Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[jsh357]

http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?7889-Exiting-Open-Beta-Sunset-of-Goko-Site

Read the news here

[Jimmmmm]

Who would have thought we'd be lamenting the death of Goko?

[jsh357]

Personally I am ready to move on, especially with SCSN's mod existing, but yeah, it's weird.

[Roadrunner7671]

Oh, crap!
Is there a mobile version?

[drsteelhammer]

How is a coloured gamelog an improvement?

[Awaclus]

How is a coloured gamelog an improvement?

It's an improvement over the Goko log, not the Salvager log.

[werothegreat]

I just posted a response to those 30 points in the MF forum thread.  Feel free to add your own thoughts, but please be civil.    Yelling at them, however valid your points may be, will only make us all seem like a bunch of fringe lunatics.

[Roadrunner7671]

I just posted a response to those 30 points in the MF forum thread.  Feel free to add your own thoughts, but please be civil.    Yelling at them, however valid your points may be, will only make us all seem like a bunch of fringe lunatics.

Can you please share the link?

[werothegreat]

I just posted a response to those 30 points in the MF forum thread.  Feel free to add your own thoughts, but please be civil.    Yelling at them, however valid your points may be, will only make us all seem like a bunch of fringe lunatics.

Can you please share the link?

http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?7889-Exiting-Open-Beta-Sunset-of-Goko-Site

[werothegreat]

version 2 does improve in some ways over version 1:

the avatar turning pink when it's a possession turn

This is one of those things (Dominion and the internet being other examples) of which you didn't know you couldn't live a day without them until they entered your life.

I haven't played with Possession on 2.0 yet...  I had to set up a kingdom specifically today to see how terrible the Bane animation was.

[SCSN]

version 2 does improve in some ways over version 1:

the avatar turning pink when it's a possession turn

This is one of those things (Dominion and the internet being other examples) of which you didn't know you couldn't live a day without until it entered your life.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Ever since I got the most recent version, something like 1 out of 4 games for me have ended with an error message about not being able to connect to the server. Of course this requires the entire program to shut down as well.

[Burning Skull]

[assemble_me]

[Beyond Awesome]

The thing still crashes my computer after three games. sigh! See guys, I knew they posted somewhere they were closing the site down.

[-Stef-]

I tried the new client yesterday, before I noticed this news just to try out SCSNs patch.
I think the patch really helped, delays were no longer my biggest annoyance. Thanks to SCSN for that.

Unfortunately automatch still totally sucked.

They still have the same silly interface, using a choose-thing on the left (human/AI/human+AI) and a toggle-thing on the right (2P/3P/4P) that look exactly the same.
They also still display AI as brains and humans as pawns. While waiting for a match I still get no feedback whatsoever.
I suggested doing something else on all of these five months ago and got really nice thank you notes for all suggestions.

MF claimed my rank was 5048 or something, good enough with me.
Now I have the option of choosing (Any rating, close if available, only within 1000 points of my rating).
I honestly have no idea what the difference between the first two is, so I went with the latter.

On a scrying pool engine my opponent opened Potion/Silver and I went for Potion/Pawn. Apparently my opponent was very impressed with my Pawn buy, because on turn 3 with $4P in play he also bought a Pawn.

During some of my games I had this weird display thing where all the cards went small. Even on games where it didn't, the animations when my opponent bought a card often made it look strange. He bought an Armory, yet the animation started at the Ironmonger pile, very confusing every time.

Clearly MF is ready for launch now.

[Burning Skull]

Apparently my opponent was very impressed with my Pawn buy, because on turn 3 with $4P in play he also bought a Pawn.

I've played quite a few games on v2.0 recently, and that thing always happens. It seems they don't really take your ranking into account while automatching.
Or maybe the leaderboard is not "settled" enough yet.

[werothegreat]

On a scrying pool engine my opponent opened Potion/Silver and I went for Potion/Pawn. Apparently my opponent was very impressed with my Pawn buy, because on turn 3 with $4P in play he also bought a Pawn.

Surely at least this one isn't MF's fault.  Unless you're criticizing their automatch functionality?

[Kirian]

On a scrying pool engine my opponent opened Potion/Silver and I went for Potion/Pawn. Apparently my opponent was very impressed with my Pawn buy, because on turn 3 with $4P in play he also bought a Pawn.

Surely at least this one isn't MF's fault.  Unless you're criticizing their automatch functionality?

I believe he's doing exactly that.  No one should be matched with Stef who would buy Pawn with $4P on a Pool board.

[popsofctown]

Does anyone else remember how exciting it was when Goko was ready for their first launch?

[Beyond Awesome]

Does anyone else remember how exciting it was when Goko was ready for their first launch?

I remember, but we also got a fairly advance warning when the site would shut down. I also remember Goko being in worst shape, but luckily Salavager came out, like what, two-weeks later?

[Awaclus]

Stef who would buy Pawn with $4P on a Pool board.

I don't think I know that Stef.

[Beyond Awesome]

Stef who would buy Pawn with $4P on a Pool board.

I don't think I know that Stef.

Pawn is definitely the better buy over Silver. It's an action and you can just +1 Card +$1. It's superior to silver every way on a  SP board.

[Elanchana]

Personally, I'm appalled that they're not re-importing our ratings from Goko. With an app that had a HUGE history of crashing, they should know better.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Personally, I'm appalled that they're not re-importing our ratings from Goko. With an app that had a HUGE history of crashing, they should know better.

Your rating doesn't build up from playing lots of games, it just adjusts as you play better. It only take a couple handfuls of games to get it close to where it was before.

[Awaclus]

Personally, I'm appalled that they're not re-importing our ratings from Goko. With an app that had a HUGE history of crashing, they should know better.

