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ehunt

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5 cost treasures
« on: October 31, 2015, 10:47:19 am »
+2

anyone else autopilot to ignore 5 cost treasures, only to fail to notice that Counterfeit is on the board? It turns out that this problem extends even to filling out Qvist's ranking chart.

(luckily, probably because of the artwork and the hyphen in the name, my autopilot doesn't miss IGG)
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ehunt

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2015, 10:49:20 am »
0

I guess this was unfair.

Good 5-cost treasures:
Counterfeit, IGG

Pretty good 5-cost treasures:
Venture, Horn of Plenty

clunkers:
Stash, Royal Seal, Contraband, Cache

I suspect treasure trove will be between layers 2 and 3 but maybe wrong. EDIT: also forgot about Relic.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 10:56:29 am by ehunt »
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GendoIkari

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2015, 10:49:47 am »
+8

Royal Seal is fine, why does everyone complain about Royal Seal? They can't all be the best 5 cost treasure ever.
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eHalcyon

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2015, 10:54:29 am »
+1

I'd pay attention to Contraband.  Sometimes it can facilitate early engine building.
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GendoIkari

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2015, 10:58:17 am »
0

I'd pay attention to Contraband.  Sometimes it can facilitate early engine building.

Yeah I'm way out of touch with current knowledge about good/high-level Dominion strategy, but I think that Contraband is often pretty good. 
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2015, 11:11:48 am »
0

I tend to take notice of the 5-cost treasures just because I find them fascinating and want them to be good. It's the 4-cost treasures that I tend to overlook, but then my opponent opens Quarry and I immediately realize that I have to think about that card.

It's a bit of a bummer if you have to stop playing Contraband when you want to gain big VP cards, so hopefully you have a way of trashing it for some benefit at that point with Apprentice or Remodel or something.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2015, 12:01:21 pm »
0


I suspect treasure trove will be between layers 2 and 3 but maybe wrong. EDIT: also forgot about Relic.
Treasure trove is better than venture. It plus BM is miles ahead of venture plus trashing. They are both pretty bad in engines.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2015, 12:09:05 pm »
+4

I'd pay attention to Contraband.  Sometimes it can facilitate early engine building.

Yeah I'm way out of touch with current knowledge about good/high-level Dominion strategy, but I think that Contraband is often pretty good.
It's legitimately one of the worst cards in the game.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2015, 12:16:13 pm »
0

I'd pay attention to Contraband.  Sometimes it can facilitate early engine building.

Yeah I'm way out of touch with current knowledge about good/high-level Dominion strategy, but I think that Contraband is often pretty good.
It's legitimately one of the worst cards in the game.

This. I have played only a couple of games where it was good, and even then it wasn't super amazing.
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schadd

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2015, 12:18:53 pm »
0

Code: [Select]
27.) Horn of Plenty   [X]

treasure trove i have at 126, it adds a gold to your remodel engine and doesn't cost you an action and adds $4 to your overdrawing one, while not costing an action, and also you get two whole dollars when you play it.
contranband is a junk card once you start buying provinces (unless you're not buying provinces, see top of post) which is a luxury only trashers get to have. it's in that sort of hot-garbo tier where it's not that bad and also there's always something more interesting to get and if there isn't then you don't want it anyway.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 02:14:21 pm by schadd »
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Awaclus

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2015, 12:29:25 pm »
+3

Horn of Plenty is one of the cards that should immediately stand out from the kingdom and make you ask yourself the question "is there any way I can build an engine?".
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2015, 01:02:33 pm »
+7

If I did them all:

Counterfeit, HoP, IGG, Relic, Treasure Trove, Venture, Stash, Contraband, Royal Seal, Cache

Counterfeit is a lot better than the rest, though HoP is pretty sweet too. Playing a Relic every turn is actually a pretty nice attack. Treasure Trove is very nice in super strong engines and money but hard to include in a less consistent engine. I could see Treasure Trove moving above Relic and IGG, not sure. All the pure money producers are pretty bad cards, they are innocent additions to certain decks but rarely make a big impact. Venture's powers have been terribly exaggerated since forever. Contraband is a lot more interesting when looking at the board, it actually does something. I wanted to put Contraband over Venture, but even if you might consider Contraband you don't usually get one. Contraband might be worse than Royal Seal I guess.

edit: I forgot Stash (thanks eHalcyon).

edit2: I don't think "pure money producers" makes any sense as a label, but I think I meant: Venture, Royal Seal, Stash, (sort of Cache).
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 02:06:47 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2015, 01:43:42 pm »
0

