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[schadd]

i mean i devised this big ol thing based mostly on my perception of the cards, and then it got frackled a little bit because of some function of the qvist page so i decided to redo it from the 'all kingdom cards' dialogue.

Code: [Select]

1.) Masquerade   [X]
2.) Ambassador   [X]
3.) Cultist   [X]
4.) Remake   [X]
5.) Chapel   [X]
6.) Mountebank   [X]
7.) Goons   [X]
8.) Junk Dealer   [X]
9.) Upgrade   [X]
10.) Witch   [X]
11.) Wharf   [X]
12.) Steward   [X]
13.) King's Court   [X]
14.) Young Witch   [X]
15.) Forager   [X]
16.) Tournament   [X]
17.) Rebuild   [X]
18.) Amulet   [X]
19.) Governor   [X]
20.) Grand Market   [X]
21.) Vineyard   [X]
22.) Fishing Village   [X]
23.) Borrow   [X]
24.) Magpie   [X]
25.) Menagerie   [X]
26.) Hunting Party   [X]
27.) Jack of all Trades   [X]
28.) Monument   [X]
29.) Wandering Minstrel   [X]
30.) Margrave   [X]
31.) Border Village   [X]
32.) Minion   [X]
33.) Training   [X]
34.) Swindler   [X]
35.) Fool's Gold   [X]
36.) Alms   [X]
37.) Torturer   [X]
38.) Altar   [X]
39.) Fairgrounds   [X]
40.) Hermit   [X]
41.) Ghost Ship   [X]
42.) Ironmonger   [X]
43.) Bridge Troll   [X]
44.) Urchin   [X]
45.) Page   [X]
46.) Counterfeit   [X]
47.) Scrying Pool   [X]
48.) Marauder   [X]
49.) Swamp Hag   [X]
50.) Bridge   [X]
51.) Familiar   [X]
52.) Horn of Plenty   [X]
53.) Ill-Gotten Gains   [X]
54.) Bandit Camp   [X]
55.) Laboratory   [X]
56.) Militia   [X]
57.) Royal Carriage   [X]
58.) Stables   [X]
59.) Haggler   [X]
60.) Port   [X]
61.) Throne Room   [X]
62.) Lost City   [X]
63.) Distant Lands   [X]
64.) Hireling   [X]
65.) Lost Arts   [X]
66.) Ball   [X]
67.) Caravan   [X]
68.) Peasant   [X]
69.) Ranger   [X]
70.) Smithy   [X]
71.) Giant   [X]
72.) Salvager   [X]
73.) Storyteller   [X]
74.) Watchtower   [X]
75.) Ferry   [X]
76.) Pathfinding   [X]
77.) Sea Hag   [X]
78.) Worker's Village   [X]
79.) Hamlet   [X]
80.) Prince   [X]
81.) Haunted Woods   [X]
82.) Bonfire   [X]
83.) Quest   [X]
84.) Courtyard   [X]
85.) Artificer   [X]
86.) Envoy   [X]
87.) Inheritance   [X]
88.) Plan   [X]
89.) Scheme   [X]
90.) Pillage   [X]
91.) Squire   [X]
92.) Apprentice   [X]
93.) Highway   [X]
94.) Summon   [X]
95.) Peddler   [X]
96.) Spice Merchant   [X]
97.) Guide   [X]
98.) Lighthouse   [X]
99.) Bazaar   [X]
100.) Butcher   [X]
101.) Bishop   [X]
102.) Tactician   [X]
103.) Duke   [X]
104.) Soothsayer   [X]
105.) Duplicate   [X]
106.) Journeyman   [X]
107.) Conspirator   [X]
108.) Doctor   [X]
109.) Council Room   [X]
110.) Rabble   [X]
111.) Plaza   [X]
112.) Count   [X]
113.) Advisor   [X]
114.) Apothecary   [X]
115.) Pilgrimage   [X]
116.) Alchemist   [X]
117.) Catacombs   [X]
118.) Hunting Grounds   [X]
119.) Dungeon   [X]
120.) Miser   [X]
121.) Ironworks   [X]
122.) Warehouse   [X]
123.) Treasure Trove   [X]
124.) Baker   [X]
125.) Embassy   [X]
126.) Ratcatcher   [X]
127.) Herald   [X]
128.) Transmogrify   [X]
129.) Quarry   [X]
130.) Village   [X]
131.) Moneylender   [X]
132.) Horse Traders   [X]
133.) Merchant Guild   [X]
134.) Seaway   [X]
135.) Black Market   [X]
