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[Witherweaver]

Am I the only one who things a slider is going to be confusingly opaque to most users?

There should definitely be an option to turn the slider on and off. Maybe also "prefer on" and "prefer off". While we're at it, I have a great new suggestion...

[LastFootnote]

In addition to having fewer checkboxes, this has the advantages of not segmenting the player base and not further complicating the matchmaking algorithms.

Not letting me force VP counter on?  When I and others quit Dominion, the player base will be "segmented" into those who have quit and those who enjoy Concentration.

I doubt that the number of players who quit over this (occasionally having to play without a VP counter) would be large. And any new players wouldn't know any different.

[GendoIkari]

I want a slider with much more precision... as you move from left to right, the odds that your game will have a point counter increase incrementally. At least 100 possible stopping points along the slider, each corresponding to the percentage change that you'll get the point counter. Good luck coding it.

This is exactly what I am suggesting. You can have a million stopping points on the slider if you want. The all represent a float between -1 and +1.
They just don't all come up with a new sentence, probably 7 different sentences is plenty.

It's always nice when someone wishes you luck, but apparently you think this is hard to code. What step exactly would you consider hard?
1) creating a slider with a million positions, reading it's value as a float between -1 and +1.
2) computing the absolute difference between two floats, to feed to your already required fitness function for matchmaking
3) computing the sum of two floats and comparing it to zero, to decide if the point counter is on or off.

I thought you were suggesting a slider with only 3 stops on it; left center and right.

[GendoIkari]

Am I the only one who things a slider is going to be confusingly opaque to most users?

There should definitely be an option to turn the slider on and off. Maybe also "prefer on" and "prefer off". While we're at it, I have a great new suggestion...

[Goo Goo Dolls video]

Fun fact... you know the baby covered in goo on the cover of the album "A Boy Named Goo"? He was one of my best friends in college. He went by the nickname "Goo".

[popsofctown]

In addition to having fewer checkboxes, this has the advantages of not segmenting the player base and not further complicating the matchmaking algorithms.

Not letting me force VP counter on?  When I and others quit Dominion, the player base will be "segmented" into those who have quit and those who enjoy Concentration.

I doubt that the number of players who quit over this (occasionally having to play without a VP counter) would be large. And any new players wouldn't know any different.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.  There are a number of things that can incrementally affect player experience positively or negatively, when they add up, they can lead to quitting.  Some of those things can't be controlled, this can.

"This specific thing, by itself, will not cause outright quitting" is only a useful argument when it's something whose impact is tightly localized to players who are highly invested.  It's valid when they changed the camera rules in a way that annoys players who travel across the country to attend magic tournaments, and it's valid when they release lowbrow champions in league that the pro tier players don't enjoy playing with.  Indeed, "AdamH won't quit over Black Market, therefore, AdamH's rage is not a point against a "prefer black market" button" would be valid since he in particular is super invested, and a lot of the people in this thread are invested enough that they won't quit over a point counter.  I wish I could say myself included, but I'm already dividing my time between Dominion and other things, and am only even here because posting in forums is something I can do while I'm at work, and the f.ds forums are way less shitty than forums for pretty much any other game thing.  There's definitely a lot of people who prefer the point counter, and some of them aren't super veterans, and they are incrementally more likely to leave the game if the vpoff is forced on people to try to consolidate the userbase.

[Witherweaver]

Am I the only one who things a slider is going to be confusingly opaque to most users?

There should definitely be an option to turn the slider on and off. Maybe also "prefer on" and "prefer off". While we're at it, I have a great new suggestion...

[Goo Goo Dolls video]

Fun fact... you know the baby covered in goo on the cover of the album "A Boy Named Goo"? He was one of my best friends in college. He went by the nickname "Goo".

Just make sure you don't tell no one his name.

[GendoIkari]

Am I the only one who things a slider is going to be confusingly opaque to most users?

There should definitely be an option to turn the slider on and off. Maybe also "prefer on" and "prefer off". While we're at it, I have a great new suggestion...

[Goo Goo Dolls video]

Fun fact... you know the baby covered in goo on the cover of the album "A Boy Named Goo"? He was one of my best friends in college. He went by the nickname "Goo".

Just make sure you don't tell no one his name.

The Goo Goo Dolls were liars. They promise not to tell no one his name, and then they go and announce it right in the title of the album.

