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[jaybeez]

https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20151103/log.0.1446593291365.txt

I don't think either me or my opponent played this game particularly well.  I just felt like posting it because Transmute is clearly what makes the difference here.  And those games are so rare!  At least it seems that way.

[LastFootnote]

It's like I always say: Transmute is great as long as you have something else you want Potions for.

[Mic Qsenoch]

...and tons of draw but no payload terminals, and cursing without any other trashing, and no other way to score more than 1 Province a turn

[LastFootnote]

...and tons of draw but no payload terminals, and cursing without any other trashing, and no other way to score more than 1 Province a turn

Right. Isn't that what I said? 

But in all seriousness, if there's some other Potion card(s) you want a bunch of, Transmute is a pretty spiffy way to get rid of Estates. I mean 3 Golds is a nice economy boost and then you never have to spend a buy on Treasures. I'm not saying it's always going to be the best Estate trashing on the board, but it's good. And then you can pick up a few Duchies late-game.

[jaybeez]

Yeah but Mic Q is more on the right track.  Even when there are other Potion cards you want, it's usually better to just grab more of those than to stop for a Transmute.  I posted this game because it's one of the extremely rare instances of where it really makes sense to pick up Transmute specifically to get Transmute, and not as a consolation prize for having a hand with Potion but not enough money to buy a better Potion-cost card.

[LastFootnote]

Yeah but Mic Q is more on the right track.  Even when there are other Potion cards you want, it's usually better to just grab more of those than to stop for a Transmute.  I posted this game because it's one of the extremely rare instances of where it really makes sense to pick up Transmute specifically to get Transmute, and not as a consolation prize for having a hand with Potion but not enough money to buy a better Potion-cost card.

Hm, I disagree. Why do you think that another copy of say Apothecary is a better idea than a card that turns your Estates into Golds?

[Mic Qsenoch]

Yeah but Mic Q is more on the right track.  Even when there are other Potion cards you want, it's usually better to just grab more of those than to stop for a Transmute.  I posted this game because it's one of the extremely rare instances of where it really makes sense to pick up Transmute specifically to get Transmute, and not as a consolation prize for having a hand with Potion but not enough money to buy a better Potion-cost card.

Hm, I disagree. Why do you think that another copy of say Apothecary is a better idea than a card that turns your Estates into Golds?

Because in many (most?) cases another Apothecary is going to help you play some terminal action(s) that is better than turning Estates into Golds. And just as importantly the extra Apothecaries are helping your turns be consistently good. Or maybe your Estates are already gone.

Sometimes you spend early turns with Potion buying the SPs and Alchemists because you're worried about the split, by the time those are gone your deck may already have a sufficient number of other terminals, and even in the case where you wouldn't mind a Transmute you just can't fit it in.

I don't disagree with the point that Transmute is better if you already have the Potion, but it usually takes a lack of other strong terminals on the board for the Transmute to work into these engines.

[LastFootnote]

Well maybe I have a more fundamental misunderstanding of your general strategy. Let's say that you're playing a board where an engine is possible and the only way to trash Estates is Remodel. And say there's some minor engine component available to remodel Estates into, like Wishing Well. Would you normally get a Remodel fairly early to trash your Estates?

[Mic Qsenoch]

Well maybe I have a more fundamental misunderstanding of your general strategy. Let's say that you're playing a board where an engine is possible and the only way to trash Estates is Remodel. And say there's some minor engine component available to remodel Estates into, like Wishing Well. Would you normally get a Remodel fairly early to trash your Estates?

Sure, I think so. I don't have an idea of how often, but it could be the thing to do.

[LastFootnote]

Well maybe I have a more fundamental misunderstanding of your general strategy. Let's say that you're playing a board where an engine is possible and the only way to trash Estates is Remodel. And say there's some minor engine component available to remodel Estates into, like Wishing Well. Would you normally get a Remodel fairly early to trash your Estates?

Sure, I think so. I don't have an idea of how often, but it could be the thing to do.

Well explain to me the difference with Transmute. I mean obviously getting a Gold is different from getting a $2-$4 engine component, since it's a stop card. But it's a pretty good stop card, especially considering you're trashing an Estate for it rather than paying the high premium of $6. And it means that you probably don't need to worry about your economy, at least until the end game.

I guess I can see the point of not wanting to sacrifice one of your Potion buys on Transmute, but that seems to be more a case of opportunity cost. That cost can be mitigated a lot with +Buy, since you can spend your Potion on a Transmute and your $ on some other engine component. That's often a better move than just buying e.g. an Apothecary, I'll wager, unless you have a really compelling reason to win the Apothecary split. So I would say that Transmute needs +Buy to be at its best, but probably you wanted +Buy for your engine anyway.

I'm not saying that Transmute is always going to be the best Estate trasher on the board, but I'm guessing it's not the worst one as often as common knowledge would have us believe (assuming you have something else to spend your Potion on). Almost certainly there's a period in the middle of the game where you're not playing Transmute because your Estates are gone and you don't yet want to turn your good cards into VP. But that usually happens with Remodel as well, at least in my experience. During that period you're using your Actions on other terminals, and at the end maybe you're transmuting them into Duchies.

[Titandrake]

Well maybe I have a more fundamental misunderstanding of your general strategy. Let's say that you're playing a board where an engine is possible and the only way to trash Estates is Remodel. And say there's some minor engine component available to remodel Estates into, like Wishing Well. Would you normally get a Remodel fairly early to trash your Estates?

