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meshuggah42

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A dark expansion
« on: January 11, 2012, 02:36:19 pm »
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Hi all!

I was thinking about creating some cards around a theme, and to my surprise these seven cards took about 15 minutes to come up with. Of course I'm not saying they are the best in their current form, but I'd love to have some feedback about them. The main theme is death and occultism.

Funeral
Action - Attack
Cost: 5$

+2$
Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of their deck and trashes a card that you choose.

Exorcist
Action
Cost: 4$

+1 action
Look through your discard pile and trash up to 2 cards costing 2$ or less.

Coffin Maker
Action
Cost: 3$

+2$
+1 action
You may trash a card form your hand.

Cantor
Action - Attack
Cost: 5$

+1 VP
+1$
Each other player gains a Curse.

Graveyard
Victory - Reaction
Cost: 3$

Worth 2 VP.

When you buy this, trash a card from your hand.
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash that card.

Crypt
Action - Victory
Cost: 4$

Worth 1 VP.

+1 card
+1 action
Look through the trash pile and choose a card costing up to 8$ that is not a Province. Gain a copy of that card. If the trash pile is empty: +1 card.

Lost Diary
Action
Cost: 5$

+1 action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck, put all revealed action cards into your hand, discard the rest.

Morgue
Action - Attack
Cost: 6$

+2 cards
Each other player reveals his hand and discards the highest priced non-Victory card from it.

Occultist
Action
Cost: 5$

+1 card
+1 action
You may trash up to 2 cards from your hand. If you trashed any cards this way: +2$

Corpse Pile
Action - Attack
Cost: 6$

+2 cards
Each other player must discard a Treasure card from his hand that is not a Copper.
If he doesn't, he gains an Estate and a Curse.

Temple
Action - Reaction
Cost: 4$

+1 action
Look through your discard pile, choose a card from it costing 3$ or more, put it into your hand. If you don't find such a card: +1 card.

When an other player plays an attack card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, you are unaffected by the attack.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 06:11:50 pm by meshuggah42 »
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LastFootnote

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Re: A dark expansion
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2012, 03:16:52 pm »
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Funeral
Action - Attack
Cost: 5$

+2$
Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of their deck and trashes a card that you choose.

This card is almost strictly better than Saboteur and way too swingy. Effects that trash other players' cards are very tricky to balance. Examine the existing ones (Thief, Swindler, Saboteur, Pirate Ship, Noble Brigand) carefully before fixing this one.

Quote
Exorcist
Action
Cost: 4$

+1 action
Look through your discard pile and trash up to 2 cards costing 2$ or less.

This one seems OK at first glance. It's powerful, but can fail if your discard pile is empty. Do you really need to limit it to cards costing $2 or less?

Quote
Coffin Maker
Action
Cost: 3$

+2$
+1 action
You may trash a card form your hand.

Unless you draw it dead, this is strictly better than Silver. It needs to be nerfed somehow.

Quote
Cantor
Action - Attack
Cost: 5$

+1 VP
+1$
Each other player gains a Curse.

I guess this is OK, but I don't find it very interesting. Sorry!

I'll try to give feedback on the rest later.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: A dark expansion
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2012, 03:18:05 pm »
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Funeral
Action - Attack
Cost: 5$

+2$
Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of their deck and trashes a card that you choose.
Horribly overpowered and extremely swingy. Compare and contrast with Saboteur and Swindler, where the power of the trashing attack is lowered by the fact of a replacement card.

Quote
Exorcist
Action
Cost: 4$

+1 action
Look through your discard pile and trash up to 2 cards costing 2$ or less.
You probably don't need the end clause: nobody trashes cards costing more than $2 except with a trash-for-benefit card anyway. My impression is that it's weak for its price, but you'd need playtesting to confirm that.

Quote
Coffin Maker
Action
Cost: 3$

+2$
+1 action
You may trash a card form your hand.
Too strong for its price. Compare and contrast with Silver; in a lot of tableaux, it's just strictly superior to it.

Quote
Cantor
Action - Attack
Cost: 5$

+1 VP
+1$
Each other player gains a Curse.
Seems decent and reasonably-priced.

Quote
Graveyard
Victory - Reaction
Cost: 3$

Worth 2 VP.

When you buy this, trash a card from your hand.
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash that card.
A double counter to junking attacks, this one: it trashes the junk as it comes in, and you can trash more junk when you buy another one. Difficult to say how it will play without playtesting.

Quote
Crypt
Action - Victory
Cost: 4$

Worth 1 VP.

