding Contraband first can allow the overall deck-development speed to rise faster because of the flexibility in gaining multiple engine parts or big economy.

Contraband is not a bad card, but how much does it realistically spike your deck? Say we have 12 cards (2 silvers, 7 C, 3E). How often will Contraband actually spike your deck? With Contraband our average hand goes up to 5.38, with silver it is 5. In either case, you will hit 5 most hands. Sure you will have some $6 and $7 spikes ... but for those to be valuable you need to be able to either buy useful stuff at $3 & $4 (so why not get the first one going a turn earlier by skipping the Contraband?)  or you need some $6 or $7 that is worth it to spike early (Forge comes to mind). Of course, if you are trying to spike for a big card like Altar, chances are that you will be denied buying it.

Contraband is slightly more more efficient than Silver at driving $5 hands and a decent bit better at driving $6 hands. However it is worse at driving $6 hands than golds (which have no buy restrictions). Unless you have a lot of options or you really need the +buy (again Fairgrounds is a good example of this), Contraband is a card that provides coin slightly better than silver for its space and slightly better than gold for its cost. If space is cheap (e.g. Xroads/Great hall/Iw) then Silver likely wins out. If coin is cheap (e.g. Quarry is out) then Gold wins out (if something else doesn't).

Cards that provide cash as a big part of their benefit will always get stuck here. Silvers are 3 and golds are 6. Cache, Venture, and Contraband thus tend to be only good when their secondary effects - not the coin they produce - is what you are after. This is why Cache/Duke does well, Venture excels on copper trashed boards with curses, and Contraband when that +buy is really big. Getting them just for a few more coins in hand, awfully hard to beat Silver or Gold.
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Davio

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2015, 02:39:46 am »
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Contraband should have provided +$4. :)
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Chris is me

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2015, 08:32:51 am »
+1

This is far from trivial, but all of these have plenty of alternatives. Workshop used to be consistently undervalued by the community because they were all trained to go +buy when you could get a lot of the function of 2 from Wshop more effectively. Smoothing out coin can be done by having many options for cards (e.g. a rich engine environment with Hunting grounds, Smithy, Bazaar, and Wandering Minstrel), but returning cards to deck (e.g. Count, Courtyard), banking coin tokens, and a few other odds and ends. Scoring VP, well that is harder, but with some TfB, Goons, Monument, Opost, alt-VP, and a few other tricks this is also doable.

Obviously there are a few niche cards that will help you pick up components, gain Duchies, or take VP chips, but +Buy is a lot more common than those, and you can just consider those effectively "Virtual +Buy" for the sake of this discussion if it really helps you. The point I'm making is without +Buy (or these other things), in the absence of other payload engines are often just not viable. You either need +Buy / gaining to build an engine quickly enough to use it, or you need +Buy to have a payload of more than one Province a turn, for an engine to be viable. Many exceptions to this rule do exist, I know, but usually that involves a payload similar to "1 Province per turn + a strong Attack per turn" or the engine on the board is easier to build than anything else.

Quote
If you mean +action to be villages, sure, but villages are often overrated. If by +actions you mean anything with +1 or more actions on it and then ones that are effectively that (e.g. Tr, Prssn, Kc, Rc), then no.

Okay, you go ahead and try and build an engine with terminal draw and no Villages. Lemme know how that goes for you. I mean, ignoring Village Idiot scenarios where new players buy several Villages instead of real cards out of a pathological fear of any terminal collision ever, Villages are really important and their scarcity often is the sole determining factor in the viability of an engine.

Quote
Again look at the knights. Dame Molly is +2 actions and costs $5. Sir Marten is $4 with +2 buys. Of all the bonuses, why is +buy on the cheap Knight if not for balance?

Worker's village vs Bazaar suggest that +1 buy is worth less than $1 coin. Wv vs Lost City likewise suggests that 1 card is worth more than 1 buy.

I don't think you understand how cost works in Dominion at all, actually. Cost is only somewhat correlated with card strength. Cost in Dominion is saying how accessible the card should be, not how important it is. Cost dictates when you can buy a card - you can buy $2s at nearly any time, $4s you can only take one of in the first shuffle, $5s usually take a shuffle to obtain, etc. Cards with lower cost are easier to obtain multiple copies of, etc. For example, Chapel is one of the strongest cards in the game, but it costs $2. Why? Because it should be accessible to every player on either turn of their first shuffle, and because buying multiple Chapel doesn't make any sense. Does this mean heavy trashing is the worst strategy in the game, and is less important than looking at the top of your deck and removing Victory cards? Hell no.

Cards that give extra Buys are less important in the very early game and thus you're already dissuaded from purchasing them early. If you don't have an extra buy, they might as well cost everything in your hand, so cards you only need to buy early can cost nothing since their "real" cost is the use of your only Buy. And once you have them, it's only occasionally that you need to stack up a ton of extra Buys. This is why a lot of +Buy cards aren't expensive, not because they aren't important, but because when you need extra Buys you're spending all of your Buy phase resources on the card anyway, and because there's less benefit to spamming many +Buy cards than spamming +Cards cards.