Your rating doesn't build up from playing lots of games, it just adjusts as you play better. It only take a couple handfuls of games to get it close to where it was before.

I've played probably like 30 games and lost only a couple of them after MAKiNG MORE FUN was released, and I'm still in the mid-4000s.

[sc0UT]

Personally, I'm appalled that they're not re-importing our ratings from Goko. With an app that had a HUGE history of crashing, they should know better.

Your rating doesn't build up from playing lots of games, it just adjusts as you play better. It only take a couple handfuls of games to get it close to where it was before.

I've played probably like 30 games and lost only a couple of them after MAKiNG MORE FUN was released, and I'm still in the mid-4000s.

Yeah, you should challenge more bots!

[Beyond Awesome]

Same here. My rating is a lot lower because of my computer crashing a lot on the new client

[popsofctown]

Mic Qsenoch's point is still relevant.  If the crashing issue is fixed, your rating will quickly move to where it should be.  If the crashing issue remains, then importing your Goko rating won't help, it will be eroded after a handful of games.

Compared to other issues going on I don't think the handful of games it takes to restabilize after switching from Goko to MF is very relevant.

[-Stef-]

Also: even after they fix their automatch bugs (I'm convinced it currently is just bugged) we're stuck again with using the crappy goko-rating system for matching instead of the nice iso-levels.

That means that a frequent player will be the equivalent of 10-15 levels higher then someone of equal strength playing infrequent.

[werothegreat]

Also: even after they fix their automatch bugs (I'm convinced it currently is just bugged) we're stuck again with using the crappy goko-rating system for matching instead of the nice iso-levels.

That means that a frequent player will be the equivalent of 10-15 levels higher then someone of equal strength playing infrequent.

Sounds like someone should advise MF on how to make a rating system.

Another option would be to have ratings Hearthstone style - various ranks, etc. - but only have that count for games against humans, not bots.

[Beyond Awesome]

We should tell them bots should not count for ranked games. Right now they do.

[LastFootnote]

Remind me why bots shouldn't count for ranked games?

[popsofctown]

Remind me why bots shouldn't count for ranked games?

Surely, at least in combination with the activity level issue, you see a problem there. 

[Chris is me]

Apparently my opponent was very impressed with my Pawn buy, because on turn 3 with $4P in play he also bought a Pawn.

I've played quite a few games on v2.0 recently, and that thing always happens. It seems they don't really take your ranking into account while automatching.
Or maybe the leaderboard is not "settled" enough yet.

I think it does, but in a counterintuitive, shitty way.

The text of the option in question is "Compatible rating. Never more than 1000 below my rating". I think we all assumed that meant Opponent's Rating > (Your rating - 1000), but it might actually just mean Opponent's Rating < (Your rating - 1000). As in, their rating is never more than your rating - 1000, not never more than 1000 below your rating.

I just have consistently better games when I hit "any rating", and I can't figure out why. Maybe it's confirmation bias, I don't know.

[Kirian]

Stef who would buy Pawn with $4P on a Pool board.

I don't think I know that Stef.

Dammit, English language, you had one job!

[iguanaiguana]

Well, it looks like there is no web build yet, so I believe MF just announced my hiatus from dominion. Sad day.

[Kirian]

Well, it looks like there is no web build yet, so I believe MF just announced my hiatus from dominion. Sad day.

Telling paying customers they can no longer play seems like a really huge problem to me.

[popsofctown]

Apparently my opponent was very impressed with my Pawn buy, because on turn 3 with $4P in play he also bought a Pawn.

I've played quite a few games on v2.0 recently, and that thing always happens. It seems they don't really take your ranking into account while automatching.
Or maybe the leaderboard is not "settled" enough yet.

I think it does, but in a counterintuitive, shitty way.

If that's the case, it's not counterintuitive.  The written description saying "never more than 1000 below my rating" is not an intuition.  That would be a bug.

[rspeer]

Sounds like someone should advise MF on how to make a rating system.

Another option would be to have ratings Hearthstone style - various ranks, etc. - but only have that count for games against humans, not bots.

Wait, what? Are you suggesting that Hearthstone ranks are a good rating system?

[Elanchana]

Also: even after they fix their automatch bugs (I'm convinced it currently is just bugged) we're stuck again with using the crappy goko-rating system for matching instead of the nice iso-levels.

That means that a frequent player will be the equivalent of 10-15 levels higher then someone of equal strength playing infrequent.

At least Iso will import our previous levels, right? If I have to do that entire level 30 grind again...

[popsofctown]

Sounds like someone should advise MF on how to make a rating system.

Another option would be to have ratings Hearthstone style - various ranks, etc. - but only have that count for games against humans, not bots.

Wait, what? Are you suggesting that Hearthstone ranks are a good rating system?

He didn't say it was a good option, he said it was an option, so I'm trying to give him a lot of the benefit of the doubt on it.

[SCSN]

It seems they don't really take your ranking into account while automatching.

I think it does, but in a counterintuitive, shitty way.

If that's the case, it's not counterintuitive.  The written description saying "never more than 1000 below my rating" is not an intuition.  That would be a bug.

He's saying that they might have interpreted the sentence as "Never more than (1000 below my rating)", i.e. anything in the range (-infinity, myRating-1000].

It sounds extremely far-fetched but I do think that on a linguistic level the sentence is just ambiguous enough for a small % of non-native speakers with no mathematical intuition to get it wrong, and those are exactly the sort of people you outsource your programming work to if all you care about is cutting corners costs.

I checked the code to see whether I could find anything like this, but they seem to just send your choice to the server, so that doesn't tell us anything.

[Mic Qsenoch]

At least Iso will import our previous levels, right? If I have to do that entire level 30 grind again...