[Witherweaver]

The Goo Goo Dolls were liars. They promise not to tell no one his name, and then they go and announce it right in the title of the album.

Well, evidently, it was only a nickname!

[LastFootnote]

In addition to having fewer checkboxes, this has the advantages of not segmenting the player base and not further complicating the matchmaking algorithms.

Not letting me force VP counter on?  When I and others quit Dominion, the player base will be "segmented" into those who have quit and those who enjoy Concentration.

I doubt that the number of players who quit over this (occasionally having to play without a VP counter) would be large. And any new players wouldn't know any different.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.  There are a number of things that can incrementally affect player experience positively or negatively, when they add up, they can lead to quitting.  Some of those things can't be controlled, this can.

"This specific thing, by itself, will not cause outright quitting" is only a useful argument when it's something whose impact is tightly localized to players who are highly invested.  It's valid when they changed the camera rules in a way that annoys players who travel across the country to attend magic tournaments, and it's valid when they release lowbrow champions in league that the pro tier players don't enjoy playing with.  Indeed, "AdamH won't quit over Black Market, therefore, AdamH's rage is not a point against a "prefer black market" button" would be valid since he in particular is super invested, and a lot of the people in this thread are invested enough that they won't quit over a point counter.  I wish I could say myself included, but I'm already dividing my time between Dominion and other things, and am only even here because posting in forums is something I can do while I'm at work, and the f.ds forums are way less shitty than forums for pretty much any other game thing.  There's definitely a lot of people who prefer the point counter, and some of them aren't super veterans, and they are incrementally more likely to leave the game if the vpoff is forced on people to try to consolidate the userbase.

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!

But seriously, it's flabbergasting that you would quit playing a game altogether if a tiny percentage of your games didn't have the VP counter. I mean who's the one dealing in absolutes here?

[Kirian]

Am I the only one who things a slider is going to be confusingly opaque to most users?

There should definitely be an option to turn the slider on and off. Maybe also "prefer on" and "prefer off". While we're at it, I have a great new suggestion...

[Goo Goo Dolls video]

Fun fact... you know the baby covered in goo on the cover of the album "A Boy Named Goo"? He was one of my best friends in college. He went by the nickname "Goo".

Also, as I understand it, that song is about an abortion.  And Goko was an abortion.  Making Fun is slowly turning into one.  That's three.

Half Life 3 confirmed!

[popsofctown]

In addition to having fewer checkboxes, this has the advantages of not segmenting the player base and not further complicating the matchmaking algorithms.

Not letting me force VP counter on?  When I and others quit Dominion, the player base will be "segmented" into those who have quit and those who enjoy Concentration.

I doubt that the number of players who quit over this (occasionally having to play without a VP counter) would be large. And any new players wouldn't know any different.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.  There are a number of things that can incrementally affect player experience positively or negatively, when they add up, they can lead to quitting.  Some of those things can't be controlled, this can.

"This specific thing, by itself, will not cause outright quitting" is only a useful argument when it's something whose impact is tightly localized to players who are highly invested.  It's valid when they changed the camera rules in a way that annoys players who travel across the country to attend magic tournaments, and it's valid when they release lowbrow champions in league that the pro tier players don't enjoy playing with.  Indeed, "AdamH won't quit over Black Market, therefore, AdamH's rage is not a point against a "prefer black market" button" would be valid since he in particular is super invested, and a lot of the people in this thread are invested enough that they won't quit over a point counter.  I wish I could say myself included, but I'm already dividing my time between Dominion and other things, and am only even here because posting in forums is something I can do while I'm at work, and the f.ds forums are way less shitty than forums for pretty much any other game thing.  There's definitely a lot of people who prefer the point counter, and some of them aren't super veterans, and they are incrementally more likely to leave the game if the vpoff is forced on people to try to consolidate the userbase.

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!

But seriously, it's flabbergasting that you would quit playing a game altogether if a tiny percentage of your games didn't have the VP counter. I mean who's the one dealing in absolutes here?

What you were proposing could have like a quarter of games without the VP counter.

It wouldn't be an outright decision to quit the game based on that specific fact.  My enjoyment of Dominion might just drop to the point where it easier for me to decide to quit every game but League or quit every game but Hearthstone or one of the other games that I've thought of devoting all my time to in order to master.  How their enjoyment compares to Dominion, for me, depends on the point counter.

