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[mee]

I have not written any strategy articles and I am not doing one here I just want to note some major changes that barrow a 0 costing event has on the game
1) as with baker it gives everyone the opportunity to open with a 5$ card
2)in order to buy a province you only need 7$
true that the money density is higher for a 7$ 4 card hand but this means if you have an engine drawing your whole deck you don't need to buy any additional money
3)for big money it has 2 advantages  the previous reason of you only need to get to 7 and a bm strategy should be able to do that even in a slogish game and it also helps with those really annoying 5$ hands to get a gold and break that cycle of to many 5$ hands (I don't know if this is a usual phenomena as I usually try to not do bm and I haven't played 1000s of games but It happens to me a significant amount of times I go bm I would also like to hear your feedback on that)

[DG]

How many people have used borrow because they want one card less in their next hand (and don't care about the coin)?

[sc0UT]

For the ppl who don't know the event card.

Borrow Wiki

[jomini]

How many people have used borrow because they want one card less in their next hand (and don't care about the coin)?

Well I cared about the coin, but I utterly frustrated an opponent by making his Pillages really expensive coppers. We both had engines and he was set up to buy a Pillage + Province each turn and play the Pillage the next turn. Minion has such a ridiculously weaker attack than Pillage's attack that inducing it via Borrow would be worth it even without using the coin.

I could also see a few combos like Menage/Top decker or Chouse/cheap non-terminal +buy that would be actively helped by -1 card in at least some situations even without the coin. I haven't done Possession with Adventures yet, but I imagine that Borrow is also a tactical play there.

[Marcory]

One possibility: you played Navigator and revealed two terminals. You make one of the terminals  be the 5th card of your deck, and then Borrow so you don't draw it.

[werothegreat]

One possibility: you played Navigator and revealed two terminals. You make one of the terminals  be the 5th card of your deck, and then Borrow so you don't draw it.

This one rather stretches the imagination: who's going to actually buy a Navigator?

[faust]

One possibility: you played Navigator and revealed two terminals. You make one of the terminals  be the 5th card of your deck, and then Borrow so you don't draw it.

This one rather stretches the imagination: who's going to actually buy a Navigator?

Especially in a game where you apparently have too many terminals...

[Marcory]

Maybe it was given to you by Messenger; maybe it's the only $4 in a Procession path; maybe it's a 4-player game where building an engine is difficult; who knows?

But are you seriously questioning a viable edge-case on the grounds of plausibility?

[drsteelhammer]

Different edge-case: Your Mountebank is one of the four last cards in the draw pile

[Awaclus]

One possibility: you played Navigator and revealed two terminals. You make one of the terminals  be the 5th card of your deck, and then Borrow so you don't draw it.

This one rather stretches the imagination: who's going to actually buy a Navigator?

It's decent with Royal Seal when there's nothing better going on.

[jomini]

One possibility: you played Navigator and revealed two terminals. You make one of the terminals  be the 5th card of your deck, and then Borrow so you don't draw it.

This one rather stretches the imagination: who's going to actually buy a Navigator?

Oh, I don't know maybe anyone using Mystic or Herald. You know two pretty nice cards that get phenomenally better when they pick up that huge reliability boost of knowing the top few cards of your deck.

In like manner, pretty much anything that cares about top deck order is reason to consider adding a Navigator to an engine - FarmV (make sure you skip a few green every time), Golem (skip the coppers & estates), Wishing Well (make them more into labs after they run out and your deck gets diverse from green), Journeyman (skip more stuff), Sage (skip the low cost stuff, get the card you need first).

I mean seriously there are near uncountable numbers of possible Dominion games, is it that implausible that someone might buy a Navigator as an early game accelerator planning to build a Herald engine later?

[Hugovj]

I mean seriously there are near uncountable numbers of possible Dominion games, is it that implausible that someone might buy a Navigator as an early game accelerator planning to build a Herald engine later?

Yes.

[ehunt]

yall im pretty sure wero's post was a joke.

the point of the joke was, edge cases for when you would actually want to make a move that ordinarily seems strange, as frequently asked for in the puzzle section of this board, typically involve highly unrealistic assumptions. for humor, wero, to mock the-often derided Navigator card, treated "it's a good board for a Navigator buy" as being on the same level as such an assumption.

[werothegreat]

One possibility: you played Navigator and revealed two terminals. You make one of the terminals  be the 5th card of your deck, and then Borrow so you don't draw it.

This one rather stretches the imagination: who's going to actually buy a Navigator?

Oh, I don't know maybe anyone using Mystic or Herald. You know two pretty nice cards that get phenomenally better when they pick up that huge reliability boost of knowing the top few cards of your deck.