That isn't how the ratings work! It sort of looks like that when the system has zero information, but only for a short period of playing. That's because the iso levels (and the Goko ratings) are their estimation of your skill minus some uncertainty (i.e. it is a conservative estimation of the player's skill). So when you start out it looks like their estimation of your skill is really low, but actually it's just really uncertain. After you lower that uncertainty by playing some games, your changes in level aren't from grinding out games but from actually getting better (mostly).

So if you're iso level 30, the "grind" will just be playing enough games that your uncertainty drops to a reasonable level. I'd guess that with a fresh account a person would be within 5 levels of their "actual" rating (higher or lower, with lower being more likely due to the uncertainty being subtracted) within 50 games or so. I'm confident that within 100 games your rating would just be whatever it's "supposed" to be (within a level or two).

I am making these numbers up, and probably skewing them low to support my position. But I have on a couple occasions created alts and gotten them to near the top of the leaderboard and it doesn't take that many games. People used to do this on isotropic as well and just by glancing through the current leaderboard you can see lots of players with high ratings and a low number of games. It doesn't take 1000 games to get a good sense of a player's skill.

[assemble_me]

At least Iso will import our previous levels, right? If I have to do that entire level 30 grind again...

So if you're iso level 30, the "grind" will just be playing enough games that your uncertainty drops to a reasonable level. I'd guess that with a fresh account a person would be within 5 levels of their "actual" rating (higher or lower, with lower being more likely due to the uncertainty being subtracted) within 50 games or so. I'm confident that within 100 games your rating would just be whatever it's "supposed" to be (within a level or two).

Looking at the current leader board, people with an uncertainty around 10 (which is as low as it gets ) have played at least 250 games.
andrewbartley with 54 games has an uncertainty of 18.6
JW with 95 games has an uncertainty of 14.4
Some guy with a very long (probably french name) name has 172 games and has an uncertainty of 12.7

So you need quite some more games to get back to your level, after 150 you're at least getting close.

[popsofctown]

It seems they don't really take your ranking into account while automatching.

I think it does, but in a counterintuitive, shitty way.

If that's the case, it's not counterintuitive.  The written description saying "never more than 1000 below my rating" is not an intuition.  That would be a bug.

He's saying that they might have interpreted the sentence as "Never more than (1000 below my rating)", i.e. anything in the range (-infinity, myRating-1000].

It sounds extremely far-fetched but I do think that on a linguistic level the sentence is just ambiguous enough for a small % of non-native speakers with no mathematical intuition to get it wrong, and those are exactly the sort of people you outsource your programming work to if all you care about is cutting corners costs.

I checked the code to see whether I could find anything like this, but they seem to just send your choice to the server, so that doesn't tell us anything.

OH I get it now

[SCSN]

My rating is down to 2600 or so. Looks like I've made MF playable at the cost of having no one left worth playing.

[Mic Qsenoch]

At least Iso will import our previous levels, right? If I have to do that entire level 30 grind again...

So if you're iso level 30, the "grind" will just be playing enough games that your uncertainty drops to a reasonable level. I'd guess that with a fresh account a person would be within 5 levels of their "actual" rating (higher or lower, with lower being more likely due to the uncertainty being subtracted) within 50 games or so. I'm confident that within 100 games your rating would just be whatever it's "supposed" to be (within a level or two).

Looking at the current leader board, people with an uncertainty around 10 (which is as low as it gets ) have played at least 250 games.
andrewbartley with 54 games has an uncertainty of 18.6
JW with 95 games has an uncertainty of 14.4
Some guy with a very long (probably french name) name has 172 games and has an uncertainty of 12.7

So you need quite some more games to get back to your level, after 150 you're at least getting close.

You don't have to have an uncertainty of 10 to be "back to your level", though it would help. In any case, a higher uncertainty of 2-4 levels is no real barrier to reaching some arbitrary cutoff (say, level 30). Thanks for looking up the numbers.

[DG]

You don't have to play particularly frequently to get a reasonable Iso level. I had about 200 games logged and those were just the league games I've played over all the league seasons. I've been in the top 5 of the Iso leaderboard for most of that time.

[popsofctown]

I'm 54 - 8 and still getting paired with people presumably 999 points below my level that think they should open Chancellor Smithy on a Witch board.

I think the matchmaking is probably the biggest funkiller on the new client

[Awaclus]

I'm 54 - 8 and still getting paired with people presumably 999 points below my level that think they should open Chancellor Smithy on a Witch board.

I think the matchmaking is probably the biggest funkiller on the new client

Chancellor/Smithy is a relatively decent opening. I've had people open Pirate Ship/Pirate Ship against me on Baker+Cultist boards.

[GendoIkari]

Ah, time to reminise about all the fond memories of trying out Goko once or twice before deciding that it just wasn't even close to worth it and never playing it again.

[popsofctown]

I'm 54 - 8 and still getting paired with people presumably 999 points below my level that think they should open Chancellor Smithy on a Witch board.

I think the matchmaking is probably the biggest funkiller on the new client

Chancellor/Smithy is a relatively decent opening. I've had people open Pirate Ship/Pirate Ship against me on Baker+Cultist boards.

I mean, yeah, obviously that's going to be more harmful to the winrate than Chancellor/Smithy.  When it's a Pirate Ship, opening, though, I try to be optimistic that the player has played a few dozen IRL 4p base+intrigue+seaside games and come to believe Pirate Ship is a nice card and is misapplying the principles of what was making it work out ok.  I can't imagine any series of games with a good sample size that would lead you to believe that Chancellor+Smithy is sometimes the right answer.

[SCSN]

I just had a game where I had 5/2 on an Urchin board with Transmute and Philosopher's Stone as the Potion cards. When my opponent bought an Urchin with his $3 hand I was starting to get a bit worried, but then he bought a Potion for $4 and I knew all would be well.

