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Roadrunner7671

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Walled Village
« on: October 24, 2015, 06:12:58 pm »
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I already went on a short rant about Black Market, now it's time for me to talk about Walled Village. A lot of people are saying 'Walled Village is so bad' and 'Walled Village never should've been made.' These people are forgetting many things about Walled Village:

1. It's still a Village! Villages are super good!
2. The price of Village and Walled Village aren't that different. It's common knowledge that the jump from $3 to $4 is a lot less than the jump from $4 to $5.
2. It's strictly better than Vanilla Village.
3. It's a promo card. If you don't like it, you never have to play with it.
4. They can't all be the best $4 card ever.

In an unreliable engine, Walled Village makes it a lot more reliable! Just keep top decking your Walled Village until you line it up and have a big turn. If you have 3-4 terminal actions in a slog (think Mountebank, Ambassador, Sea Hag, etc) keep top decking your Walled Village! When you have terminal collision, you put your Walled Village to great use. Why don't people complain about Stash instead? It's a lot weaker than Walled Village! Even though Walled Village is strictly worse than Scout*, I still think it's a great addition to your engine deck, and you should be happy to see it in the Kingdom.

*Excluding 1-2 edgecases
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Awaclus

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2015, 06:20:29 pm »
+3

Walled Village is definitely a good card. Even Farming Village is a good card when there are no other cheap splitters on the board, and Farming Village is literally just a $4 vanilla Village, unlike WV which actually has an ability which sometimes does something useful.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2015, 06:40:07 pm »
+1

Who says walked village should have never been made
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theJester

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2015, 06:44:19 pm »
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Most of the games I played with Walled Village, it would have been little to no better than vanilla Village were it on the board. It doesn't matter much, however - if I need a village in my deck, I'm more than willing to pay $4 for it.
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DG

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2015, 06:46:24 pm »
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I have no objection to walled village, per se, but it doesn't really change the game a great deal. It doesn't give you interesting decisions. Even in kingdoms where you can use the walled village ability, playing it better than your opponent is unlikely to be decisive.

Stash gets a lot of undue criticism but it can decisively change a game, it always provides decisions, and sometimes needs innovative thinking on how to position your cards.
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yuma

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2015, 06:56:01 pm »
+3

I guess my main beef with it was that it seemed like a poor use for a promo.

It was/is just too vanilla to ever want to specifically buy separately. I have it because I obtained it in a pack with the other promos. But I would never shell out $5 for Walled Village when it is basically just Village but a little bit different.

Now Stash or Black Market or Governor. Those I would consider buying isolation because they are fun, different and unique and add something special to the game.

But there is nothing wrong with the card I just wonder if there was something else that could have been put out. And maybe there wasn't anything at the time... which is totally fine.
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AdamH

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2015, 07:06:31 pm »
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I believe the main synergies for Walled Village are Torturer and Ambassador, maybe Mercenary? Eh, I'm less sure about that one. Anyways, with these cards you can really see Walled Village's ability shine to the point where you would actually think about it as something more than just a village. On most other boards, it's a vanilla Village for $4. I'd say I care about its ability the least out of the "village-plus-cool-thing" cards, but it's not too terribly far behind Farming Village; at least when you're playing IRL it's much easier to play than Farming Village.
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Donald X.

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2015, 12:15:21 am »
+5

I guess my main beef with it was that it seemed like a poor use for a promo.
Everything is a poor use for a promo! If the card is good then it should be in an expansion, and if it's not then it still isn't as a promo.

But yes Walled Village is dull.
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yuma

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2015, 01:36:48 am »
+1

I guess my main beef with it was that it seemed like a poor use for a promo.
Everything is a poor use for a promo! If the card is good then it should be in an expansion, and if it's not then it still isn't as a promo.

But yes Walled Village is dull.

That is a pickle!

But I would say that black market is the perfect promo (stash as well I think). In that both are soooooo weird that they don't really fit the expansion mold. They break "the rules" a little too much for an expansion. Walled village doesn't break any "rules."

Other cards I could have seen being promos, if they weren't already in expansions are: smugglers (cares about opponents's previous turn), Masquerade (passes cards) and maybe a few others (contraband, treasure map). All are a little weird and funky and introduce aspects of the game that no other card really covered before like black market with the buy phase and stash with the back.

At least that is how i feel about promos. Good or bad doesn't really matter to me. Weird or boring does a bit more. But honestly this is a minor complaint. Any new cards are going to be appreciated by me regardless of format.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2015, 02:51:24 am »
+3

1. It's still a Village! Villages are super good!
2. The price of Village and Walled Village aren't that different. It's common knowledge that the jump from $3 to $4 is a lot less than the jump from $4 to $5.
2. It's strictly better than Vanilla Village.
3. It's a promo card. If you don't like it, you never have to play with it.
4. They can't all be the best $4 card ever.

1. Nobody's said otherwise.
2. Nobody's said otherwise.
2. It's not strictly better than Village.  The effect is strictly better, but the card as a whole is not.
3. This is true of all kingdom cards.
4. Nobody's said otherwise. :P
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ehunt

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2015, 04:16:31 am »
+1

Walled Village is definitely a good card. Even Farming Village is a good card when there are no other cheap splitters on the board, and Farming Village is literally just a $4 vanilla Village, unlike WV which actually has an ability which sometimes does something useful.

fighting words!! farming village is just great. the problem is that it only helps you in an invisible way (particularly when you play online). but also there's the combo with apothecary, mystic,...

walled village is fine too, but is still the worst 4 cost village. but it's still fine because hey sometimes you need villages and are willing to pay 4 for them. (i mean raise your hand if you haven't paid 6 for a nobles just for use as a necropolis.)
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Chris is me

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2015, 09:43:56 am »
+2

People tend to think cards are bad when they are nearly strictly worse than other cards, but since you can't buy every card in every game of Dominion, it's really irrelevant.