If I did them all:

Counterfeit, HoP, IGG, Relic, Treasure Trove, Venture, Contraband, Royal Seal, Cache

Counterfeit is a lot better than the rest, though HoP is pretty sweet too. Playing a Relic every turn is actually a pretty nice attack. Treasure Trove is very nice in super strong engines and money but hard to include in a less consistent engine. I could see Treasure Trove moving above Relic and IGG, not sure. All the pure money producers are pretty bad cards, they are innocent additions to certain decks but rarely make a big impact. Venture's powers have been terribly exaggerated since forever. Contraband is a lot more interesting when looking at the board, it actually does something. I wanted to put Contraband over Venture, but even if you might consider Contraband you don't usually get one. Contraband might be worse than Royal Seal I guess.

Stash?
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2015, 01:53:11 pm »
0

bof... venture is the bee's knees...

contraband, i'd say the games where you wind up buying it (usually because of an otherwise good board with no +Buy or a truly terrible board) are really interesting games, so it's the most memorable of the terrible 5-cost treasures. but it's still, objectively, not a good card.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2015, 02:13:51 pm »
0

Counterfeit, HoP, IGG, Relic, Treasure Trove, Venture, Stash, Contraband, Royal Seal, Cache
second
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2015, 05:36:00 pm »
+4

Horn of Plenty is one of the cards that should immediately stand out from the kingdom and make you ask yourself the question "is there any way I can build an engine?".

Horn of Plenty is one of two cards (along with Duke) that makes me go "Oh no, I'm going to get crushed" as I can never, ever play them right whilst my opponent produces works of incredible artifice and genius with them.
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ehunt

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2015, 06:51:59 pm »
0

Horn of Plenty is one of the cards that should immediately stand out from the kingdom and make you ask yourself the question "is there any way I can build an engine?".

agree/disagree. it's a fabulous card and fun to play around. certainly in the top 10 most fun cards to see on a board. but it can be a trap -- primarily, it needs lots and lots of draw. id say it's a little below IGG in terms of goodhood.

what's good (and fun) about it is that it's its own reward for playing around it. the deck that's good enough to draw 5+ horns of plenty is the deck that's about to end the game on a win.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2015, 07:15:39 pm »
+6

Horn of Plenty is one of the cards that should immediately stand out from the kingdom and make you ask yourself the question "is there any way I can build an engine?".

agree/disagree. it's a fabulous card and fun to play around. certainly in the top 10 most fun cards to see on a board. but it can be a trap -- primarily, it needs lots and lots of draw. id say it's a little below IGG in terms of goodhood.

what's good (and fun) about it is that it's its own reward for playing around it. the deck that's good enough to draw 5+ horns of plenty is the deck that's about to end the game on a win.

You don't need a HoP megaturn to make HoP good (and you don't have to be playing with a bunch of Horns if you can't support that many). Just gaining multiple $3-5s is already great and the potential extra Province or Duchy at the end of the game can be huge. It's big loss relative to other gainers is not allowing gain and play in the same turn (except with Black Market or Storyteller), but of course it's nice not to need an action and the $ value of the gained cards can be so much higher.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 07:16:57 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2015, 07:17:35 pm »
0

In the (increasingly rare) games where a terminal BM that would buy 5$ silver is a close call in strength to the board's engine deck, deciding how helpful the 5$ treasure is is an interesting factor on evaluating the board.

But yeah they usually kinda suck and stuff.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2015, 09:08:11 pm »
+1

Royal seal isn't that bad. For example, royal seal/nothing is a better opening than masquerade/nothing on a masquerade big money board.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2015, 09:25:40 pm »
0

Royal seal isn't that bad. For example, royal seal/nothing is a better opening than masquerade/nothing on a masquerade big money board.

This is an anecdotal edge case, and is only true because it often allows you to still play Masq in the second shuffle.

I'd vote Royal Seal not only the worst $5 treasure, but the worst $5 card period.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2015, 09:44:50 pm »
+2

Royal seal isn't that bad. For example, royal seal/nothing is a better opening than masquerade/nothing on a masquerade big money board.

This is an anecdotal edge case, and is only true because it often allows you to still play Masq in the second shuffle.

I'd vote Royal Seal not only the worst $5 treasure, but the worst $5 card period.

That is patently ridiculous. Cache is weaker by a landslide, and Harvest is also easily worse.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2015, 10:07:48 pm »
+6

Royal seal isn't that bad. For example, royal seal/nothing is a better opening than masquerade/nothing on a masquerade big money board.