136.) Baron   [X]
137.) Oracle   [X]
138.) Mining Village   [X]
139.) Cutpurse   [X]
140.) Stonemason   [X]
141.) Festival   [X]
142.) Knights   [X]
143.) Nobles   [X]
144.) Coin of the Realm   [X]
145.) Vault   [X]
146.) Relic   [X]
147.) Market   [X]
148.) Merchant Ship   [X]
149.) Gear   [X]
150.) Farming Village   [X]
151.) Wine Merchant   [X]
152.) Crossroads   [X]
153.) Library   [X]
154.) Candlestick Maker   [X]
155.) Oasis   [X]
156.) Inn   [X]
157.) Market Square   [X]
158.) Island   [X]
159.) Jester   [X]
160.) Forge   [X]
161.) Native Village   [X]
162.) Golem   [X]
163.) Venture   [X]
164.) Raze   [X]
165.) Trading Post   [X]
166.) Lookout   [X]
167.) Tunnel   [X]
168.) Vagrant   [X]
169.) Loan   [X]
170.) Remodel   [X]
171.) Fortress   [X]
172.) Wishing Well   [X]
173.) Bank   [X]
174.) Band of Misfits   [X]
175.) Caravan Guard   [X]
176.) Trade   [X]
177.) Hoard   [X]
178.) Graverobber   [X]
179.) Expedition   [X]
180.) Rogue   [X]
181.) Mystic   [X]
182.) Pawn   [X]
183.) Gardens   [X]
184.) Silk Road   [X]
185.) University   [X]
186.) City   [X]
187.) Treasury   [X]
188.) Mission   [X]
189.) Mint   [X]
190.) Cartographer   [X]
191.) Raid   [X]
192.) Harem   [X]
193.) Death Cart   [X]
194.) Travelling Fair   [X]
195.) Cellar   [X]
196.) Feodum   [X]
197.) Walled Village   [X]
198.) Scavenger   [X]
199.) Trader   [X]
200.) Embargo   [X]
201.) Armory   [X]
202.) Poor House   [X]
203.) Procession   [X]
204.) Haven   [X]
205.) Noble Brigand   [X]
206.) Taxman   [X]
207.) Rats   [X]
208.) Possession   [X]
209.) Messenger   [X]
210.) Outpost   [X]
211.) Shanty Town   [X]
212.) Contraband   [X]
213.) Workshop   [X]
214.) Talisman   [X]
215.) Smugglers   [X]
216.) Royal Seal   [X]
217.) Masterpiece   [X]
218.) Philosopher's Stone   [X]
219.) Storeroom   [X]
220.) Farmland   [X]
221.) Nomad Camp   [X]
222.) Expand   [X]
223.) Develop   [X]
224.) Navigator   [X]
225.) Explorer   [X]
226.) Saboteur   [X]
227.) Stash   [X]
228.) Bureaucrat   [X]
229.) Coppersmith   [X]
230.) Trade Route   [X]
231.) Tribute   [X]
232.) Moat   [X]
233.) Save   [X]
234.) Great Hall   [X]
235.) Beggar   [X]
236.) Scouting Party   [X]
237.) Fortune Teller   [X]
238.) Treasure Map   [X]
239.) Spy   [X]
240.) Pearl Diver   [X]
241.) Harvest   [X]
242.) Mandarin   [X]
243.) Pirate Ship   [X]
244.) Thief   [X]
245.) Herbalist   [X]
246.) Mine   [X]
247.) Sage   [X]
248.) Duchess   [X]
249.) Cache   [X]
250.) Counting House   [X]
251.) Chancellor   [X]
252.) Woodcutter   [X]
253.) Adventurer   [X]
254.) Feast   [X]
255.) Secret Chamber   [X]
256.) Transmute   [X]
257.) Scout   [X]because of the format i get it confused with the answer key, which is ww's rankings, but no, it's just some other schmo's ranking of the cards, although keep in mind that schmo is in the low 200s on the isotropish rank. it's a neat little endeavor, ranking cards is what you do in your head seeing each new kingdom sort of, and you get to skip the part where you have to stop thinking and buy two ambassadors, dang. you get to ask yourself the otherwise mundane question of, is crossroads better than vault? huh?