+1 card
+1 action
Look through the trash pile and choose a card costing up to 8$ that is not a Province. Gain a copy of that card. If the trash pile is empty: +1 card.
With no trashers in the game, this is horribly strong (strictly better than Laboratory, which is already one of the strongest $5s). With ordinary trashers in the game, it's horribly weak - who wants to gain trash?
With trash-for-benefit cards in the game... I really do not know.

Quote
Lost Diary
Action
Cost: 5$

+1 action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck, put all revealed action cards into your hand, discard the rest.
My gut feeling is that this would be fun but overpowered. Needs playtesting.
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jonts26

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Re: A dark expansion
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2012, 03:21:33 pm »
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Funeral
Action - Attack
Cost: 5$

+2$
Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of their deck and trashes a card that you choose.

This card is almost strictly better than Saboteur and way too swingy. Effects that trash other players' cards are very tricky to balance. Examine the existing ones (Thief, Swindler, Saboteur, Pirate Ship, Noble Brigand) carefully before fixing this one.

Saying a card is almost strictly better than sab isn't all that great. And it definitely doesn't do justice to how horribly broken this thing is.
EDIT: maybe I should include some actually constructive criticism. First off read point number 6 here. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=699.0

Second, the problem with this card is that it has all the strength of trashing random golds/provinces etc but actually REDUCES THE VARIANCE by letting you see two cards. And it gives you $2 to spend, compared to sab's nothing of benefit to you. Either you need to think of a way to compensate the attacked player (sab and swindler) limit the range of targeted cards (thief, pirate ship, etc) or do away with the trashing mechanism altogether in favor of something more mild.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 03:26:29 pm by jonts26 »
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dondon151

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Re: A dark expansion
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2012, 03:23:52 pm »
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Just a note: you don't need the "would gain" wording on Graveyard. Just use the similar, less confusing wording on Watchtower for trashing gained cards.
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rinkworks

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Re: A dark expansion
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2012, 03:31:15 pm »
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Funeral
Action - Attack
Cost: 5$
+2$
Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of their deck and trashes a card that you choose.

Random trashing means it's swingy.  Offering the choice of 2 cards means it's targeted randomness.  Zero in on the Provinces and win.  In a mirror match, worst shuffle luck loses.

Indiscriminate trashing is no fun, let alone targeted trashing.  At minimum, the victim needs to get some form of compensation proportional to the loss.  Observe how Saboteur and Swindler accomplish this.

Quote
Exorcist
Action
Cost: 4$
+1 action
Look through your discard pile and trash up to 2 cards costing 2$ or less.

This is possibly fine.  I suspect it's a lot more powerful than it looks, though, and might need either a price boost or the loss of its +Action.  Most trashers weaken the buy phase by trashing cards from the current hand.  Two are exceptions:  Loan, which is a decent card despite being limited to Treasures and fails once you start buying better Treasures; and Masquerade, which is such an elite $3 card that it would make an elite $4 card.

But we also have to consider that you might draw this at the top of a shuffle, in which case it's useless.  So maybe $4 is fine.

I'd drop the price restriction, though.  I don't think it adds any real gameplay.  Most cards you want to trash cost $2 or less anyway, and when you want to trash a card that costs more, that's an interesting strategic play that should be allowed.

Quote
Coffin Maker
Action
Cost: 3$
+2$
+1 action
You may trash a card form your hand.

This is largely equivalent to a Silver that lets you trash -- as such, it's terribly underpowered.  $5 is probably the right cost, as that's where Silver-with-a-bonus cards usually belong.  You have more wiggle room, though, given that this is a Silver-as-Action rather than a true Treasure.  Still, it's a pretty sweet card at $4, for the same reason as Exorcist is:  with the cash bonus, it offers trashing without crippling your buy phase very much.

Quote
Cantor
Action - Attack
Cost: 5$
+1 VP
+1$
Each other player gains a Curse.

It's an interesting idea.  Cursers are strong primarily because they clog up your opponents' decks, not because of the VP penalty.  But here's a cursing card that exaggerates the VP swing.  So that's obviously strong.  But what it does otherwise is only +$1, which is inferior to Witch's +2 Cards.  So maybe that balances out.

The key difference, however, is that Cantor is more useful after the curses run out than Witch is.  Given that Witch is already one of the strongest $5 cards in the game, it should probably raise a red flag if you are proposing a $5 card that's probably better.

Quote
Graveyard
Victory - Reaction
Cost: 3$
Worth 2 VP.
When you buy this, trash a card from your hand.
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash that card.