Sure, I think so. I don't have an idea of how often, but it could be the thing to do.

Well explain to me the difference with Transmute. I mean obviously getting a Gold is different from getting a $2-$4 engine component, since it's a stop card. But it's a pretty good stop card, especially considering you're trashing an Estate for it rather than paying the high premium of $6. And it means that you probably don't need to worry about your economy, at least until the end game.

This is actually why I agree more with MicQ. Gold is a stop card, and you are getting it too early. Is it a good stop card? Yes, if you're drawing most of your deck every turn. It's still a stop card. Those are bad. Very bad. Very, very surprisingly bad. In my experience, more engine building mistakes come from prioritizing building/cycling too little than too much.

Edit: The difference with Remodel is that Remodel gives you 1 more terminal, that pays itself over time by turning junk (Estate) into components that improve your deck's cycling (WW, Smithy, Village, etc.) Transmute is a terminal that turns your junk (Estate) into payload (Gold), but in an engine you want to get payload as late as possible (ideally the turn before you can use it, or the same turn.) By the time you want payload, you often have better things to do than pick up a Transmute that converts 1 Estate to Gold each turn.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Well maybe I have a more fundamental misunderstanding of your general strategy. Let's say that you're playing a board where an engine is possible and the only way to trash Estates is Remodel. And say there's some minor engine component available to remodel Estates into, like Wishing Well. Would you normally get a Remodel fairly early to trash your Estates?

Sure, I think so. I don't have an idea of how often, but it could be the thing to do.

Well explain to me the difference with Transmute. I mean obviously getting a Gold is different from getting a $2-$4 engine component, since it's a stop card. But it's a pretty good stop card, especially considering you're trashing an Estate for it rather than paying the high premium of $6. And it means that you probably don't need to worry about your economy, at least until the end game.

I guess I can see the point of not wanting to sacrifice one of your Potion buys on Transmute, but that seems to be more a case of opportunity cost. That cost can be mitigated a lot with +Buy, since you can spend your Potion on a Transmute and your $ on some other engine component. That's often a better move than just buying e.g. an Apothecary, I'll wager, unless you have a really compelling reason to win the Apothecary split. So I would say that Transmute needs +Buy to be at its best, but probably you wanted +Buy for your engine anyway.

I'm not saying that Transmute is always going to be the best Estate trasher on the board, but I'm guessing it's not the worst one as often as common knowledge would have us believe (assuming you have something else to spend your Potion on). Almost certainly there's a period in the middle of the game where you're not playing Transmute because your Estates are gone and you don't yet want to turn your good cards into VP. But that usually happens with Remodel as well, at least in my experience. During that period you're using your Actions on other terminals, and at the end maybe you're transmuting them into Duchies.

Echoing Titandrake, the Gold can be quite bad compared to a cheap engine component if reaching the deck drawing stage makes your engine really explode. Then you don't want to delay that at all.

I think the bit about +Buy reflects why Transmute is weak. This scenario where it sounds like a strong purchase takes a lot of conditions: +buy, another engine component that we'd take over our other Potion card, enough money to get both, little enough money that we don't want to take the other engine component + the other Potion card, space in the deck for another terminal, and wanting a Transmute at all. I just don't see it come up a lot.

Transmute has a problem as a trasher/gainer that it only gains stop cards. Unless you're killing Curses (or Hovels I guess) it isn't helping your ability to draw the deck.

Transmute has a problem that whiffing on Estate is worse than with other trashers in the early game. Gaining more Transmutes is not usually appealing, and it's too soon for Duchies. Remodel can have this problem as well, but it's not as bad depending on available $2s (and even Copper to Estate might be okay if you're able to play the Remodel frequently and fix that Estate up).

[LastFootnote]

Good points all around! I'll have to re-re-evaluate my future Transmute purchases.

[scott_pilgrim]

I guess I can see the point of not wanting to sacrifice one of your Potion buys on Transmute, but that seems to be more a case of opportunity cost. That cost can be mitigated a lot with +Buy, since you can spend your Potion on a Transmute and your $ on some other engine component. That's often a better move than just buying e.g. an Apothecary, I'll wager, unless you have a really compelling reason to win the Apothecary split. So I would say that Transmute needs +Buy to be at its best, but probably you wanted +Buy for your engine anyway.

It's not just a matter of needing +buy.  Unless you're willing to get a second potion, you're only getting at most one -cost card per shuffle.  And usually, you really want that card to be whatever made you buy the potion in the first place.  They also tend to be things you want lots of, and often times things you need to win the split for (Scrying Pool, Apothecary, Alchemist).  By getting Transmute instead, you put yourself behind a shuffle (potion-card buying-wise), which can be a big deal since the cards are things you'd like to use fast.  Of course it isn't helped by the fact that SP and Apothecary are crazy strong cards, and Alchemist is pretty strong too when it's cost isn't taken into account, so the competition is usually very appealing.

By the time you're no longer excited about whatever made you buy the potion in the first place (either because the pile is empty or you've already got everything you need), it's probably too late to make good use of Transmute.

There are times when you'll take it, but you really need everything to line up right.  I could see myself getting it if I hit when I'm hoping for Alchemist or Familiar.  Transmute is probably better than most $2's if you don't already have any trashing.