[iguanaiguana]

I just had a game where I had 5/2 on an Urchin board with Transmute and Philosopher's Stone as the Potion cards. When my opponent bought an Urchin with his $3 hand I was starting to get a bit worried, but then he bought a Potion for $4 and I knew all would be well.

Hey man, that's two potion cards. TWO potion cards. When there are two, you practically have to go for potion. Too bad about your 5/2 making that tough for you to do and also pick up a nice urchin.

[popsofctown]

I just had a game where I had 5/2 on an Urchin board with Transmute and Philosopher's Stone as the Potion cards. When my opponent bought an Urchin with his $3 hand I was starting to get a bit worried, but then he bought a Potion for $4 and I knew all would be well.

Hey man, that's two potion cards. TWO potion cards. When there are two, you practically have to go for potion. Too bad about your 5/2 making that tough for you to do and also pick up a nice urchin.

The obvious opening on 5/2 is Potion/Estate, looking to trash the Estate with Transmute later and gain a shiny Gold.

[-Stef-]

I just had a game where I had 5/2 on an Urchin board with Transmute and Philosopher's Stone as the Potion cards. When my opponent bought an Urchin with his $3 hand I was starting to get a bit worried, but then he bought a Potion for $4 and I knew all would be well.

I've played a bunch of games today too. Very similar experiences all the time.
People buying coppers because the have buys to spare (goons not included), people building up their fairgrounds score even though it's not on the board.
Players not answering at all when you chat to them.
It was sort of fun for a day, but it won't stay fun very long.

Fortunately there are some tournaments running, but I guess I'm not going to play random games for a while.
Great work, MF, clearly you are ready for launch now.

[Kirian]

A proposal:  Pick a time when a reasonably large sample of good or even semi-good players (or even bad players whose handles are known because of the forums like that Kirian guy), and have them all in the matchmaking system at once.  If the system is working properly, those people should mostly get matched with one another.  If not... well, it shows the system is FUBAR.

[Kirian]

OK, I'd only been playing against AIs for testing purposes.

HOLY FUCK WHAT IS WITH THE CRYSTAL BALL?

[popsofctown]

I'm pretty sure the matchmaking system is FUBAR'ed.  There's a large number of people who bought their first box of Dominion a month ago and are trying out Dominion online for the first time at any point in time, so there's always going to be enough weak players online to mess things up if matchmaking isn't really pairing people by skill.

[SCSN]

They're going to start a closed beta for the Android version, letting in only people who have been helpful during the previous beta (which sounds very problematic, as it means the developers themselves would have to be excluded).

[werothegreat]

At least all the cards are implemented correctly, which is more than can be said for when Goko launched.  Though we shall see how well they manage to implement Adventures...

[popsofctown]

I don't understand how it can be hard to implement Adventures.  If dougz can implement Figures in the Sand with 99.9% accuracy because he's bored surely a paid company with exclusive rights to a massively popular board game can implement a card set that is mostly permutations of other cards.

[Jean-Michel]

Weird, I thought the Android version had already been released. I actually downloaded it earlier today, but now it has apparently vanished from the store.

[Roadrunner7671]

As of now, it's still up. The suspense is almost too much for me!

I'm gonna open double Curse
 

[Kirian]

surely a paid company with exclusive rights to a massively popular board game can implement a card set that is mostly permutations of other cards.

Obviously this isn't the case.  And don't call me Shirley.

[werothegreat]

Weird, I thought the Android version had already been released. I actually downloaded it earlier today, but now it has apparently vanished from the store.

Apparently that was a mistake, and they've taken it down now.

Also, their update alert system seems to be working perfectly, if a little snarky.

[LastFootnote]

I don't understand how it can be hard to implement Adventures.  If dougz can implement Figures in the Sand with 99.9% accuracy because he's bored surely a paid company with exclusive rights to a massively popular board game can implement a card set that is mostly permutations of other cards.

Well there's a lot of stuff to add/change. Depending on how many wrong assumptions they made when coding the other cards/mechanics, it could be pretty tough. The cards that are actually just permutations of other existing mechanics are: Page, Peasant, Raze, Amulet, Dungeon, Gear (assuming e.g. Tactician and Haven are coded correctly), Magpie, Messenger, Port, Artificer, Lost City, Storyteller (I assume that paying all your $ and drawing that many cards is trivial to code), Treasure Trove, Soldier, Fugitive, Disciple, Warrior, and Hero. That's 18 things out of the 58 that are in Adventures. That's not "mostly" permutations of other cards, not by a long shot. They have to implement:

• The concept of Events in general, including making space for them in the Supply area. (Alms, Quest, Save, Scouting Party, Travelling Fair, Bonfire, Expedition, Mission, Trade)
• The Tavern mat. (Miser, Distant Lands, Wine Merchant)
• Calling stuff from the Tavern mat at the start of a turn or when you gain a card. (Ratcatcher, Guide, Transmogrify, Duplicate)
• The much more difficult task of calling stuff after you play an Action without making you click ten million times per turn. (Coin of the Realm, Royal Carriage)
• Duration cards that stay out more than one turn (Champion, Hireling)
• Duration Attacks that may effect players on their turn (Swamp Hag, Haunted Woods)
• Playing cards on other players' turns (Caravan Guard)
• The -1 Card token (Relic, Borrow, Raid)
• The -$1 token (Bridge Troll, Ball)
• The vanilla bonus tokens (+1 Card, etc.) (Training, Lost Arts, Pathfinding, Seaway, Teacher)
• The -$2 cost token. (Ferry)
• The Trashing token. (Plan)
• The Journey token. (Giant, Ranger, Pilgrimage)
• The Estate token, which I'm guessing is going to be an absolute bear to implement correctly. (Inheritance)

That's a lot of stuff to code and test.