This should probably be "when you gain a card," rather than "would gain," although it might still be fine.  My problem here is that I don't understand its overall utility.  How do the different pieces synergize?  By the time you want to buy victory cards, you probably don't care much about trashing.  And if you buy these early to make use of the trashing, the trashing effect is negated by the fact that you're replacing whatever you trash with a mostly-deadweight green card.

It's entirely possible I'm not foreseeing a cohesive use of this card, but I do think it's important that these sorts of "do a little of everything" cards synergize together.  Like how all the diverse effects of Watchtower and Jack of All Trades combine to undo the effects of most attacks.   Or how Steward's list of choices allows it to remain useful in all three stages of a typical game (trash in the early game, draw in the mid-game, money in the late game).

Quote
Crypt
Action - Victory
Cost: 4$
Worth 1 VP.
+1 card
+1 action
Look through the trash pile and choose a card costing up to 8$ that is not a Province. Gain a copy of that card. If the trash pile is empty: +1 card.

Edit: I misread this card at first.  See Jack Rudd's response for a great verbalization of my own thoughts on this.

Quote
Lost Diary
Action
Cost: 5$
+1 action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck, put all revealed action cards into your hand, discard the rest.

You could make a persuasive argument that this card's average case is better than Scrying Pool's average case.  Scrying Pool obviously has a stronger upside -- no limit on the number of action cards you can draw into your hand, plus one non-action card -- but you only need to draw 2 total to make Lost Diary as good as a Laboratory (better, actually), and the potential to draw more is really nice.

Anyway, Scrying Pool is good enough that its purchase needs to be limited by its Potion cost.  So I worry that this would be too strong.  But there are enough differences that maybe this is okay.  If you ever playtest these, let us know how this one works out.

Edit:  I didn't notice that the other cards are discarded.   That definitely makes it too strong.  The ability to cycle past junk (and if you're playing with this as a strategy, you're probably not buying high-value treasures, in which case it IS junk) is very very strong, which is why Cartographer is a $5 card despite doing nothing for your current hand.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 04:01:57 pm by rinkworks »
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Robz888

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Re: A dark expansion
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2012, 03:40:58 pm »
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Funeral
Action - Attack
Cost: 5$

+2$
Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of their deck and trashes a card that you choose.

This is way too strong. It's so much more powerful than Saboteur it's not even funny. You could change it so that instead of the Attacker picking the card to trash, the victim does, but even then I think this would be too strong, considering its +$2.

Quote
Exorcist
Action
Cost: 4$

+1 action
Look through your discard pile and trash up to 2 cards costing 2$ or less.

This seems pretty good, though you probably don't need the $2 or less clause. It might be a little underpowered, even then.

Quote
Coffin Maker
Action
Cost: 3$

+2$
+1 action
You may trash a card form your hand.

As noted, this is strictly superior to Silver most of the time. You could give +$1 instead, but that might make it too weak.

Quote
Cantor
Action - Attack
Cost: 5$

+1 VP
+1$
Each other player gains a Curse.

I like this card. I suspect it is balanced, though quite strong. A VP-giving Witch that turns into a worse Monument. Pretty cool.

Quote
Graveyard
Victory - Reaction
Cost: 3$

Worth 2 VP.

When you buy this, trash a card from your hand.
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash that card.

You have a lot of cards in this set that trash for no benefit. I would consider revising some of them, just for the sake of cutting down on similarity. Think about how Salvager, Remodel, Remake, Apprentice, etc., each do something different with trashing.

Quote
Crypt
Action - Victory
Cost: 4$

Worth 1 VP.

+1 card
+1 action
Look through the trash pile and choose a card costing up to 8$ that is not a Province. Gain a copy of that card. If the trash pile is empty: +1 card.

This is sort of a weird one. In a Kingdom with no trashing, this would be ridiculously strong--strictly superior to Laboratory, and cheaper! With trashing, I'm not sure it's very good. Rarely do you want anything from the trash, and people will be reluctant to put anything worthwhile in the trash. So this would become sort of just a Great Hall.

Quote
Lost Diary
Action
Cost: 5$

+1 action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck, put all revealed action cards into your hand, discard the rest.

I like this one. You would have to play test to be sure, but it's probably very strong. If 2 of your next 4 cards are Actions, you are essentially getting a Laboratory that also discards your non-Action cards (which is usually a good thing).

Cool ideas!
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meshuggah42

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Re: A dark expansion
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2012, 06:05:16 pm »
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Fisrt of all, I'd like to thank everyone their input, it is really nice to see that this community is open for constructive dialogue.

I don't have time to go over your opinions now, I will do it probably tomorrow. Until then, I updated the OP with 4 new ideas for you to discuss.