[GendoIkari]

I want a slider with much more precision... as you move from left to right, the odds that your game will have a point counter increase incrementally. At least 100 possible stopping points along the slider, each corresponding to the percentage change that you'll get the point counter. Good luck coding it.

This is exactly what I am suggesting. You can have a million stopping points on the slider if you want. The all represent a float between -1 and +1.
They just don't all come up with a new sentence, probably 7 different sentences is plenty.

It's always nice when someone wishes you luck, but apparently you think this is hard to code. What step exactly would you consider hard?
1) creating a slider with a million positions, reading it's value as a float between -1 and +1.
2) computing the absolute difference between two floats, to feed to your already required fitness function for matchmaking
3) computing the sum of two floats and comparing it to zero, to decide if the point counter is on or off.

Oh right, for the bottom half of your post. What's hard (actually impossible) is in making the percentages actually line up with what you ask. By what I was (jokingly) suggesting, putting it in the middle would mean that you should expect half of your games to have the point counter. Putting it 3/4 of the way to the right would mean that 3/4 of your games should have the point counter. This is obviously impossible, because it depends on how many other players choose what settings.

If all other players choose 10%, then you will never get the point counter if you choose less than 90%.

If half of the other players choose 50% and half choose 0%; then if you choose 99%, you'll end up with half of your games having the point counter, not 99% of your games having the point counter.

[LastFootnote]

I guess I think the potential confusion of having a million options otuweighs the marginal benefit of those options. How many people are actually going to put the slider at something other than –1, 0, or 1?

[pst]

I doubt that the number of players who quit over this (occasionally having to play without a VP counter) would be large. And any new players wouldn't know any different.

Don't guess, view the results instead!

For 20% of those taking the poll this is their main reason for not using Playdominion, or for using it less than they would otherwise, or for not being as happy as they would be otherwise when using it.

[LastFootnote]

I doubt that the number of players who quit over this (occasionally having to play without a VP counter) would be large. And any new players wouldn't know any different.

Don't guess, view the results instead!

For 20% of those taking the poll this is their main reason for not using Playdominion, or for using it less than they would otherwise, or for not being as happy as they would be otherwise when using it.

Sure. 20% of f.DS users who cared enough to take the poll. There are of course lots of Making Fun users who aren't also f.DS users.

[Witherweaver]

I would have taken the poll, but the selections weren't sliders.

[GendoIkari]

I doubt that the number of players who quit over this (occasionally having to play without a VP counter) would be large. And any new players wouldn't know any different.

Don't guess, view the results instead!

For 20% of those taking the poll this is their main reason for not using Playdominion, or for using it less than they would otherwise, or for not being as happy as they would be otherwise when using it.

This isn't quite right... the poll doesn't ask just for the reason that they don't play, or play less than they would. It says:

"If you use Playdominion, please pick what you think would benefit your playing there the most."

So it's quite possible that most of the people who picked the VP counter option play just as much as they would otherwise, they just wish that that particular thing would be changed.

*Edit* Sorry, missed your last "or". But the point remains; you don't know how many people fit into which of those 3 categories.

[GendoIkari]

I would have taken the poll, but the selections weren't sliders.

I think the entire game needs to be re-done using nothing but sliders as the interface. When you have to play a card, you use a slider to scroll through the options of cards to play, then when set the slider into place, that card is played. Same goes for choosing a card to buy, etc.

[Awaclus]

Sure. 20% of f.DS users who cared enough to take the poll. There are of course lots of Making Fun users who aren't also f.DS users.

Even if we acknowledge that there are people who disagree, it doesn't mean we should start pre-including a compromise solution in our own wishes because then it's going to be a compromise between that compromise and the other side demanding that they get exactly what they want.

[LastFootnote]

Sure. 20% of f.DS users who cared enough to take the poll. There are of course lots of Making Fun users who aren't also f.DS users.

Even if we acknowledge that there are people who disagree, it doesn't mean we should start pre-including a compromise solution in our own wishes because then it's going to be a compromise between that compromise and the other side demanding that they get exactly what they want.

Who's "the other side"? They sound like jerks.

[blueblimp]

The VP counter options should be: only on, prefer on, prefer off, only off (or, prefer on/off, require preference/don't). I would default to prefer off. "Prefer off" would match you against absolutely anyone available - it's only a preference - but would pair you with an only-off or prefer-off when possible. A mix of prefers with no onlies would result in off.