This is an anecdotal edge case, and is only true because it often allows you to still play Masq in the second shuffle.

I'd vote Royal Seal not only the worst $5 treasure, but the worst $5 card period.

That is patently ridiculous. Cache is weaker by a landslide, and Harvest is also easily worse.

Agreed, Royal Seal is pretty decent among the bad $5s, and Cache is so weak I usually don't even notice it when it's on the board.

Around two weeks ago I was playing an Ambassador war on a board that also featured Stables. My opponent had an unlucky start and ended up with much more Stables and less Ambassador activity. But because of his superior draw the Ambassadors he did play were a lot more effective and his Moats were also annoying so I never really managed to junk him. At that point Cache caught my eye. Man, shipping over a couple of those every turn sure is effective.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2015, 10:52:57 pm »
0

Royal Seal is leagues ahead of Cache.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2015, 11:56:09 pm »
0

Cache has combos though. Royal Seal got nothing.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2015, 12:10:52 am »
0

Cache has combos though. Royal Seal got nothing.

We just need a Reaction that says "When you put this on top of your deck, gain a Province" or something like that.
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Marcory

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2015, 12:51:26 am »
0

Royal Seal has some synergies, such as:

Black Market/ Storyteller (so that you can top-deck cards you gain during your turn)
Stonemason/Border Village/Haggler (to gain and top-deck multiple good cards)
Cost reducers (ditto)
Sometimes: HOP/Talisman (the Treasure/Gainers).

It's not a world-beater, but it doesn't ever hurt your deck (except to the extent that Silver itself does). Many of the other $5 Treasures can't say the same.

Sure, there are often better $5's, even better $5 Treasures, than Royal Seal, and most of the time you'd prefer Watchtower to RS, but on the other hand, there are times when you won't Mine a Silver into a Counterfeit or IGG. But all things being equal, You'll almost always mine a Silver to an RS, unless you just desperately need that Gold.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2015, 01:03:30 am »
+4

i will almost always buy royal seal over silver with no other options; i would also buy hitler over silver
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 02:20:53 pm by schadd »
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ehunt

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2015, 04:57:40 am »
0

Sure, there are often better $5's, even better $5 Treasures, than Royal Seal, and most of the time you'd prefer Watchtower to RS, but on the other hand, there are times when you won't Mine a Silver into a Counterfeit or IGG. But all things being equal, You'll almost always mine a Silver to an RS, unless you just desperately need that Gold.

wait, i would basically never Mine a silver to a royal seal - am I playing wrong?
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2015, 06:49:54 am »
0

Cache has combos though. Royal Seal got nothing.
Royal Seal and Cache both have the same problem that they mainly get bought when you want Gold and come up $1 short.

Cache would be fun if you could topdeck the Cache and put the Coppers in your discard pile. The way it is now, you get the Cache and the Coppers in the same shuffle, so the $3 from Cache doesn't help that much; you'll likely end up with $5 and buy another Cache. :)

I can't think of many (up to) $5 action cards I'd skip for either of them though.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2015, 09:38:25 am »
+2

Sure, there are often better $5's, even better $5 Treasures, than Royal Seal, and most of the time you'd prefer Watchtower to RS, but on the other hand, there are times when you won't Mine a Silver into a Counterfeit or IGG. But all things being equal, You'll almost always mine a Silver to an RS, unless you just desperately need that Gold.

wait, i would basically never Mine a silver to a royal seal - am I playing wrong?

Of course not, and hopefully you aren't buying Mines either.
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werothegreat

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2015, 10:04:05 am »
+1

Sure, there are often better $5's, even better $5 Treasures, than Royal Seal, and most of the time you'd prefer Watchtower to RS, but on the other hand, there are times when you won't Mine a Silver into a Counterfeit or IGG. But all things being equal, You'll almost always mine a Silver to an RS, unless you just desperately need that Gold.

wait, i would basically never Mine a silver to a royal seal - am I playing wrong?

Of course not, and hopefully you aren't buying Mines either.

Hey, Mine has its uses.
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Eran of Arcadia

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2015, 10:10:22 am »
0

Hey, Mine has its uses.

Absolutely. I usually have a spare cheat at the end of Day 1 (after Mickey Mantle/mainstat) and cheating a Mine saves me a clover and/or pull for the Trapper.

Wait, wrong Mine. (Ctrl+F may be necessary.)
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2015, 01:32:20 pm »
+2

Hey, Mine has its uses.

Absolutely. I usually have a spare cheat at the end of Day 1 (after Mickey Mantle/mainstat) and cheating a Mine saves me a clover and/or pull for the Trapper.