[Roadrunner7671]

http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20151015/log.547b6e2be4b01abc4d7dbd6d.1444937573586.txt
I watched a video on YouTube (I am sure many of you have) where Sasha (one of the players) recommended buying Villages, then Estates. I won the Village split 9-1 and the Estate split 8-0. Sadly, Sasha had never said what to do once those two piles were gone, so I prepared to pile drive the Curses. My clever opponent, however, had other ideas. With a suprise three-pile that I am sure will shock you, I do recommend Sasha's strategy. It served me well, and I could've won that game.


RIP Goko

[werothegreat]

I think for RC/CotR what there needs to be is just a little button: "Call a Reserve card."  It hovers in the spot currently taken by "End Actions".  The only reason you should ever be asked if you want to call RC (this does not apply to CotR in the least, we can make assumptions like there are for Moat) should be when you involve Throne Room et al.  Golem and Herald in particular will need this.

[popsofctown]

I don't understand how it can be hard to implement Adventures.  If dougz can implement Figures in the Sand with 99.9% accuracy because he's bored surely a paid company with exclusive rights to a massively popular board game can implement a card set that is mostly permutations of other cards.

Well there's a lot of stuff to add/change. Depending on how many wrong assumptions they made when coding the other cards/mechanics, it could be pretty tough. The cards that are actually just permutations of other existing mechanics are: Page, Peasant, Raze, Amulet, Dungeon, Gear (assuming e.g. Tactician and Haven are coded correctly), Magpie, Messenger, Port, Artificer, Lost City, Storyteller (I assume that paying all your $ and drawing that many cards is trivial to code), Treasure Trove, Soldier, Fugitive, Disciple, Warrior, and Hero. That's 18 things out of the 58 that are in Adventures. That's not "mostly" permutations of other cards, not by a long shot. They have to implement:

• The concept of Events in general, including making space for them in the Supply area. (Alms, Quest, Save, Scouting Party, Travelling Fair, Bonfire, Expedition, Mission, Trade)
• The Tavern mat. (Miser, Distant Lands, Wine Merchant)
• Calling stuff from the Tavern mat at the start of a turn or when you gain a card. (Ratcatcher, Guide, Transmogrify, Duplicate)
• The much more difficult task of calling stuff after you play an Action without making you click ten million times per turn. (Coin of the Realm, Royal Carriage)
• Duration cards that stay out more than one turn (Champion, Hireling)
• Duration Attacks that may effect players on their turn (Swamp Hag, Haunted Woods)
• Playing cards on other players' turns (Caravan Guard)
• The -1 Card token (Relic, Borrow, Raid)
• The -$1 token (Bridge Troll, Ball)
• The vanilla bonus tokens (+1 Card, etc.) (Training, Lost Arts, Pathfinding, Seaway, Teacher)
• The -$2 cost token. (Ferry)
• The Trashing token. (Plan)
• The Journey token. (Giant, Ranger, Pilgrimage)
• The Estate token, which I'm guessing is going to be an absolute bear to implement correctly. (Inheritance)

That's a lot of stuff to code and test.

The only one of those that seems like it would be hard is the Estate token, and that's only if they actually go to the trouble of using a sturdy implementation that is a true representation of what is happening, and not a quick hack.  After seeing how they resolved the "JackOfAllTrades" log bug I expect a quick hack so I'm not really seeing that many man-hours.

[LastFootnote]

I think for RC/CotR what there needs to be is just a little button: "Call a Reserve card."  It hovers in the spot currently taken by "End Actions".  The only reason you should ever be asked if you want to call RC (this does not apply to CotR in the least, we can make assumptions like there are for Moat) should be when you involve Throne Room et al.  Golem and Herald in particular will need this.

Yes, exactly. That's all new interface stuff that will have to be coded.

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, I read a post somewhere where they said 7 cards were already coded. I'm guessing it was the super easy cards like Port.

[LastFootnote]

Well, I read a post somewhere where they said 7 cards were already coded. I'm guessing it was the super easy cards like Port.

Part of me wishes we could buy Adventures now and just use the cards as they're implemented.

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, I read a post somewhere where they said 7 cards were already coded. I'm guessing it was the super easy cards like Port.

Part of me wishes we could buy Adventures now and just use the cards as they're implemented.

I would totally be up for this. If I recall correctly, Goko did it for Alchemy because they had a hard time implementing Possession.

[gkrieg13]

I think for RC/CotR what there needs to be is just a little button: "Call a Reserve card."  It hovers in the spot currently taken by "End Actions".  The only reason you should ever be asked if you want to call RC (this does not apply to CotR in the least, we can make assumptions like there are for Moat) should be when you involve Throne Room et al.  Golem and Herald in particular will need this.

Definitely read RC as rat catcher.  I thought having the button there all of the time grayed out would be awful and that you were trolling

[werothegreat]

Well, I read a post somewhere where they said 7 cards were already coded. I'm guessing it was the super easy cards like Port.

But... but how are they going to change the number of cards in the pile!?!?!?!?!? :O

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, I read a post somewhere where they said 7 cards were already coded. I'm guessing it was the super easy cards like Port.

But... but how are they going to change the number of cards in the pile!?!?!?!?!? :O

They did it for Rats. And, VP cards change from 8 to 12 depending on the amount of players playing. That seems a pretty easy thing for them to do.

[werothegreat]

Well, I read a post somewhere where they said 7 cards were already coded. I'm guessing it was the super easy cards like Port.

But... but how are they going to change the number of cards in the pile!?!?!?!?!? :O

They did it for Rats. And, VP cards change from 8 to 12 depending on the amount of players playing. That seems a pretty easy thing for them to do.