I expect what would happen is most people would be using the default. If that's "prefer off", then if you select "prefer on" then you're mostly going to be playing without the point counter just because your opponents will mostly be running default settings. That means if you actually want to play with the point counter, you'll need to select "only on". So "prefer on" would be semi-useless if "prefer off" is default.

I don't think "prefer on" would be useless, but whatever; Dominion, the game Dominion, has no point counter. If people tend to have no point counter in online Dominion, that's good, that's the game as intended. The point counter is there to be friendly to people who want it. If you can force it on or off then everyone who cares is happy, and no-one is harmed by having a "prefer on" option available.

I wasn't clear in my previous post, but I was trying to compare to a 3 option solution. My argument is that the proposed 4-option solution effectively works the same as the 3-option solution.

In my opinion, the canonical 3 option solution is for the options to be: yes, no, don't care. The default is "don't care". Players whose choices for "yes" and "no" differ won't be matched with each other. If I remember correctly, this is what isotropic used, where if two "don't care"s were matched it was random whether they had counter on or off. But let's say that if two "don't care"s are matched, that the counter is off, for sake of discussion.

Pros:
- Everybody who cares always plays with the setting they want.
- Everybody who doesn't care or keeps the default can be matched into a game with anybody (making their matchmaking better/faster, hopefully).
- All players, no matter what choice they made, can be matched with players using the default option.
Cons:
- People who have a mild preference for yes must select "yes" or most of their games will be non-counter, but then they can't be matched with people who dislike the counter so strongly that they select "no".

Now, my view is that the con is so mild that it's not worth worrying about. If there are a decent number of players using the client, there will be enough people using the default option that matchmaking can still be fast-ish even if "yes" players can't be matched with "no" players.

But let's say we want to try to fix the con. Does the proposed 4 option solution fix it? I argue that it doesn't.

As proposed, the 4 options are require yes, prefer yes, prefer off, require off. The default is "prefer off", and if two "prefer" players are matched, then the counter is off.

Now, imagine you are a player that prefers counter on but are willing to sometimes play without the counter. You might try selecting "prefer yes". If you do, every time you are matched with a player who didn't change the default selection, you will play without counter. In general, most people don't change default options; let's say 80% stay on default without considering alternatives and 20% make a decision about the option (which could be to stay with "prefer off"). Then as the player who selected "prefer yes", you will play <20% of your games with the point counter.

As the player who prefers to play with counter, if you are playing <20% of your games without counter, you are not happy. I'd expect most such players to switch to "require yes". After all, you can still be matched with everybody except those who chose "require off", and if you believe the poll then <1% of players would choose "require off".

If every player follows the same thought process, then we end up where players pick one of "require yes", "prefer off", "require off". If those are the only options in use, it's exactly equivalent to the 3-option "yes", "don't care", "no" system. Given a choice between two systems which have the same effect, I'd pick the system with fewer options for simplicity.

If you go to a 5-option system ("require yes", "prefer yes", "don't care", "prefer no", "require no"), with "don't care" the default, then it does give more meaningful choices than the 3-option system. Is it worth the complication of having more options? I don't know. My guess is it's not worth it.

In addition to having fewer checkboxes, this has the advantages of not segmenting the player base and not further complicating the matchmaking algorithms.

Not letting me force VP counter on?  When I and others quit Dominion, the player base will be "segmented" into those who have quit and those who enjoy Concentration.

I doubt that the number of players who quit over this (occasionally having to play without a VP counter) would be large. And any new players wouldn't know any different.

Well, according to the poll, 13% of f.ds members say they only play with the VP counter on. If you think it's okay to kick those people off the service, well, consider an alternative of having the point counter on for every game with no choice to do otherwise. You'd drive off the people who voted "I only play with it off". How many of those are there? Zero. 95 people voted, and of those 0 refuse to ever play with the counter. Plus, instead of having to do convoluted matchmaking systems, it's super simple, you just always play with it on.

I respect the arguments that it should be possible to play without the point counter (not least because the game's designer considers that the canonical way to play), but if I worked at MF and in charge of making UI decisions, the decision would be a no-brainer. 85% of people who bother to vote either don't care or prefer the counter on. Having it on is a dealbreaker to 0% of the people. Although this is a poll on a hardcore community, it's safe to assume that the non-hardcore would mostly fall into the "don't care" camp. Why would I spend development resources on making counter-off an option when so many other things about the service don't work? It would go to the "do this sometime later maybe" category of tasks.