Wait, wrong Mine. (Ctrl+F may be necessary.)

It's been so long. I understood half of that, and for the sanctity of my free time I don't think I want to understand the other half.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2015, 11:27:35 pm »
0

Hey, Mine has its uses.

Absolutely. I usually have a spare cheat at the end of Day 1 (after Mickey Mantle/mainstat) and cheating a Mine saves me a clover and/or pull for the Trapper.

Wait, wrong Mine. (Ctrl+F may be necessary.)

It's been so long. I understood half of that, and for the sanctity of my free time I don't think I want to understand the other half.

I haven't been able to donate for a while, but I spent like a month farming to buy it for the Dominion references alone.

(And I knew I'd seen that username before . . . )
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2015, 10:03:23 pm »
0

$5 dollar treasures fall into the same trap that a lot of terminal coin cards do (e.g. Chouse, Mandarin) - they have to compete with the kingdom treasures for their main effect. Cache does mostly the same thing as gold (barring cases where you want the copper) but is vastly less space efficient than Gold or even Silver.

Royal Seal is "better than Silver", but top decking a buy is relatively weak compared to just about most other generic card abilities (Develop top decks ... but can double the value of a card in your deck and trash out dross like Es & Cs).

Venture, well outside of edge cases, its draw comes too late to be useful as draw and essentially becomes +cash.

Contraband is useful for the +buy (particularly if you have multiple options like 4 viable engine components and Fairgrounds to complement Provinces), but +buy is so weak that Sir Martin gets 2 of them and costs $4. The edge between Contraband and Gold (or Silver) just isn't that huge.

Stash - you see it a bit more often, but it still just provides +cash.

The good $5, well those have more rare abilities such that there will be many boards where they are the only game in town - trashing with Counterfeit, gaining with Hop, cursing with Igg - these are things that we often consider because we often have no other option to do these things on a given board. For the other $5 treasures, their main feature is that they give cash and that means they have other (often better) options just above and below them in price. As long as you have silver & gold, anything that makes cash will be far more niche than something that has a different main effect.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2015, 10:36:23 am »
+2

Contraband is useful for the +buy (particularly if you have multiple options like 4 viable engine components and Fairgrounds to complement Provinces), but +buy is so weak that Sir Martin gets 2 of them and costs $4. The edge between Contraband and Gold (or Silver) just isn't that huge.

While Contraband sucks, I don't think you can understate +Buy's importance. +Buy is almost more important than +Action for engines, it's a fairly rare asset, and it can really increase the speed of the game. The problem with Contraband is that you can basically never get a Province with it in play, which is kind of the point of the extra buy for a lot of engines in the end game...
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2015, 11:13:51 am »
+1

While Contraband sucks, I don't think you can understate +Buy's importance. +Buy is almost more important than +Action for engines, it's a fairly rare asset, and it can really increase the speed of the game. The problem with Contraband is that you can basically never get a Province with it in play, which is kind of the point of the extra buy for a lot of engines in the end game...

I totally agree with the +Buy on Contraband sometimes being critical...especially if it's the only +Buy on the board.  And while you may never be able to buy a province with it in play, the amount of potential extra tempo you get from gaining one expensive card or two cheaper engine parts is often huge.  Furthermore, it can be quite difficult for the opponent to know what to block.  I'm amazed how many times opponents just block Gold or Grand Market blindly when the engine parts are more valuable or the rest of my hand was all copper anyway.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2015, 11:26:39 am »
+8

While Contraband sucks, I don't think you can understate +Buy's importance. +Buy is almost more important than +Action for engines, it's a fairly rare asset, and it can really increase the speed of the game. The problem with Contraband is that you can basically never get a Province with it in play, which is kind of the point of the extra buy for a lot of engines in the end game...

I totally agree with the +Buy on Contraband sometimes being critical...especially if it's the only +Buy on the board.  And while you may never be able to buy a province with it in play, the amount of potential extra tempo you get from gaining one expensive card or two cheaper engine parts is often huge.  Furthermore, it can be quite difficult for the opponent to know what to block.  I'm amazed how many times opponents just block Gold or Grand Market blindly when the engine parts are more valuable or the rest of my hand was all copper anyway.

It's also very nice with Stonemason. Block key engine part? I'll just buy Stonemason and get two. Block Stonemason? With +$3 and a buy, I can still probably double-buy what I wanted anyway.