[Aleimon Thimble]

On a scrying pool engine my opponent opened Potion/Silver and I went for Potion/Pawn. Apparently my opponent was very impressed with my Pawn buy, because on turn 3 with $4P in play he also bought a Pawn.

Surely at least this one isn't MF's fault.  Unless you're criticizing their automatch functionality?

I believe he's doing exactly that.  No one should be matched with Stef who would buy Pawn with $4P on a Pool board.

Luckily nobody would ever make a mouseslip.

[Kirian]

On a scrying pool engine my opponent opened Potion/Silver and I went for Potion/Pawn. Apparently my opponent was very impressed with my Pawn buy, because on turn 3 with $4P in play he also bought a Pawn.

Surely at least this one isn't MF's fault.  Unless you're criticizing their automatch functionality?

I believe he's doing exactly that.  No one should be matched with Stef who would buy Pawn with $4P on a Pool board.

Luckily nobody would ever make a mouseslip.

One of the exceptionally few things that Goko had better than Isotropic is that it's really hard to misclick with the little plus signs.

[Watno]

Well, I read a post somewhere where they said 7 cards were already coded. I'm guessing it was the super easy cards like Port.

Maybe it's 7 of the 12 ports?

[Kirian]

Also, is everything really fuzzy for anyone else?

[GendoIkari]

Well, it looks like there is no web build yet, so I believe MF just announced my hiatus from dominion. Sad day.

Telling paying customers they can no longer play seems like a really huge problem to me.

Why can't iguanaiguana continue to play?

[Kirian]

Well, it looks like there is no web build yet, so I believe MF just announced my hiatus from dominion. Sad day.

Telling paying customers they can no longer play seems like a really huge problem to me.

Why can't iguanaiguana continue to play?

It appears to be available only on PC, Mac, and Linux.  He (and several others, I believe) have stated they only play on mobile.  The old web version was usable on mobile.  The new version isn't.

[werothegreat]

Well, it looks like there is no web build yet, so I believe MF just announced my hiatus from dominion. Sad day.

Telling paying customers they can no longer play seems like a really huge problem to me.

Why can't iguanaiguana continue to play?

It appears to be available only on PC, Mac, and Linux.  He (and several others, I believe) have stated they only play on mobile.  The old web version was usable on mobile.  The new version isn't.

They've said they're going to start beta testing an Android version.  iguanaiguana, you should definitely sign up for it.

[Roadrunner7671]

Well, it looks like there is no web build yet, so I believe MF just announced my hiatus from dominion. Sad day.

Telling paying customers they can no longer play seems like a really huge problem to me.

Why can't iguanaiguana continue to play?

It appears to be available only on PC, Mac, and Linux.  He (and several others, I believe) have stated they only play on mobile.  The old web version was usable on mobile.  The new version isn't.

They've said they're going to start beta testing an Android version.  iguanaiguana, you should definitely sign up for it.

Android!!??

[cactus]

Well, it looks like there is no web build yet, so I believe MF just announced my hiatus from dominion. Sad day.

Telling paying customers they can no longer play seems like a really huge problem to me.

Why can't iguanaiguana continue to play?

It appears to be available only on PC, Mac, and Linux.  He (and several others, I believe) have stated they only play on mobile.  The old web version was usable on mobile.  The new version isn't.

True for me. I do my home computing on an iPad.

No iPad app & no browser version = no dominion for me.

[iguanaiguana]

I typically play on a chromebook, so I need a web build but I'm not mobile. I do have an android, but I'm not keen on signing up for a closed beta I guess? I don't really want to report bugs. I just want to be a paying customer of dominion?

[Elanchana]

Tried the browser version today.



Um.

[Ampharos]

Tried the browser version today.



Um.

Prolly buy moat, that's their new "curse" attack. 

[werothegreat]

FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, THESE CARDS HAVE BEEN REDACTED.

[Gveoniz]

Are they Moats?

[JW]

I've played a bunch of games today too. Very similar experiences all the time.
People buying coppers because the have buys to spare (goons not included), people building up their fairgrounds score even though it's not on the board.
Players not answering at all when you chat to them.
It was sort of fun for a day, but it won't stay fun very long.

I had a Bishop-Fortress-Scheme-Rabble game against an opponent who bought Coppers on spare buys, starting on turn 2, and who didn't resign until I had over 110 points.

[iguanaiguana]

I've played a bunch of games today too. Very similar experiences all the time.
People buying coppers because the have buys to spare (goons not included), people building up their fairgrounds score even though it's not on the board.
Players not answering at all when you chat to them.
It was sort of fun for a day, but it won't stay fun very long.

I had a Bishop-Fortress-Scheme-Rabble game against an opponent who bought Coppers on spare buys, starting on turn 2, and who didn't resign until I had over 110 points.

I guess it took him a while to find the resign button 

[qmech]

They've stopped transmitting the card images to cut down on the thousands of dollars a month server costs.

[-Stef-]

I just found out they implemented a reconnect feature in the new client.

* just like the last version, it claimed I reconnected out of the blue. My internet connection never actually died.
* just like last version, I could just see the game at the point where I supposedly got stuck.
* just like last version, I could still chat with my opponent, but all other functionality in the game was frozen.
* unlike last version, I could still resign the game

yay, progress.

[BraveBear]

I downloaded the new version today.  Tried to play the online web browser version, it never loaded.  Downloaded the windows version.  Opened it and it popped up in full screen.  I tried to change the display and open it again but now it doesn't even open.

Really didn't want to spend time trying to make it work because I primary play on my work laptop at lunch (hence the reason I didn't want full screen) and when I'm home.  Downloading it was something I wasn't sure I was going to do but I wanted to play at lunch really bad today.

Anyways it seems like the new version has a lot of things wrong with it and I don't feel like downloading a patch.  I am really not a computer person at all.  Websites are easy to use, everything else is like Chinese to me.