In like manner, pretty much anything that cares about top deck order is reason to consider adding a Navigator to an engine - FarmV (make sure you skip a few green every time), Golem (skip the coppers & estates), Wishing Well (make them more into labs after they run out and your deck gets diverse from green), Journeyman (skip more stuff), Sage (skip the low cost stuff, get the card you need first).

I mean seriously there are near uncountable numbers of possible Dominion games, is it that implausible that someone might buy a Navigator as an early game accelerator planning to build a Herald engine later?

The problem with all of those is that you need a Village to pull it off.  For what you're using it for, Scout (*shudder*) is actually better at doing that.

[Marcory]

Here's an example of a plausible hand in a plausible kingdom.

Soldier, Peasant, Gold, Curse, Estate. You don't want to get behind in the Traveler race, so you don't want to discard your Travelers with the Navigator, and you want to be able to play both of them

The reason you bought Navigator on this board is to accelerate your Travelers, and there are multiple Villages on this board; you just happened not to draw one this hand.

(Btw, Wero, I know that your initial post was a joke, which is why I +1'd it).

[jomini]

One possibility: you played Navigator and revealed two terminals. You make one of the terminals  be the 5th card of your deck, and then Borrow so you don't draw it.

This one rather stretches the imagination: who's going to actually buy a Navigator?

Oh, I don't know maybe anyone using Mystic or Herald. You know two pretty nice cards that get phenomenally better when they pick up that huge reliability boost of knowing the top few cards of your deck.

In like manner, pretty much anything that cares about top deck order is reason to consider adding a Navigator to an engine - FarmV (make sure you skip a few green every time), Golem (skip the coppers & estates), Wishing Well (make them more into labs after they run out and your deck gets diverse from green), Journeyman (skip more stuff), Sage (skip the low cost stuff, get the card you need first).

I mean seriously there are near uncountable numbers of possible Dominion games, is it that implausible that someone might buy a Navigator as an early game accelerator planning to build a Herald engine later?

The problem with all of those is that you need a Village to pull it off.  For what you're using it for, Scout (*shudder*) is actually better at doing that.

Umm, Herald is a village, by definition Herald/Navigator has a village on the board. Golem/Nav and FarmV/NavScout are also village combos. Yeah Mystic requires a village, but then Mystic/Village/Nav is up there with Grand Markets for efficiency.


Scout is not a bad buy with Mystic and I have done decently with it using Herald; while Nav is terminal it also comes with +$2 which means it doesn't tank your early game with a lot of sub-$5 hands. Like anything else, there are boards where +actions are non-existent (not even Trusty Steed) and boards where +actions are trivial (e.g. Champion or most Kc boards). When top deck ordering is important, Navigator is good. Normally that means engine (which means village most often) and some fraction of Navigator boards make it a good buy.

[werothegreat]

But you want to use Navigator's top-deck-looking before you use Herald.  You're trying to use Navigator to make sure Herald goes off properly, because if it doesn't, it isn't even a village anyway.  And as I said, Scout does this better since it can always be played before Herald.

[jomini]

But you want to use Navigator's top-deck-looking before you use Herald.  You're trying to use Navigator to make sure Herald goes off properly, because if it doesn't, it isn't even a village anyway.  And as I said, Scout does this better since it can always be played before Herald.

You have to play a village before the first Nav; for Herald it need not even be this big - if you hit a Nav with your first play (so it does not function as a village), you can then stack cards to let your next Herald be a village. If you need cash anyways, then Nav is a no brainer for a Herald deck - it doesn't give you a dead card like a gold and makes the Herald or two after the you play Nav vastly more efficient.

It is arguable if Scout does this better for Herald - on the one hand Scout is non-terminal (so you get village when you hit it) and as noted you can play it before the first Herald has to hit anything. On the other hand, Scout has no buying power and looks at one card fewer so it is much harder to setup two Heralds to hit cantrips.

[LastFootnote]

I could see Navigator+Herald being a thing. But Navigator+Mystic/Wishing Well/Farming Village/etc. doesn't really seem worth it.

[jomini]

I could see Navigator+Herald being a thing. But Navigator+Mystic/Wishing Well/Farming Village/etc. doesn't really seem worth it.

And this is why the quality of discussion continues to die here. "Worth it" is such a bogus quantity you can basically shut down any fruitful discussion.

Just because a card combination isn't strong enough to build a deck around doesn't mean that the interactions are beneath discussion nor that you should just dump them. You will note in my original post that for FarmV and the like I already specified that we are talking about a pre-existing engine. So say Golem rocks because you have no draw but cantrips, some sifting (e.g. Cellar), and a nice attack like Militia, you can either try to add cash via treasures (which have major problems with them being skipped), other +coin actions (and Militia does nothing the second time you play it but Terminal Silver) or something like Scaling TfB (which are risky and often slow with Golem). Navigator is an extremely nice form of action cash, which is often what your engine wants (e.g. FarmV/Lib/Trashing).