Cheers!
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Jack Rudd

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Re: A dark expansion
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2012, 06:23:24 pm »
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Morgue
Action - Attack
Cost: 6$

+2 cards
Each other player reveals his hand and discards the highest priced non-Victory card from it.
Needs clarification on what to do in the case of a tie. And probably also needs nerfing; getting hit by more than one of these in a turn could essentially wipe you out.

Quote
Occultist
Action
Cost: 5$

+1 card
+1 action
You may trash up to 2 cards from your hand. If you trashed any cards this way: +2$
Hmm, cantrip optional trasher. Looks strong, but maybe correctly priced at $5.

Quote
Corpse Pile
Action - Attack
Cost: 6$

+2 cards
Each other player must discard a Treasure card from his hand that is not a Copper.
If he doesn't, he gains an Estate and a Curse.

Needs rewording: either he gets to choose which, or he needs to reveal the hand with no suitable treasures. Another very nasty attack if you're hit by it multiple times in a turn.

Quote
Temple
Action - Reaction
Cost: 4$

+1 action
Look through your discard pile, choose a card from it costing 3$ or more, put it into your hand. If you don't find such a card: +1 card.

When an other player plays an attack card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, you are unaffected by the attack.
Yow. A Cantrip moat? Have you read rinkworks's thoughts on the subject of non-terminal reactions?
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Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

DrHades

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Re: A dark expansion
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2012, 10:29:49 pm »
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I HIGHLY recommend for you to read "Secrety history of..." by Donald X., you have some cards here, that he was testing for a long time, but they are so terribly broken that it cannot be fixed.

Funeral - This is the nicest example of it - cards that randomly trash are horribly broken (but it takes lots of words to say why exactly).

Exorcist - Very good idea, but I'm afraid it is too strong comparing to Chapel, Steward, Remake and Lookout...then again - you are risking to have it in hand after a reshuffle, so it might work just fine (but it also might be very luck dependent, I'm not sure)

Coffin Maker - Silver with extra trashing??? Loan that gives me 2??? This is waaaaay to strong I think...maybe without the +action it would be just fine.

Cantor - Not much different from other cursers, so not really interesting, but ok I guess.

Graveyard - Now that's more like it! This is an interesting card! I like it a lot...

Crypt - With trash-for-benefit, probably waaaay too strong. Without them it is nice Great Hall+ (it can get you Estates). Without trashers at all - again waaaaay too strong. I think it might be a nice $5 card...

Lost Diary - Very similar to Scrying pool...not very interesting I think...

Morgue - Again, read Donald's posts. This is broken with 3+ players because it is devastating when used multiple times. Maybe if "Each other player with 5 or more cards in his hand"...and also - who makes the choice when there are 2 cards of the same price?

Occultist - Grand Market without buy that trashes cards for me at the start? This cannot cost just $5...you may argue that GM is much stronger because I don't want to trash every time, but I have 10 cards I really want to trash on every board and it totally criples cursing attacks...this would be probably too strong even if you had to trash a card (but it would at least be an interesting trap...this sounds actually pretty interesting)

Corpse Pile - Totally broken when played twice.

Temple - I don't know why it has that reaction. It would be a nice $4 cantrip without it. Synergies really nice with cards like Scheme, Warehouse, Swindler...
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rspeer

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Re: A dark expansion
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 12:48:46 am »
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(re: Exorcist)

You probably don't need the end clause: nobody trashes cards costing more than $2 except with a trash-for-benefit card anyway. My impression is that it's weak for its price, but you'd need playtesting to confirm that.

My impression is actually the opposite. A trasher with basically no opportunity cost? +1 action and it doesn't shrink the size of my hand any further? Hell yeah. If it could trash $3 cards, there are many decks where I'd use it to trash all my silvers too.

My objection to it, though, is that it would succeed often enough to make all the cursers, Ambassador, Jester, etc. into worthless cards.
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AJD

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Re: A dark expansion
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2012, 10:40:25 am »
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Morgue
Action - Attack
Cost: 6$

+2 cards
Each other player reveals his hand and discards the highest priced non-Victory card from it.
Needs clarification on what to do in the case of a tie.

Or in the case of, like, "I have Possession and Forge in hand; which one costs more?"
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Octo

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Re: A dark expansion
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2012, 11:14:49 am »
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If you're going to have them reveal their hand then you might as well have the attacker choose which card you discard, and not let it be any card (i.e. include VPs). You might want them to get rid of a province for example, to avoid them salvaging it or something.

I agree on the point about it needing a "if they have more than four cards" clause - losing your best card is punishing enough usually.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 11:19:14 am by Octo »
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