So goko going off line will probably prevent me from playing in the up coming dominion league.  I really consider myself an above average player but I still do it very casually so trying to figure this out and make this new version work on my computer doesn't seem worth it.  Which is sad.

Or I could just be lazy.  What do you think?  Maybe I'll start playing again if they ever release Adventures.

[werothegreat]

Got paired with someone who used Horn of Plenty to gain an Estate.

[blueblimp]

Well, I read a post somewhere where they said 7 cards were already coded. I'm guessing it was the super easy cards like Port.

If I were implementing Dominion, I'd actually do the opposite and start with the hard cards. The reason is that if you try to implement a card like Band of Misfits and realize that you need to redesign your rules engine as a result, it takes less effort to implement the redesign if you don't already have a ton of cards implemented with the old design.

[iguanaiguana]

Yeah, so I tried the MF "Alpha web build" and this is what I got:



Again, sad day.

[Seprix]

Dropping by for a second. My gosh, is that metal armor hand mouse cursor ugly. Runs a lot smoother though.

[Seprix]

Yeah, so I tried the MF "Alpha web build" and this is what I got:



Again, sad day.

Google doesn't have a Unity plug-in by default, which is my best guess as to why that didn't work. Same message for me.

[XerxesPraelor]

I actually think it's a positively good way to play dominion now that the speed is finally up. I get that lots of people don't like the cursor/animations, but they're actually pretty pretty. (except the crystal ball during matches, which is actively ugly)

[sudgy]

Well, I read a post somewhere where they said 7 cards were already coded. I'm guessing it was the super easy cards like Port.

If I were implementing Dominion, I'd actually do the opposite and start with the hard cards. The reason is that if you try to implement a card like Band of Misfits and realize that you need to redesign your rules engine as a result, it takes less effort to implement the redesign if you don't already have a ton of cards implemented with the old design.

...or you could just be like me and do them alphabetically...

[werothegreat]

Well, I read a post somewhere where they said 7 cards were already coded. I'm guessing it was the super easy cards like Port.

If I were implementing Dominion, I'd actually do the opposite and start with the hard cards. The reason is that if you try to implement a card like Band of Misfits and realize that you need to redesign your rules engine as a result, it takes less effort to implement the redesign if you don't already have a ton of cards implemented with the old design.

...or you could just be like me and do them alphabetically...

I think you mean by cost, then alphabetically.

[mameluke]

Frankly they should have thrown in a few of the basic cards like Magpie or Artificer just to get us interested in playing Dominion Online again.

[Titandrake]

Wow I was not ready for that crystal ball.

As for the rating issue, I'd like to think it's because there haven't been enough games to normalize the ratings yet, but I'm confused why ratings weren't ported over. I was around 4700 on the old version, and now I'm around 2400 because...reasons?

[yed]

Wow I was not ready for that crystal ball.

As for the rating issue, I'd like to think it's because there haven't been enough games to normalize the ratings yet, but I'm confused why ratings weren't ported over. I was around 4700 on the old version, and now I'm around 2400 because...reasons?

Ratings were ported on the begining of June. But rating decresed by some amount each day you did not play on new version.

[werothegreat]

This amused me:

There are some cards I cannot stand...

...I don't even want to play anymore because the cards that irritate me keep popping up....

...I am aware that I can choose cards in a private game. That's not good enough, to be frank....

...I dropped $45 on pretend cards I already own....

...sometimes I'm just not in the mood to play with certain cards. For example, sometimes I don't have the time or patience to play chained village games. In the old version, I would just randomize until I had no villages....

...I don't want to play if I'm just going to get irritated....

[GendoIkari]

This amused me:

There are some cards I cannot stand...

...I don't even want to play anymore because the cards that irritate me keep popping up....

...I am aware that I can choose cards in a private game. That's not good enough, to be frank....

...I dropped $45 on pretend cards I already own....

...sometimes I'm just not in the mood to play with certain cards. For example, sometimes I don't have the time or patience to play chained village games. In the old version, I would just randomize until I had no villages....

...I don't want to play if I'm just going to get irritated....

What's this a quote from?

[werothegreat]

http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?7942-Just-tried-the-new-version-pretty-unhappy

[cactus]

Well, it looks like there is no web build yet, so I believe MF just announced my hiatus from dominion. Sad day.

Telling paying customers they can no longer play seems like a really huge problem to me.

Why can't iguanaiguana continue to play?

It appears to be available only on PC, Mac, and Linux.  He (and several others, I believe) have stated they only play on mobile.  The old web version was usable on mobile.  The new version isn't.

True for me. I do my home computing on an iPad.

No iPad app & no browser version = no dominion for me.

Hey it would be great to play a game or three of dominion before I turn in for the night. Except of course I can't.

[GendoIkari]

http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?7942-Just-tried-the-new-version-pretty-unhappy

Thanks. Also, what about it do you find funny? The idea that he doesn't like playing boards that allow engines, or am I missing something else?

[SCSN]

the pro players like three and four player games

...

[Beyond Awesome]

the pro players like three and four player games

...

Uhh. Maybe someone should tell him...

[werothegreat]

http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?7942-Just-tried-the-new-version-pretty-unhappy

Thanks. Also, what about it do you find funny? The idea that he doesn't like playing boards that allow engines, or am I missing something else?

Pretty much that.  At least for me, Dominion is at its most fun when we're all doing ridiculous engines.

[assemble_me]

the pro players like three and four player games

...

Not sure whether I'd rather laugh or cry.

[SCSN]

I considered responding affirmatively and requesting to make every pro game a 4-player one, so that even if a 3rd/4th player isn't readily available, one or two bots will be added to replace them.