other people seemed excited to do these. what are your thoughts/lists that you've been itching to paste somewhere, or perhaps show to relatives/significant others? (mine is in a notepad document on my desktop titled 'ultraranking')

[Aleimon Thimble]

Yeah, ranking the cards is pretty much the second most awesome thing to do ever (after actually playing Dominion)

Some things I don't completely understand/agree with in your list:

1. Masquerade - it's strong, but is it really the strongest card in existence? It draws and trashes, two important things, but it doesn't do either as well as some other cards do. Of course, the combination of doing those things is what makes Masquerade strong, but personally I feel every other card in your top 10 is even better, and even most in your top 20. There are just a LOT of strong cards in Dominion, heh.

14. Young Witch - according to your list, that would be the third best Curser in the game. I don't know, even if it's cheaper than most others the fact that it doesn't increase your net handsize (or benefits you some other way) hurts a lot, and that doesn't even take the Bane into account. I personally think it's one of the weaker cursers, somewhere in the middle of the entire board.

21. Vineyard - Vineyard is nice, but I would be reluctant to place any kind of alt-VP this high on the list since they're all so board-dependent. If it were just a bit easier to get masses of them you might be right, because it is one of the stronger alt-VP cards, but like all Potion cost cards the opportunity cost is rather high, even if you don't have to pay any coins.

23. Borrow - It's a marginal benefit that causes you to have a marginal detriment next turn. Seems pretty mediocre at best.

93. Highway - really? At the very worst it's a Peddler, for which $5 may be a rather high price but it can still be useful in those cases. At best (in an engine with +Buy) it gives you all sorts of explosive megaturns. 93 seems way too low.

127. Herald - Another crazy and underrated engine card. It's probably in my top 10 overall. You only need to see a Herald cascade so many times until you feel that it's absolutely astonishing.

145. Vault - One of the best sifters that has some pretty awesome combos, and is extremely useful in both engines and slogs. Should probably be top 50 imo.

207. Rats - Be honest, has it ever been more than a trap for you? Most of its benefits only work in theory. Probably one of the worst cards in the game, about on par with Scout and the likes.

222. Expand - In most cases it's kind of overpriced, but it certainly shines on some boards, especially if the other trashing is kinda mediocre. Turning Estates into powerful $5 actions is always a nice feeling, and so is turning Curses into Silvers.

250. Counting House - I've already stated more than once that I think it's very underrated, so I won't bother you with the full details again

[Eran of Arcadia]

23. Borrow - It's a marginal benefit that causes you to have a marginal detriment next turn. Seems pretty mediocre at best.

It won't do much for you most of the time, but every once in a while a marginal increase in coins can be worth a lot.

[Hugovj]

207. Rats - Be honest, has it ever been more than a trap for you? Most of its benefits only work in theory. Probably one of the worst cards in the game, about on par with Scout and the likes.

Yes. Like, every time I bought it. Which isn't often or anything, it's just.. Death Cart/Rats is awesome? Butcher/Rats too, to lesser extent. Other TfB-cards I haven't tried out, but I'm pretty sure some of them will be board-defining combo's on certain boards. Rats isn't the best ever, but it is waaaay better than Scout, Navigator and Thief.

[Aleimon Thimble]

23. Borrow - It's a marginal benefit that causes you to have a marginal detriment next turn. Seems pretty mediocre at best.

It won't do much for you most of the time, but every once in a while a marginal increase in coins can be worth a lot.

I agree, but not nearly enough to justify placing it in the top 30 overall. I wouldn't say Borrow is anywhere near as strong as stuff like Jack, Magpie, Hunting Party or Minion, all cards ranked below Borrow in schadd's list.

207. Rats - Be honest, has it ever been more than a trap for you? Most of its benefits only work in theory. Probably one of the worst cards in the game, about on par with Scout and the likes.

Yes. Like, every time I bought it. Which isn't often or anything, it's just.. Death Cart/Rats is awesome? Butcher/Rats too, to lesser extent. Other TfB-cards I haven't tried out, but I'm pretty sure some of them will be board-defining combo's on certain boards. Rats isn't the best ever, but it is waaaay better than Scout, Navigator and Thief.

Rats does have some halfway decent combos in which it is tolerable in your deck, but I don't really think it shines on any board. It's either horrible (most of the time) or decent (in some rare cases with strong TFB cards). Not unlike the other bottom-of-the-barrel cards like Scout and Chancellor. (Thief and Navigator are slightly better imo, but still not great of course.) I guess Death Cart is its best combo, Rats gives you more than enough fuel for Death Cart. But you'll still have trouble hitting $8 because the Rats ate the rest of your deck. And it's rather dependent on shuffle luck.