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2015, 11:58:44 am »
+10

While Contraband sucks, I don't think you can understate +Buy's importance. +Buy is almost more important than +Action for engines, it's a fairly rare asset, and it can really increase the speed of the game. The problem with Contraband is that you can basically never get a Province with it in play, which is kind of the point of the extra buy for a lot of engines in the end game...

I totally agree with the +Buy on Contraband sometimes being critical...especially if it's the only +Buy on the board.  And while you may never be able to buy a province with it in play, the amount of potential extra tempo you get from gaining one expensive card or two cheaper engine parts is often huge.  Furthermore, it can be quite difficult for the opponent to know what to block.  I'm amazed how many times opponents just block Gold or Grand Market blindly when the engine parts are more valuable or the rest of my hand was all copper anyway.

It's also very nice with Stonemason. Block key engine part? I'll just buy Stonemason and get two. Block Stonemason? With +$3 and a buy, I can still probably double-buy what I wanted anyway.

this one deserves a "neat and potentially useful card interactions" post. even more, you can Stonemason the Contraband into something useful once Contraband becomes a liability.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2015, 12:44:44 pm »
+1

Contraband is useful for the +buy (particularly if you have multiple options like 4 viable engine components and Fairgrounds to complement Provinces), but +buy is so weak that Sir Martin gets 2 of them and costs $4. The edge between Contraband and Gold (or Silver) just isn't that huge.

While Contraband sucks, I don't think you can understate +Buy's importance. +Buy is almost more important than +Action for engines, it's a fairly rare asset, and it can really increase the speed of the game. The problem with Contraband is that you can basically never get a Province with it in play, which is kind of the point of the extra buy for a lot of engines in the end game...

What does +buy get you? It gives you the option to:
1. smooth your coin useage (e.g. $7 can be a 3 & 4 or a 6)
2. you can acquire more than one component per turn
3. you can score more than 6 VP per turn


This is far from trivial, but all of these have plenty of alternatives. Workshop used to be consistently undervalued by the community because they were all trained to go +buy when you could get a lot of the function of 2 from Wshop more effectively. Smoothing out coin can be done by having many options for cards (e.g. a rich engine environment with Hunting grounds, Smithy, Bazaar, and Wandering Minstrel), but returning cards to deck (e.g. Count, Courtyard), banking coin tokens, and a few other odds and ends. Scoring VP, well that is harder, but with some TfB, Goons, Monument, Opost, alt-VP, and a few other tricks this is also doable.

If you mean +action to be villages, sure, but villages are often overrated. If by +actions you mean anything with +1 or more actions on it and then ones that are effectively that (e.g. Tr, Prssn, Kc, Rc), then no.

Again look at the knights. Dame Molly is +2 actions and costs $5. Sir Marten is $4 with +2 buys. Of all the bonuses, why is +buy on the cheap Knight if not for balance?

Worker's village vs Bazaar suggest that +1 buy is worth less than $1 coin. Wv vs Lost City likewise suggests that 1 card is worth more than 1 buy.

Seaway and Lost Arts also suggest that +buy is of limited utility.

Or put another way, University/Graverobber  can accomplish everything that two Golds and a Grand market can manage.

+buy is great for engines, but it is not close to necessary to engines. Even if we ignore Provinces (e.g. something like Fairgrounds is out), Contraband still has trouble. Very often you want engine components and good opponents will not let you get balanced on villages vs terminals. I certainly will play Contraband as the only +buy on boards with options (e.g. Province/Fairgrounds), but nonetheles, +buy is just weak on its own. You can build decks around draw, and sometimes even +actions. You cannot build decks around +buy.

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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2015, 12:53:57 pm »
0

I don't think the issue is building a deck "around" +Buy.  With adequate +Action support, gaining a card via an action (as opposed to buying it) is usually a lot stronger, especially if possible to gain & play on the same turn.

The real issue to me is tempo.  Usually there are better 5-cost cards in the kingdom, but not too many that give a strong spike of economy and +Buy at the same time and not at the cost of an action.  Counterfeit of course fits the bill, but again Counterfeit>>>Contraband.  Adding Contraband first can allow the overall deck-development speed to rise faster because of the flexibility in gaining multiple engine parts or big economy.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2015, 06:11:07 pm »
0

I don't think the issue is building a deck "around" +Buy.  With adequate +Action support, gaining a card via an action (as opposed to buying it) is usually a lot stronger, especially if possible to gain & play on the same turn.

