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[scott_pilgrim]

I think this is good and we can just add the thing I suggested about when it defaults to active or passive.

[faust]

X-Shot

I think it should include that it can also be applied to modifiers, e.g. Ninja.

Also, there should be a standard as to whether the usage of the shot is active or passive. Usually, we understand that a "1-shot Cop" uses his shot as an active choice, while a "1-shot Bulletproof" just triggers when targetted. But the template should specify a universal standard.

I think x-shot should default to inherit activity/passivity from whatever role or modifier it modifies.  Since cop defaults to active, the 1-shot in 1-shot cop also defaults to active.  Since Bulletproof defaults to passive, the 1-shot in 1-shot BP defaults to passive.  Mods can still break the default by saying "active 1-shot Bulletproof" if they like.

Is Ninja active or passive though?

[ashersky]

We have Vanilla Cop -- in that it looks for Vanilla / Not Vanilla.

So Vanilla is a role, if we can search for it.  I don't think it is a placeholder.  Even if it was, a placeholder is in and of itself a thing -- and that thing can be a role.

[Witherweaver]

We have Vanilla Cop -- in that it looks for Vanilla / Not Vanilla.

So Vanilla is a role, if we can search for it.  I don't think it is a placeholder.  Even if it was, a placeholder is in and of itself a thing -- and that thing can be a role.

You could easily and equivalently say that Vanilla Cop looks for not a Role/ Has a Role.

[ashersky]

We have Vanilla Cop -- in that it looks for Vanilla / Not Vanilla.

So Vanilla is a role, if we can search for it.  I don't think it is a placeholder.  Even if it was, a placeholder is in and of itself a thing -- and that thing can be a role.

You could easily and equivalently say that Vanilla Cop looks for not a Role/ Has a Role.

We could.  And we should change the name, then.

[Witherweaver]

We have Vanilla Cop -- in that it looks for Vanilla / Not Vanilla.

So Vanilla is a role, if we can search for it.  I don't think it is a placeholder.  Even if it was, a placeholder is in and of itself a thing -- and that thing can be a role.

You could easily and equivalently say that Vanilla Cop looks for not a Role/ Has a Role.

We could.  And we should change the name, then.

I think it's fine as "Vanilla Cop", and even returning "Vanilla" or "Not Vanilla" is fine, where "Vanilla" is a Boolean that is True if target has a role and False if not.

[Witherweaver]

We have Vanilla Cop -- in that it looks for Vanilla / Not Vanilla.

So Vanilla is a role, if we can search for it.  I don't think it is a placeholder.  Even if it was, a placeholder is in and of itself a thing -- and that thing can be a role.

You could easily and equivalently say that Vanilla Cop looks for not a Role/ Has a Role.

We could.  And we should change the name, then.

I think it's fine as "Vanilla Cop", and even returning "Vanilla" or "Not Vanilla" is fine, where "Vanilla" is a Boolean that is True if target has a role and False if not.

I mean, False if target has a role and True if not.

[faust]

We have Vanilla Cop -- in that it looks for Vanilla / Not Vanilla.

So Vanilla is a role, if we can search for it.  I don't think it is a placeholder.  Even if it was, a placeholder is in and of itself a thing -- and that thing can be a role.

What do you call a player without a role?

[ashersky]

We have Vanilla Cop -- in that it looks for Vanilla / Not Vanilla.

So Vanilla is a role, if we can search for it.  I don't think it is a placeholder.  Even if it was, a placeholder is in and of itself a thing -- and that thing can be a role.

What do you call a player without a role?

Not playing the game.

[ashersky]

It's called a Role PM for all players.

[faust]

The important question to ask is: What is a role?

[Witherweaver]

The important question to ask is: What is a role?

It's our role to answer that question.

[ashersky]

The important question to ask is: What is a role?

For me, it's the character you've been assigned in the game -- whether that is the cop or ensemble cast member.  Remember the nameless Star Trek ensigns?  They were still Ensign #1 or whatever.  That's the VT for me.  Same with the nameless bad guys who die around the big boss.

When I send out a role PM, I'm saying "here, this is the part I've assigned you" and am asking you to play it.  That's your role in this game.  I've thought of "townie" as a role, and up to now, Vanilla Townie has been a role in and of itself.  After these discussions, I'm thinking it's a role with a modifier.