Walled Village isn't a bad card because it's a village and it doesn't cost an insane amount of Coin. Is it bad enough that you wouldn't pursue an engine just because it's the only Village? Of course not.

If there's literally any other village on the table, when would you buy Walled Village first? If Hamlet or Inn is the other village, and you really need the draw I guess. Or if Border Village / Nobles is the other Village and you can't afford it yet. Very rarely it's because of its effect at all.

Also, y'all give Farming Village too much shit; it's a perfectly good Village that has a lot of value in certain engines and situations (junk attacks, Apothecary, etc)
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GendoIkari

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2015, 11:22:27 am »
0

I guess my main beef with it was that it seemed like a poor use for a promo.
Everything is a poor use for a promo! If the card is good then it should be in an expansion, and if it's not then it still isn't as a promo.

But yes Walled Village is dull.

Perhaps a question for the interview thread, but... is your feeling about promos because promos are a special thing that people don't consider regular cards from regular sets, or because they are an individual thing outside of a full expansion? Or both?

What I mean is, would you have a different opinion about a card that was sold as its own expansion, but not called a promo? Would you ever consider releasing cards intended to be sold as stand-alone sets? Something that's not "promo-like", good enough that it could be in an expansion, but hey, maybe there's not enough ideas for new full expansions.
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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2015, 11:44:35 am »
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Everything is a poor use for a promo! If the card is good then it should be in an expansion, and if it's not then it still isn't as a promo.

Black Market is a great use for a promo. Though it is the best card in Dominion, it adds a lot of setup to a game and needing to read the cards in the Black Market deck can take a lot of time for players who aren't very experienced. Online, Black Market shines because the setup issue goes away, there are lots of experienced players, and it's just as easy to buy a promo as any other card.
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Donald X.

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2015, 12:06:41 pm »
+1

Perhaps a question for the interview thread, but... is your feeling about promos because promos are a special thing that people don't consider regular cards from regular sets, or because they are an individual thing outside of a full expansion? Or both?
No.

Expansions just beat promos by every metric.

Expansions are great. They are products we sell, that's good for us. They have 25 or so cards, yeeha. I've got space to fiddle with what % of the time I want you to have +Buy or whatever; I can make the cards play well together. You can just buy whatever expansions you want whenever you want to, in English anyway. They have mechanical themes and flavor themes.

Promos exist because publishers want them, to use promotionally. Players like them because they're more stuff, one more card or whatever. But they're harder to get, more expensive per card for players, just one card, no room to balance for sets-of-10, no ability to have a theme. The rules are on a piece of paper you lose and then the internet. We don't sell them (when you buy them on BGG, you are paying BGG). Conceivably they have promotional value but I don't know how to measure that.

When a promo is a cool card, it's depriving an expansion of a cool card. The expansions need all the cool cards they can get, to be awesome expansions; they do not want to pass up on a single cool card, not even one. When a promo is wacky, that's poor, it's this wacky thing you don't have the rules for. If it's too wacky for a set, really, it's too wacky for a promo. And when a promo is dull, why bother?

Promos are good for the situations where there won't be an expansion; instead of that cool card not existing at all, it gets to be a promo. That's it; otherwise they're bad. I just do them to be friendly to publishers.

It feels like I've said this all before and wait, I have: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5799.msg466880;topicseen#msg466880

What I mean is, would you have a different opinion about a card that was sold as its own expansion, but not called a promo? Would you ever consider releasing cards intended to be sold as stand-alone sets? Something that's not "promo-like", good enough that it could be in an expansion, but hey, maybe there's not enough ideas for new full expansions.
A one-card expansion would be bad in a pile of new ways.

The expansions were going to be 20 cards. You get, or got, deals on particular numbers of cards; 25 was a better choice for Intrigue. So they were all going to be 25. Then HiG wanted smaller expansions. They thought these would be good products. They envisioned 5-card expansions. The lowest I was willing to go was 12, due to the issue of wanting to have some effect on the frequency of villages etc.; hence Alchemy. The size was not really what HiG wanted (too big for a small cheap impulse purchase), and it turned out that players significantly prefer the large expansions, as clearly seen from sales. Hence now Cornucopia and Guilds are one box.
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Donald X.

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2015, 12:07:44 pm »
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Everything is a poor use for a promo! If the card is good then it should be in an expansion, and if it's not then it still isn't as a promo.

Black Market is a great use for a promo. Though it is the best card in Dominion, it adds a lot of setup to a game and needing to read the cards in the Black Market deck can take a lot of time for players who aren't very experienced. Online, Black Market shines because the setup issue goes away, there are lots of experienced players, and it's just as easy to buy a promo as any other card.
Black Market is too wacky to have as a card with no rulebook, and too good to deprive an expansion of it.
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werothegreat

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2015, 01:34:29 pm »
0

Speaking of Promos, any word on when Summon will be available in English?
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Voltaire

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2015, 04:54:05 pm »
+2

Speaking of Promos, any word on when Summon will be available in English?

It's supposed to be at U-Con, and based on this post, they physically already have the cards. So I assume it's got to be hitting BGG soon.
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Donald X.

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Re: Walled Village
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2015, 05:04:15 pm »
+7

Speaking of Promos, any word on when Summon will be available in English?
My only information is Voltaire's post that showed up when I tried to post that I had no information.
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