The real issue to me is tempo.  Usually there are better 5-cost cards in the kingdom, but not too many that give a strong spike of economy and +Buy at the same time and not at the cost of an action.  Counterfeit of course fits the bill, but again Counterfeit>>>Contraband.  Adding Contraband first can allow the overall deck-development speed to rise faster because of the flexibility in gaining multiple engine parts or big economy.

Contraband is not a bad card, but how much does it realistically spike your deck? Say we have 12 cards (2 silvers, 7 C, 3E). How often will Contraband actually spike your deck? With Contraband our average hand goes up to 5.38, with silver it is 5. In either case, you will hit 5 most hands. Sure you will have some $6 and $7 spikes ... but for those to be valuable you need to be able to either buy useful stuff at $3 & $4 (so why not get the first one going a turn earlier by skipping the Contraband?)  or you need some $6 or $7 that is worth it to spike early (Forge comes to mind). Of course, if you are trying to spike for a big card like Altar, chances are that you will be denied buying it.

Contraband is slightly more more efficient than Silver at driving $5 hands and a decent bit better at driving $6 hands. However it is worse at driving $6 hands than golds (which have no buy restrictions). Unless you have a lot of options or you really need the +buy (again Fairgrounds is a good example of this), Contraband is a card that provides coin slightly better than silver for its space and slightly better than gold for its cost. If space is cheap (e.g. Xroads/Great hall/Iw) then Silver likely wins out. If coin is cheap (e.g. Quarry is out) then Gold wins out (if something else doesn't).

Cards that provide cash as a big part of their benefit will always get stuck here. Silvers are 3 and golds are 6. Cache, Venture, and Contraband thus tend to be only good when their secondary effects - not the coin they produce - is what you are after. This is why Cache/Duke does well, Venture excels on copper trashed boards with curses, and Contraband when that +buy is really big. Getting them just for a few more coins in hand, awfully hard to beat Silver or Gold.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2015, 02:39:46 am »
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Contraband should have provided +$4. :)
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2015, 08:32:51 am »
+1

This is far from trivial, but all of these have plenty of alternatives. Workshop used to be consistently undervalued by the community because they were all trained to go +buy when you could get a lot of the function of 2 from Wshop more effectively. Smoothing out coin can be done by having many options for cards (e.g. a rich engine environment with Hunting grounds, Smithy, Bazaar, and Wandering Minstrel), but returning cards to deck (e.g. Count, Courtyard), banking coin tokens, and a few other odds and ends. Scoring VP, well that is harder, but with some TfB, Goons, Monument, Opost, alt-VP, and a few other tricks this is also doable.

Obviously there are a few niche cards that will help you pick up components, gain Duchies, or take VP chips, but +Buy is a lot more common than those, and you can just consider those effectively "Virtual +Buy" for the sake of this discussion if it really helps you. The point I'm making is without +Buy (or these other things), in the absence of other payload engines are often just not viable. You either need +Buy / gaining to build an engine quickly enough to use it, or you need +Buy to have a payload of more than one Province a turn, for an engine to be viable. Many exceptions to this rule do exist, I know, but usually that involves a payload similar to "1 Province per turn + a strong Attack per turn" or the engine on the board is easier to build than anything else.

Quote
If you mean +action to be villages, sure, but villages are often overrated. If by +actions you mean anything with +1 or more actions on it and then ones that are effectively that (e.g. Tr, Prssn, Kc, Rc), then no.

Okay, you go ahead and try and build an engine with terminal draw and no Villages. Lemme know how that goes for you. I mean, ignoring Village Idiot scenarios where new players buy several Villages instead of real cards out of a pathological fear of any terminal collision ever, Villages are really important and their scarcity often is the sole determining factor in the viability of an engine.

Quote
Again look at the knights. Dame Molly is +2 actions and costs $5. Sir Marten is $4 with +2 buys. Of all the bonuses, why is +buy on the cheap Knight if not for balance?

Worker's village vs Bazaar suggest that +1 buy is worth less than $1 coin. Wv vs Lost City likewise suggests that 1 card is worth more than 1 buy.

I don't think you understand how cost works in Dominion at all, actually. Cost is only somewhat correlated with card strength. Cost in Dominion is saying how accessible the card should be, not how important it is. Cost dictates when you can buy a card - you can buy $2s at nearly any time, $4s you can only take one of in the first shuffle, $5s usually take a shuffle to obtain, etc. Cards with lower cost are easier to obtain multiple copies of, etc. For example, Chapel is one of the strongest cards in the game, but it costs $2. Why? Because it should be accessible to every player on either turn of their first shuffle, and because buying multiple Chapel doesn't make any sense. Does this mean heavy trashing is the worst strategy in the game, and is less important than looking at the top of your deck and removing Victory cards? Hell no.