Every card can be useful to some extent. I once won a Minion game because I bought a Chancellor - there were no other good terminals and the quicker cycling made the difference in the end. There will be cases in which Rats will be equally useful. But I still think it's one of the worst cards in the game.

[iguanaiguana]

23. Borrow - It's a marginal benefit that causes you to have a marginal detriment next turn. Seems pretty mediocre at best.

It won't do much for you most of the time, but every once in a while a marginal increase in coins can be worth a lot.

I agree, but not nearly enough to justify placing it in the top 30 overall. I wouldn't say Borrow is anywhere near as strong as stuff like Jack, Magpie, Hunting Party or Minion, all cards ranked below Borrow in schadd's list.

207. Rats - Be honest, has it ever been more than a trap for you? Most of its benefits only work in theory. Probably one of the worst cards in the game, about on par with Scout and the likes.

Yes. Like, every time I bought it. Which isn't often or anything, it's just.. Death Cart/Rats is awesome? Butcher/Rats too, to lesser extent. Other TfB-cards I haven't tried out, but I'm pretty sure some of them will be board-defining combo's on certain boards. Rats isn't the best ever, but it is waaaay better than Scout, Navigator and Thief.

Rats does have some halfway decent combos in which it is tolerable in your deck, but I don't really think it shines on any board. It's either horrible (most of the time) or decent (in some rare cases with strong TFB cards). Not unlike the other bottom-of-the-barrel cards like Scout and Chancellor. (Thief and Navigator are slightly better imo, but still not great of course.) I guess Death Cart is its best combo, Rats gives you more than enough fuel for Death Cart. But you'll still have trouble hitting $8 because the Rats ate the rest of your deck. And it's rather dependent on shuffle luck.

Every card can be useful to some extent. I once won a Minion game because I bought a Chancellor - there were no other good terminals and the quicker cycling made the difference in the end. There will be cases in which Rats will be equally useful. But I still think it's one of the worst cards in the game.

You are just wrong about rats not being awesome sometimes. Look at for instance this game where Stef pulls off a ridiculous Turn 12 three pile by  using King's courted expands to expand rats into more king's courts and expands. Yes, it was a power board with King's court, scrying pool and black market on the table, but rats was a key card for the win.

There are about 8 million more examples out there. Rats is just a high skill card.

[jsh357]

Sure, here are my personal Top 10s in each category. I personally don't think the full ranking is all that interesting since the differences are so nit-picky. (Also I was too lazy to go through with finishing the whole ranking)

Code: [Select]

1.) Chapel   [X]
2.) Peasant   [X]
3.) Page   [X]
4.) Stonemason   [X]
5.) Courtyard   [X]
6.) Hamlet   [X]
7.) Crossroads   [X]
8.) Ratcatcher   [X]
9.) Fool's Gold   [X]
10.) Raze   [X]

1.) Ambassador   [X]
2.) Masquerade   [X]
3.) Steward   [X]
4.) Ferry   [X]
5.) Urchin   [X]
6.) Hermit   [X]
7.) Menagerie   [X]
8.) Black Market   [X]
9.) Forager   [X]
10.) Fishing Village   [X]

1.) Remake   [X]
2.) Jack of all Trades   [X]
3.) Wandering Minstrel   [X]
4.) Herald   [X]
5.) Tournament   [X]
6.) Magpie   [X]
7.) Envoy   [X]
8.) Mission   [X]
9.) Ironmonger   [X]
10.) Quarry   [X]

1.) Mountebank   [X]
2.) Rebuild   [X]
3.) Cultist   [X]
4.) Junk Dealer   [X]
5.) Wharf   [X]
6.) Governor   [X]
7.) Witch   [X]
8.) Hunting Party   [X]
9.) Margrave   [X]
10.) Minion   [X]

1.) King's Court   [X]
2.) Goons   [X]
3.) Pathfinding   [X]
4.) Lost Arts   [X]
5.) Grand Market   [X]
6.) Training   [X]
7.) Altar   [X]
8.) Border Village   [X]
9.) Hireling   [X]
10.) Peddler   [X]

1.) Scrying Pool   [X]
2.) Vineyard   [X]
3.) Familiar   [X]
4.) Apothecary   [X]
5.) Golem   [X]
6.) Alchemist   [X]
7.) Possession   [X]
8.) University   [X]
9.) Philosopher's Stone   [X]
10.) Transmute   [X]


[Witherweaver]

Missing card art, 2/10 would not read again.

[werothegreat]

Really, jsh, Ratcatcher over Fool's Gold?  Also, I'm surprised you don't have Gear anywhere on the $3 list.