[LastFootnote]

Well, according to the poll, 13% of f.ds members say they only play with the VP counter on. If you think it's okay to kick those people off the service, well, consider an alternative of having the point counter on for every game with no choice to do otherwise. You'd drive off the people who voted "I only play with it off". How many of those are there? Zero. 95 people voted, and of those 0 refuse to ever play with the counter. Plus, instead of having to do convoluted matchmaking systems, it's super simple, you just always play with it on.

I respect the arguments that it should be possible to play without the point counter (not least because the game's designer considers that the canonical way to play), but if I worked at MF and in charge of making UI decisions, the decision would be a no-brainer. 85% of people who bother to vote either don't care or prefer the counter on. Having it on is a dealbreaker to 0% of the people. Although this is a poll on a hardcore community, it's safe to assume that the non-hardcore would mostly fall into the "don't care" camp. Why would I spend development resources on making counter-off an option when so many other things about the service don't work? It would go to the "do this sometime later maybe" category of tasks.

Again, that is an f.DS poll and does not necessarily reflect the views of most players.

[kn1tt3r]

I don't think "prefer on" would be useless, but whatever; Dominion, the game Dominion, has no point counter. If people tend to have no point counter in online Dominion, that's good, that's the game as intended. The point counter is there to be friendly to people who want it. If you can force it on or off then everyone who cares is happy, and no-one is harmed by having a "prefer on" option available.

I wasn't clear in my previous post, but I was trying to compare to a 3 option solution. My argument is that the proposed 4-option solution effectively works the same as the 3-option solution.

In my opinion, the canonical 3 option solution is for the options to be: yes, no, don't care. The default is "don't care". Players whose choices for "yes" and "no" differ won't be matched with each other. If I remember correctly, this is what isotropic used, where if two "don't care"s were matched it was random whether they had counter on or off. But let's say that if two "don't care"s are matched, that the counter is off, for sake of discussion.

Pros:
- Everybody who cares always plays with the setting they want.
- Everybody who doesn't care or keeps the default can be matched into a game with anybody (making their matchmaking better/faster, hopefully).
- All players, no matter what choice they made, can be matched with players using the default option.
Cons:
- People who have a mild preference for yes must select "yes" or most of their games will be non-counter, but then they can't be matched with people who dislike the counter so strongly that they select "no".

As I see it, all your Pros also apply to Donald's proposal.
1. Always on / off work the same as in your solution
2. People who don't care stick with "prefer on/off" and they still can be matched with anybody
3. Since default would be some "prefer" ("off" probably) it's still the same.

Additional Cons:
- You should have some bias as the default option. Dominion was designed w/o counter, so the bias should lean to that.
- Most people do have a preferences, but maybe not strong ones. I don't think there are many players who are absoultely neutral on that matter
- For two "don't care"s matched against each other, a coin flip would need to happen, even if both players were actually leaning to the same option.
- Without "prefer"s there is no way for you to give a preference, but still can be matched to anybody.

[pst]

Again, that is an f.DS poll and does not necessarily reflect the views of most players.

But your introspection which led you to "doubt that the number of players who quit over this (occasionally having to play without a VP counter) would be large", that somehow better reflects the views of most players?

I  haven't quit, but I surely don't play as much as I would like, especially not against humans, as the bots are the only ones I can count on not to force me to play something I don't want to play. It is of course not "occasionally" by the way, but about most games.

[Donald X.]

As I see it, all your Pros also apply to Donald's proposal.
1. Always on / off work the same as in your solution
2. People who don't care stick with "prefer on/off" and they still can be matched with anybody
3. Since default would be some "prefer" ("off" probably) it's still the same.

Additional Cons:
- You should have some bias as the default option. Dominion was designed w/o counter, so the bias should lean to that.
- Most people do have a preferences, but maybe not strong ones. I don't think there are many players who are absoultely neutral on that matter
- For two "don't care"s matched against each other, a coin flip would need to happen, even if both players were actually leaning to the same option.
- Without "prefer"s there is no way for you to give a preference, but still can be matched to anybody.

When both players pick "don't care" it would default to off, but otherwise yes, and thanks for having this conversation so that I don't have to.

The entire downside of allowing "prefer on/off" is that it takes more space on the screen where you get to pick it. It doesn't need to pay off very often for me to be happy with that sacrifice.