Cards that give extra Buys are less important in the very early game and thus you're already dissuaded from purchasing them early. If you don't have an extra buy, they might as well cost everything in your hand, so cards you only need to buy early can cost nothing since their "real" cost is the use of your only Buy. And once you have them, it's only occasionally that you need to stack up a ton of extra Buys. This is why a lot of +Buy cards aren't expensive, not because they aren't important, but because when you need extra Buys you're spending all of your Buy phase resources on the card anyway, and because there's less benefit to spamming many +Buy cards than spamming +Cards cards.

Cards that give +Cards cost more, because you want a lot of them, especially in an engine which is more likely to have cards with +Buy, so the cost plays more of a factor in ensuring their scarcity.

Quote
+buy is great for engines, but it is not close to necessary to engines.

Engines need payload to be worth it. Ultimately, in many circumstances, engines take longer to set up than terminal draw Big Money takes to fire up, so you need some incentive to build an engine. The use of an Attack every turn plus VP gaining every turn is one way to do it. Gaining multiple Provinces a turn through +Buy is another. Being able to set up the engine quickly with gaining / +Buy can offset the speed advantage terminal draw BM has. In that sense, I've looked at many boards, seen a lack of +Buy / way to gain multiple cards a turn, and concluded "I can't get the engine to work" nearly as often as I've done the same due to a lack of Villages.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2015, 08:35:42 am »
0

I think +buy is low on this list of things engines need.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2015, 01:42:17 pm »
0

We're always discussing engines like it's a well defined term.

I think most players have an idea of what an engine is, but that we couldn't come up with a single sentence that accurately describes it with no edge cases that everybody can agree on.

So when you say "an engine needs X", it's unclear what we're actually talking about in the first place, let alone whether it actually needs X.

There are no engines, only strategies. Buying only Treasure and VP cards is a strategy you can try in any kingdom. But there are many other strategies, often within the same kingdom. And many of those strategies benefit from the same things:
- Getting rid of cards with little use that clutter your deck (trashing)
- Getting a lot of beneficial cards (gaining, note that +buy also leads to gaining)
- Playing your good cards more often (than your bad cards) (sifting, cycling, +actions)
- Hampering your opponents by attacking them

Any of the above is helpful for many strategies.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2015, 02:15:32 pm »
0

Chris:

There are many engine options beside gainers and +buys. You can add in chip cards (Monument, Goons, Bishop), alt-VP (just about anything, but certainly Nobles, Vineyards, and Colonies), attacks (e.g. mass Rabble), fast setup (e.g. Magpie, Hunting Party, Stables), and a few other odd tricks (e.g. Masquerade, Farmland).  This is well over half the boards in Dominion.

+buy is certainly nice, but it is far, far less important to engines than:
the ability to play multiple cards (even Xroads or Nec)
the ability to draw more than 5 cards
the ability to increase reliability (mass gain components, trash dead weight, or sift)

Dominion is much, much more a game of you need a good reason not to go engine if it is remotely possible.

Quote
Okay, you go ahead and try and build an engine with terminal draw and no Villages. Lemme know how that goes for you. I mean, ignoring Village Idiot scenarios where new players buy several Villages instead of real cards out of a pathological fear of any terminal collision ever, Villages are really important and their scarcity often is the sole determining factor in the viability of an engine.
Done it many times. The most fun was Embassy, Moneylender, Venture, Hop, and Farmland. Trashed down the coppers and pretty reliably I could draw deck with the treasures, gain Venture/Gold/Embassy with the Hop, and the trash gold or Farmland when buying Farmland (or just buy a Province).

Lots of cards - like Hparty, Stables, Pool, and Alchemist can easily manage an engine without villages. Even more cards can manage it as part of some combo (e.g. Apprentice/Market Square, Menage/Oasis).

We're always discussing engines like it's a well defined term.

I think most players have an idea of what an engine is, but that we couldn't come up with a single sentence that accurately describes it with no edge cases that everybody can agree on.

So when you say "an engine needs X", it's unclear what we're actually talking about in the first place, let alone whether it actually needs X.

There are no engines, only strategies. Buying only Treasure and VP cards is a strategy you can try in any kingdom. But there are many other strategies, often within the same kingdom. And many of those strategies benefit from the same things:
- Getting rid of cards with little use that clutter your deck (trashing)
- Getting a lot of beneficial cards (gaining, note that +buy also leads to gaining)
- Playing your good cards more often (than your bad cards) (sifting, cycling, +actions)
- Hampering your opponents by attacking them

Any of the above is helpful for many strategies.