Cards that give +Cards cost more, because you want a lot of them, especially in an engine which is more likely to have cards with +Buy, so the cost plays more of a factor in ensuring their scarcity.

Quote
+buy is great for engines, but it is not close to necessary to engines.

Engines need payload to be worth it. Ultimately, in many circumstances, engines take longer to set up than terminal draw Big Money takes to fire up, so you need some incentive to build an engine. The use of an Attack every turn plus VP gaining every turn is one way to do it. Gaining multiple Provinces a turn through +Buy is another. Being able to set up the engine quickly with gaining / +Buy can offset the speed advantage terminal draw BM has. In that sense, I've looked at many boards, seen a lack of +Buy / way to gain multiple cards a turn, and concluded "I can't get the engine to work" nearly as often as I've done the same due to a lack of Villages.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2015, 08:35:42 am »
0

I think +buy is low on this list of things engines need.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2015, 01:42:17 pm »
0

We're always discussing engines like it's a well defined term.

I think most players have an idea of what an engine is, but that we couldn't come up with a single sentence that accurately describes it with no edge cases that everybody can agree on.

So when you say "an engine needs X", it's unclear what we're actually talking about in the first place, let alone whether it actually needs X.

There are no engines, only strategies. Buying only Treasure and VP cards is a strategy you can try in any kingdom. But there are many other strategies, often within the same kingdom. And many of those strategies benefit from the same things:
- Getting rid of cards with little use that clutter your deck (trashing)
- Getting a lot of beneficial cards (gaining, note that +buy also leads to gaining)
- Playing your good cards more often (than your bad cards) (sifting, cycling, +actions)
- Hampering your opponents by attacking them

Any of the above is helpful for many strategies.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2015, 02:15:32 pm »
0

Chris:

There are many engine options beside gainers and +buys. You can add in chip cards (Monument, Goons, Bishop), alt-VP (just about anything, but certainly Nobles, Vineyards, and Colonies), attacks (e.g. mass Rabble), fast setup (e.g. Magpie, Hunting Party, Stables), and a few other odd tricks (e.g. Masquerade, Farmland).  This is well over half the boards in Dominion.

+buy is certainly nice, but it is far, far less important to engines than:
the ability to play multiple cards (even Xroads or Nec)
the ability to draw more than 5 cards
the ability to increase reliability (mass gain components, trash dead weight, or sift)

Dominion is much, much more a game of you need a good reason not to go engine if it is remotely possible.

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Okay, you go ahead and try and build an engine with terminal draw and no Villages. Lemme know how that goes for you. I mean, ignoring Village Idiot scenarios where new players buy several Villages instead of real cards out of a pathological fear of any terminal collision ever, Villages are really important and their scarcity often is the sole determining factor in the viability of an engine.
Done it many times. The most fun was Embassy, Moneylender, Venture, Hop, and Farmland. Trashed down the coppers and pretty reliably I could draw deck with the treasures, gain Venture/Gold/Embassy with the Hop, and the trash gold or Farmland when buying Farmland (or just buy a Province).

Lots of cards - like Hparty, Stables, Pool, and Alchemist can easily manage an engine without villages. Even more cards can manage it as part of some combo (e.g. Apprentice/Market Square, Menage/Oasis).

We're always discussing engines like it's a well defined term.

I think most players have an idea of what an engine is, but that we couldn't come up with a single sentence that accurately describes it with no edge cases that everybody can agree on.

So when you say "an engine needs X", it's unclear what we're actually talking about in the first place, let alone whether it actually needs X.

There are no engines, only strategies. Buying only Treasure and VP cards is a strategy you can try in any kingdom. But there are many other strategies, often within the same kingdom. And many of those strategies benefit from the same things:
- Getting rid of cards with little use that clutter your deck (trashing)
- Getting a lot of beneficial cards (gaining, note that +buy also leads to gaining)
- Playing your good cards more often (than your bad cards) (sifting, cycling, +actions)
- Hampering your opponents by attacking them

Any of the above is helpful for many strategies.

I think a good definition of engine is a deck designed to be able to rapidly and repeatedly play many newly gained cards.

This eliminates a lot of edge casing - golden card decks do not repeatedly play newly gained cards. Top deck combos - like Kc/Scheme do not rapidly play new cards unless they are engines.

It also captures some of the dynamics unique to engines - the hypergrowth phase when the engine starts to click. The need for fewer duplicate cards (like Militia). And even things like the importance of action balance and card balance.
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mee

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2015, 02:16:14 pm »
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I have previously never bought royal seal  but I have just played a game which makes me majorly rethink that with bakers and traveling fair  there was at least 3 times I payed 2 coin tokens in order to get the top decking effect so I think that next time royal seal is out I will have to give it a try I think in an engine  deck it could be very good when you topdeck the 2 pieces you need to start your engine going
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Davio

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2015, 06:16:53 am »
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Problem is: Most good engine pieces aside from villages cost $5.
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