I'd like for us to settle in "townie" and "goon" as base roles one can be assigned in a game.  Theoretically, we can have Mafia Townies and Town Goons if we want -- but I don't want, and none of us has to use those combinations.

[faust]

The important question to ask is: What is a role?

For me, it's the character you've been assigned in the game -- whether that is the cop or ensemble cast member.  Remember the nameless Star Trek ensigns?  They were still Ensign #1 or whatever.  That's the VT for me.  Same with the nameless bad guys who die around the big boss.

When I send out a role PM, I'm saying "here, this is the part I've assigned you" and am asking you to play it.  That's your role in this game.  I've thought of "townie" as a role, and up to now, Vanilla Townie has been a role in and of itself.  After these discussions, I'm thinking it's a role with a modifier.

I'd like for us to settle in "townie" and "goon" as base roles one can be assigned in a game.  Theoretically, we can have Mafia Townies and Town Goons if we want -- but I don't want, and none of us has to use those combinations.

Well, this is a reasonable answer. But I think if this is where you stand, we have just been talking past each other.

From this I deduce that "role" for you means the whole thing. "Town-aligned Ninja Rolestopper" is a role. And that very well fits with how we use the term.

But then the question is, if I single out "Rolestopper" from this, what do you call it? It cannot be a role, because a player being a "Rolestopper" has no alignment, and no PM can come without alignment. There needs to be another word for this particle. I (and scott I think) have been calling this "role", but then what do we call the whole thing? Role has a double meaning here, and we need to create a new term. It's probably better to create a name for the "Rolestopper" part, and keep "role" as a name for the whole thing.

[ashersky]

That's a fair discussion to have.

I guess we do use "role" for both the base power and the entire title.  Using Town-aligned Ninja Rolestopper as the example...

Town-aligned (although I'd say we can say "town" is equivalent) is a modifier.
Ninja is a modifier.
Rolestopper is the role.

That's my breakdown.  But we'd also say that "Town Ninja Rolestopper" is also the assigned player's "role."

I think a comparison could be car models.  BMW has series, which are then modified by engine size, engine type, and line.

There's the X5, which becomes the X5 30d, which come be the X5 30d M Sport.

We could say "base role" for the "rolestopper" in the example?

[Jimmmmm]

What if you had say Rolestopping Godfather? Would you then say that person has two base roles?

[ashersky]

What if you had say Rolestopping Godfather? Would you then say that person has two base roles?

I don't know.  Rolestopping =/= Rolestopper, in my opinion.  I'd lean toward Rolestopper and Godfather instead.

[Jimmmmm]

Rolestopping =/= Rolestopper, in my opinion.

What's the difference?

[Twistedarcher]

Do you consider Serial Killer to be a role or an alignment. It's an alignment to me, but I know that you've disagreed in the past about that, Ash.

I don't think VT is a role. It's a "Role PM", but I think the VT PM is basically saying "Nope, you have no role this game, sorry!"

[faust]

Rolestopping =/= Rolestopper, in my opinion.

What's the difference?

I think rolestopping is only something that modifiers an already existing role. Like If I'm a Rolestopping Cop, I am a Cop who also rolestops his target. Basically any targetting I do additionally rolestops the target. But the modifier itself does not grant the power to actually target players. So a Rolestopping Godfather could not just rolestop someone, but if he performs the factional kill, then the target would also be rolestopped.

[faust]

Do you consider Serial Killer to be a role or an alignment. It's an alignment to me, but I know that you've disagreed in the past about that, Ash.

I don't think VT is a role. It's a "Role PM", but I think the VT PM is basically saying "Nope, you have no role this game, sorry!"

By the definition we have now, Serial Killer is a role. As is VT (VT is arguably the empty role). However, both are not base roles. A Serial Killer is a Self-aligned Vigilante; Vigilante being the (alignment-independent) base role.

I think base roles should generally be alignment-independent.

[ashersky]

Do you consider Serial Killer to be a role or an alignment. It's an alignment to me, but I know that you've disagreed in the past about that, Ash.

I don't think VT is a role. It's a "Role PM", but I think the VT PM is basically saying "Nope, you have no role this game, sorry!"

By the definition we have now, Serial Killer is a role. As is VT (VT is arguably the empty role). However, both are not base roles. A Serial Killer is a Self-aligned Vigilante; Vigilante being the (alignment-independent) base role.

I think base roles should generally be alignment-independent.

This.