I think a good definition of engine is a deck designed to be able to rapidly and repeatedly play many newly gained cards.

This eliminates a lot of edge casing - golden card decks do not repeatedly play newly gained cards. Top deck combos - like Kc/Scheme do not rapidly play new cards unless they are engines.

It also captures some of the dynamics unique to engines - the hypergrowth phase when the engine starts to click. The need for fewer duplicate cards (like Militia). And even things like the importance of action balance and card balance.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2015, 02:16:14 pm »
0

I have previously never bought royal seal  but I have just played a game which makes me majorly rethink that with bakers and traveling fair  there was at least 3 times I payed 2 coin tokens in order to get the top decking effect so I think that next time royal seal is out I will have to give it a try I think in an engine  deck it could be very good when you topdeck the 2 pieces you need to start your engine going
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2015, 06:16:53 am »
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Problem is: Most good engine pieces aside from villages cost $5.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2015, 06:40:04 am »
0

I think IGG is underrated. Saying Relic might be better than IGG sounds crazy in my mind. An IGG rush is very hard to counter. You need a fast engine that can get six Provinces or five Provinces and one Estate. Even though people hate IGG rushes almost as much as Rebuild, there is no point in denying that it is a good strategy.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2015, 07:38:17 am »
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I think IGG is underrated. Saying Relic might be better than IGG sounds crazy in my mind. An IGG rush is very hard to counter. You need a fast engine that can get six Provinces or five Provinces and one Estate. Even though people hate IGG rushes almost as much as Rebuild, there is no point in denying that it is a good strategy.

It's not that hard to counter. If there's no cursing or trashing, it's significantly harder, but the challenge is not getting six Provinces before you run out of time, it's making an engine work at all when you have a lot of junk in your deck.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2015, 09:03:47 am »
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IGG is only fast when both players rush it; otherwise it is very hard to end the game in even 20 turns with it. It actually gives the engine player a little more time if they can trash as they go with Upgrade or Junk Dealer or something.

Relic is a lot better than you realize.
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2015, 06:46:14 pm »
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I think +buy is low on this list of things engines need.
if there are no plus buys a village smithy engine will need 5 turns to draw the whole deck 2 villages and 3 smithys with a perfect shuffle and you will need another coin to get to 8 plus more villages if you want to draw your deck with three provinces and a silver you need 5 smithys and 4 villages and 1 turn on a silver that's turn 10 when you buy provinces thru turn 14 with perfect reshuffle I am not such a nerd that I know the odds of getting that perfect shuffle but I would think it would be low so if u miss 1 that's 15 turns slower than bm smithy which defeats the purpose of an engine which is to win you the game 
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2015, 09:01:58 pm »
0

I think +buy is low on this list of things engines need.
if there are no plus buys a village smithy engine will need 5 turns to draw the whole deck 2 villages and 3 smithys with a perfect shuffle and you will need another coin to get to 8 plus more villages if you want to draw your deck with three provinces and a silver you need 5 smithys and 4 villages and 1 turn on a silver that's turn 10 when you buy provinces thru turn 14 with perfect reshuffle I am not such a nerd that I know the odds of getting that perfect shuffle but I would think it would be low so if u miss 1 that's 15 turns slower than bm smithy which defeats the purpose of an engine which is to win you the game
Engines are rarely faster to four provinces than unopposed BM.  Engines are generally better because they can reliably attack BM and have more endgame control.  Now, +buy can help get an engine up and running faster, and it aids with endgame control.  However, gainers can be used in place of +buy (or in addition to it).  If there is no way to gain more than one card per turn (very rare), I would not like the prospects for an engine (but it could still be viable with alt VP or strong enough attacks).
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Re: 5 cost treasures
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2015, 09:48:15 pm »
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I think +buy is low on this list of things engines need.
if there are no plus buys a village smithy engine will need 5 turns to draw the whole deck 2 villages and 3 smithys with a perfect shuffle and you will need another coin to get to 8 plus more villages if you want to draw your deck with three provinces and a silver you need 5 smithys and 4 villages and 1 turn on a silver that's turn 10 when you buy provinces thru turn 14 with perfect reshuffle I am not such a nerd that I know the odds of getting that perfect shuffle but I would think it would be low so if u miss 1 that's 15 turns slower than bm smithy which defeats the purpose of an engine which is to win you the game

Coppers aren't very good payload. You need more than just +buy to make that deck better than BM.
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