Over 90% of the card interactions are not "worth it" as in some board dominating combo. Somewhere you have to decide things like which source of value gaining do I want to use. Do I go treasure, actions, TfB? For the 90% of card choices that aren't mind numbingly overpowered, it behooves you to actually consider the full value of the card. Sometimes, bad combos are made workable by their low opportunity cost (e.g. Port makes it really easy to turn Mystic/Navigator into something better than activated Conspirators). Sometimes you are just asking yourself is this $4 silver replacement better in my pre-existing FarmV/Journeyman engine worth spending an action.

Navigator gets a bum rap because it is relatively small number of cards that care about top deck ordering and the boards are fiendishly over-invested in discussing deck-defining combos. Yet it gives you good odds of $5 (like any terminal silver), has not insignificant sifting potential in the early game, and is very useful when deck order really does matter. So no, it is not a card with a killer power like trashing or slowing down the other guy and it will never be bought like Steward or even Develop, but it does have a useful place when you are already considering cards that synergize with it.

[werothegreat]

Honestly, I'd rather just have Chancellor.

[LastFootnote]

I could see Navigator+Herald being a thing. But Navigator+Mystic/Wishing Well/Farming Village/etc. doesn't really seem worth it.

And this is why the quality of discussion continues to die here. "Worth it" is such a bogus quantity you can basically shut down any fruitful discussion.

Dude, I was not trying to shut down your discussion. I was just contributing my opinion! I'm sorry it wasn't verbose enough for you, but you ain't gotta be such a jerk about it. An apology would be nice.

I wasn't even dismissing Navigator as worthless! But the main value of Navigator is NOT to reorder your deck. The only reason it can do so is so that you don't have to track the order of cards while you're looking at them! The point of Navigator is to skip bad hands entirely. Playing Navigator as one of your last Actions is practical. Playing it before playing more draw is much less practical. It's not made for that purpose. Usually there's something better to buy at the $4 price point. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but that's the way it is.

EDIT: Navigator/Loan, now there's a nice combo. Navigator/Venture is OK too.

[jomini]

I could see Navigator+Herald being a thing. But Navigator+Mystic/Wishing Well/Farming Village/etc. doesn't really seem worth it.

And this is why the quality of discussion continues to die here. "Worth it" is such a bogus quantity you can basically shut down any fruitful discussion.

Dude, I was not trying to shut down your discussion. I was just contributing my opinion! I'm sorry it wasn't verbose enough for you, but you ain't gotta be such a jerk about it. An apology would be nice.

So let me understand this right. You threw up a worthless comment that was utterly devoid of actual substance using language that routinely shuts down discussions, but hey it is just supposed to be "your opinion" and no one is allowed to take issue with it.

Me saying "And this is why the quality of discussion continues to die here. 'Worth it' is such a bogus quantity you can basically shut down any fruitful discussion." Is likewise stating an opinion. However me stating an opinion is offensive and demands an apology. Or perhaps more simply your opinions are valid however stated and mine are not.


Nothing I said there, mind you, actually speaks, at all, to your motives. I never said you intended to shut down discussion, merely that such comments devoid of substance create an atmosphere where people feel constrained about what is acceptable discussion. I have watched that happen again and again on threads on this board, people talk about things that do not cross some utterly arbitrary threshold of likelihood or strength and then along comes somebody who drops a one-liner that ignores the discussion above it and pressure builds to drop the topic.

I neither know nor care what your motive is. Nor do I care how verbose you are (and you'd think if you are going to try to call me out for misreading your intentions, you might have the basic courtesy to not presume to grossly misstate mine). What I care about is the result of your comments. Much like how this appeal to your alleged victimhood will play out. I could not give a rat's ass if you feel aggrieved by my statement of my opinion, but this board (and frankly much of life in general) could do with far less clamoring about what is "mean" or not of the right "form" and more focus on substance. This juvenile crying about somebody taking issue with what you say is bad for board culture and will serve you horridly in real life as well.

But the main value of Navigator is NOT to reorder your deck.

Who cares? There has been an ever growing body of cards that do care about reordering your cards and Nav can be extremely useful with them. Even with a simple village, Nav greatly increases your deck reliability. E.g. your engine is Bank/Border village/Hunting grounds/+buy tossing in a Nav is much better than a silver - it allows you to convert Bv/Bv/X/C/C hands into Bv -> Nav -> Bv (draw Hground) -> Hground.