But what scared me off was that the idea sounds so completely awful and utterly insane that they might well run with it and have it implemented within a week.

[A Drowned Kernel]

So I played the new version for the very first time today, and I have to say it wasn't that bad. Granted I didn't experience any slowdown or crashes, but they seemed to have implemented a lot of the Salvager features, and there solution to keeping everything on one page was a little disorienting at first but is at least a better solution than Goko's. The music also didn't work but I'm prepared to call that a plus.

[Titandrake]

One interesting thing is that there's no minimum set option for automatch. As someone who didn't own any sets, I accepted a longer automatch time in exchange for not having to spend money. Now, I will often get automatched with someone else who owns no cards, and we have an oddly high level Base Set Battle.

(This isn't a criticism, I think it's entirely reasonable they do this.)

Honestly, the new version is okay, but I wish the log was more readable, and I don't get why avatars need to show up in the game chat. I don't like how the rating system is opaque, I have no idea how many points I've gained/lost for each game. That makes it hard to figure out why I lost 100 points for going 2-1 against someone...

[AHoppy]

Anyone else still having the new client make your computer run hot?  My crappy laptop still sounds like it's about to take off when I play Dominion...  I don't think it's as bad as when it first came out, but still...

[gkrieg13]

Anyone else still having the new client make your computer run hot?  My crappy laptop still sounds like it's about to take off when I play Dominion...  I don't think it's as bad as when it first came out, but still...

It's not too bad for me anymore.

[qmech]

The main thing that's still striking me as odd is that every time I hit the Play button I get some probably-not-random-but-definitely-not-always-the-same-as-last-time set of options selected.  It would be convenient if it always remembered your settings. 

The rematch feature is great for finding games quickly though.

[Ratsia]

Anyone else still having the new client make your computer run hot?  My crappy laptop still sounds like it's about to take off when I play Dominion...

It's still terribly bad for me, on a 2012 MacBook Air. Yesterday I accidentally left the client running on background while writing an email, only to notice that after a couple of minutes the fan was at max speed. The funny thing is I wasn't even playing a game but instead the only thing I had done since starting the client was opening the Campaign selection map and the game was idling there.

[Moneymodel]

I really like the new platform. Really really. It's a little annoying that I can't just play it on other computers if I want, but I've been able to get around it. Seeking is great, one-page-kingdom is great, being able to bypass VP tokens to get Promo cards was fantastic. I even like how it shows you the empty piles when the game's over. The only problem I've had is that once, little cards just randomly appeared on the left side of the screen, covering my opponent's avatar. But that's so, so small.

[popsofctown]

I guess new players and player acquisition are probably least negatively affected by the poor matchmaking, since the skill distribution is probably bottom heavy?

[qmech]

I guess new players and player acquisition are probably least negatively affected by the poor matchmaking, since the skill distribution is probably bottom heavy?

I introduced a new player to Dominion but they quit after auto-match kept matching them up with people playing OP legendaries like Taxman and Rogue.

[blueblimp]

I guess new players and player acquisition are probably least negatively affected by the poor matchmaking, since the skill distribution is probably bottom heavy?

Well there's also people like this guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/dominion/comments/3pp47b/i_am_a_begginer_and_only_get_matched_with_freaks/.

[GendoIkari]

I guess new players and player acquisition are probably least negatively affected by the poor matchmaking, since the skill distribution is probably bottom heavy?

Well there's also people like this guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/dominion/comments/3pp47b/i_am_a_begginer_and_only_get_matched_with_freaks/.

I think I would amend / disagree with AdamH's statement there. Playing players who are slightly to moderately better than you is the best way to get better at the game. Playing players who are much better than you is not. If a player is much better than you, then he may be playing on a level that you can't simply copy and learn from.

[Kirian]

I guess new players and player acquisition are probably least negatively affected by the poor matchmaking, since the skill distribution is probably bottom heavy?

Well there's also people like this guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/dominion/comments/3pp47b/i_am_a_begginer_and_only_get_matched_with_freaks/.

It's so weird to me that there is a reddit Dominion page.  Don't they know about the forum?

(Yeah, I hate Reddit for its format.)

[Kirian]

Just got matched against someone who opened Worker's Village/Silver on a Rebuild board... then used his first $5 on a Bandit Camp.

I mean, I'm not a great player, but how?  How??

[jsh357]

I guess new players and player acquisition are probably least negatively affected by the poor matchmaking, since the skill distribution is probably bottom heavy?

Well there's also people like this guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/dominion/comments/3pp47b/i_am_a_begginer_and_only_get_matched_with_freaks/.

It's so weird to me that there is a reddit Dominion page.  Don't they know about the forum?

(Yeah, I hate Reddit for its format.)

Dedicated forums are one of the dinosaurs of social media; a lot of people these days prefer to stick to a universal site like reddit, twitter, or 4chan where they don't need to get new logins and such. It's a fascinating subject.

[Kirian]

I guess new players and player acquisition are probably least negatively affected by the poor matchmaking, since the skill distribution is probably bottom heavy?

Well there's also people like this guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/dominion/comments/3pp47b/i_am_a_begginer_and_only_get_matched_with_freaks/.

It's so weird to me that there is a reddit Dominion page.  Don't they know about the forum?

(Yeah, I hate Reddit for its format.)

Dedicated forums are one of the dinosaurs of social media; a lot of people these days prefer to stick to a universal site like reddit, twitter, or 4chan where they don't need to get new logins and such. It's a fascinating subject.

*shakes cane*

[werothegreat]

For niche things, like deckbuilders, forums tend to be more knowledgeable and in-the-loop than reddit.

[Burning Skull]

Being a part of such a great online community can't be undervalued. I mean, that's my first one, and may as well be the last one too. Love you all, whiiiiiiiiii!!!!!!