[jsh357]

Really, jsh, Ratcatcher over Fool's Gold?

Ratcatcher is a card I will buy in almost any deck. Fool's Gold is a card I only buy in the absence of better options. That's basically my justification for it. They are both in the top 10, and everything in the top 10 is reasonably close, so there's no need to look in to it TOO deeply, I think.

[werothegreat]

Still surprised at no Gear, though.

[iguanaiguana]

Still surprised at no Gear, though.

Just imagine on the three cost list an implied 11) with an implied gear following it.

[jsh357]

I have Gear at #20, which is perhaps underrated, but it's also right next to Oracle (21) which I consider a very similar card in a lot of cases. By placing it this low I am in no way saying it's a bad card--just that I find the game rarely centers around it or is significantly affected by its presence. This is in contrast to stuff in the top of the list such as Ambassador and Black Market, which radically change how a game is played.

[assemble_me]

Our top 10 for 3$ is quite similar, JSH. I have the same cards in my top 10 besides Black Market, which I have on #11. I've got Swindler in there instead.
And well, Masq > Amb for sure

[jsh357]

Yeah, I am pretty sure I have Swindler at 11. It's really close. With Swindler it's hard to say since at times it does less than you expect, but it at the very least has a heavy psychological effect on the game. Ambassador vs Masq is a tricky one too. I do think Masquerade is 'more generally useful' but when Ambassador is the most important card on the board (frequently) it dominates the board.

[drsteelhammer]

The only card that surprises me on jsh's list is envoy, which I think should be a bit lower.

[jsh357]

The only card that surprises me on jsh's list is envoy, which I think should be a bit lower.

I also used to think it wasn't that great, but in an engine with villages and especially trashing it is almost an unstoppable draw card. The drawback seems so bad at first that you don't realize just how good drawing four cards is sometimes. (Remember this is what Hunting Grounds, a $6 card, does)

[drsteelhammer]

Funny, I just defended council room in the other thread because +4cards is so great. It the card has one or two many "if"'s in my opinion to be considered a top card. It's definitely awesome in the scenario you described.

[jsh357]

Well, for the record I'm with you on Council Room. Sure, I have it at 52, but that's because it's up against such powerhouses as Royal Seal in the $5 price range.

[assemble_me]

Well, for the record I'm with you on Council Room. Sure, I have it at 52, but that's because it's up against such powerhouses as Royal Seal in the $5 price range.

I have it on 50...
The biggest surprise for me is Mission in the 4$ top 10. I still haven't played with Adventures but Mission seems very situational for me, I have it somewhere in no man's land.

[jsh357]

Well, for the record I'm with you on Council Room. Sure, I have it at 52, but that's because it's up against such powerhouses as Royal Seal in the $5 price range.

I have it on 50...
The biggest surprise for me is Mission in the 4$ top 10. I still haven't played with Adventures but Mission seems very situational for me, I have it somewhere in no man's land.

I will say that perhaps my view is skewed by how good Mission is in Adventures-heavy games. It makes getting through Traveler chains, buying token Events, stocking up on Magpies, etc. way easier. However, even in regular games, there are lots of things you can do on an extra turn that are not buying, such as trashing and gaining. To me Mission is at minimum Top 15.

[drsteelhammer]

I love Mission, too. Not quite sure if it's in my top 10 but it's pretty good for a 4cost in a lot of games

edit: CR at about 50 is surely decent, they can't all be the best card in the game

[Beyond Awesome]

So, I am going to say this, I ranked Urchin #1 for $3 costs.

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, for the record I'm with you on Council Room. Sure, I have it at 52, but that's because it's up against such powerhouses as Royal Seal in the $5 price range.

I have it on 50...
The biggest surprise for me is Mission in the 4$ top 10. I still haven't played with Adventures but Mission seems very situational for me, I have it somewhere in no man's land.

I will say that perhaps my view is skewed by how good Mission is in Adventures-heavy games. It makes getting through Traveler chains, buying token Events, stocking up on Magpies, etc. way easier. However, even in regular games, there are lots of things you can do on an extra turn that are not buying, such as trashing and gaining. To me Mission is at minimum Top 15.

Mission is awesome! Probably not top 10 awesome though.

[Beyond Awesome]

The only card that surprises me on jsh's list is envoy, which I think should be a bit lower.

I can't remember what I ranked Envoy, but I think I may have ranked it as high as #5. It is really, really good. Drawing 4 cards is great for an engine, especially for the cost of $4.