And deck reliability is worth paying for on some boards. Scheme, after all, does nothing once you have a deck drawing engine ... except increasing its reliability. Yet I will gladly drop $6 and 2 buys on Schemes on most such boards. 

The only reason it can do so is so that you don't have to track the order of cards while you're looking at them! The point of Navigator is to skip bad hands entirely. Playing Navigator as one of your last Actions is practical. Playing it before playing more draw is much less practical.

Practicality is highly variable. If I'm playing FarmV/Wt, you better believe that Nav is one of the best terminal silvers that can be added. It is far more "practical" than silver or competing terminal silvers (like Duchess, a second Militia, Woodcutters/Nomad camp, a Cutpurse if coppers were trashed, Black market after the Bm pile has been sucked a bit dry, etc.)

Sure, reordering is usually weak, which is why we are specifically talking about using it in decks where you are already getting the complement card for some other reason (e.g. Golem is the only village on the board).

It's not made for that purpose. Usually there's something better to buy at the $4 price point. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but that's the way it is.

and in other news water is wet and the pope is Catholic.

We get that, 50% of dominion cards are weaker than the average dominion card! Your last sentence can handily be said for over a third of the $4 cards.

The real trouble with Nav is not the reordering being weak, it is that it gives coin as its primary benefit. Coin is always available in the kingdom as gold or silver. When you can get silver for $3 (and need no action) or gold for $6, anything becomes pretty often "not worth it". If we had a kingdom card that was always out which said "trash one card" it would drastically increase the number of $4 trashers that generally has something better for you to buy.

This is why Nav/Venture actually isn't that hot on its own - you need 40% of your deck to be green before an average Nav -> Venture play will let you skip more than a single green (which makes Nav basically an activated Conspirator + Scout). Sure you can arrange your Ventures to line up ... but at the end of the day you are just getting cash and you can spend $8 and 2 draw slots to get up to $5 ... or just buy a Plat. It has to be an awfully barren board for Venture/Nav to be your goto.

[LastFootnote]

I could see Navigator+Herald being a thing. But Navigator+Mystic/Wishing Well/Farming Village/etc. doesn't really seem worth it.

And this is why the quality of discussion continues to die here. "Worth it" is such a bogus quantity you can basically shut down any fruitful discussion.

Dude, I was not trying to shut down your discussion. I was just contributing my opinion! I'm sorry it wasn't verbose enough for you, but you ain't gotta be such a jerk about it. An apology would be nice.

So let me understand this right. You threw up a worthless comment that was utterly devoid of actual substance using language that routinely shuts down discussions, but hey it is just supposed to be "your opinion" and no one is allowed to take issue with it.

Me saying "And this is why the quality of discussion continues to die here. 'Worth it' is such a bogus quantity you can basically shut down any fruitful discussion." Is likewise stating an opinion. However me stating an opinion is offensive and demands an apology. Or perhaps more simply your opinions are valid however stated and mine are not.

We're both allowed to state our opinions. In my opinion, you're being insulting, which is what I take issue with.

And apparently my remark actually sparked more discussion between us, rather than shutting discussion down! Look at that! However, I'm not really interested in reading the rest of your post because of your verbal abuse. Hopefully somebody else can step in and continue this fascinating discussion about Navigator in this thread about Borrow.

[eHalcyon]

I could see Navigator+Herald being a thing. But Navigator+Mystic/Wishing Well/Farming Village/etc. doesn't really seem worth it.

And this is why the quality of discussion continues to die here. "Worth it" is such a bogus quantity you can basically shut down any fruitful discussion.

Dude, I was not trying to shut down your discussion. I was just contributing my opinion! I'm sorry it wasn't verbose enough for you, but you ain't gotta be such a jerk about it. An apology would be nice.

So let me understand this right. You threw up a worthless comment that was utterly devoid of actual substance using language that routinely shuts down discussions, but hey it is just supposed to be "your opinion" and no one is allowed to take issue with it.

Me saying "And this is why the quality of discussion continues to die here. 'Worth it' is such a bogus quantity you can basically shut down any fruitful discussion." Is likewise stating an opinion. However me stating an opinion is offensive and demands an apology. Or perhaps more simply your opinions are valid however stated and mine are not.

We're both allowed to state our opinions. In my opinion, you're being insulting, which is what I take issue with.

And apparently my remark actually sparked more discussion between us, rather than shutting discussion down! Look at that! However, I'm not really interested in reading the rest of your post because of said verbal abuse. Hopefully somebody else can step in and continue this fascinating discussion about Navigator in this thread about Borrow.

I don't know about abusive, but incredibly condescending for sure.  Wanting to foster and encourage more discussion is a worthy cause, but the attitude and utter verbosity actively works against that goal.  I hope that it's unintentional.