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[Aleimon Thimble]

So I've been thinking about something. It has happened more than once that I built a pretty cool engine, but just when you've finally started to get it going, it's already time to green because the game is coming to an end. Kind of demoralizing if you ask me.

Colony games, however, are different. You can get away with building up your engine just a bit more, because (preferably) you want to reach $22 with 2+ buys anyway, and it takes longer for the game to end. Therefore, in general, I find Colony games a lot more fun, and I imagine most engine players would.

So why isn't Colony the standard? I understand the official rules say you can only play with Colony if you include Prosperity cards, and even then you have to raffle for it.. but can't we bend the rules just a little bit if it makes the game so much more fun? I mean, it's not like we're changing something big, rule-wise. Of course, some boards prefer no Colonies, but I'm not saying we should play Colonies every single game, just that it should be the standard from which we can deviate when needed.

I'm not an expert though, just started playing a bit more serious the last couple of months, so I wonder what the people here think. Do you prefer Colony games in general, and do you also think it would be more fun if it were the standard? Or is everything fine the way it is?

[LastFootnote]

Personally I like things fine the way they are. I feel like there's a good amount of engine building in non-Colony games. And as players get better at building engines, that potential increases.

[CG19]

I enjoy it the way it is.

In many engines, treasures are stop cards and for players that like engines, treasures are relatively boring. With Colonies also comes Platinums (apparently, that's the plural form...I prefer Platina) which are extremely valuable in Colony games. I find that I buy more treasures in Colony games because of their high price point and in Province games, I use virtual coins much more. That's my 2 coppers.

The fun of Province games is guessing when the game is going to end. It could be quick and you have to build around that, it could be a slog, or something in between. Do you want to build a deck that buys 2 Provinces every turn? Or is it a megaturn game? Really, the game lasts as long as you and your opponent make it last.

[Kirian]

(apparently, that's the plural form...I prefer Platina)

"Platina" refers to a mixture of Pt with Ir, Os, and sometimes other non-rusting metals.

[DG]

So I've been thinking about something. It has happened more than once that I built a pretty cool engine, but just when you've finally started to get it going, it's already time to green because the game is coming to an end. Kind of demoralizing if you ask me.

That's a bit like sprinter complaining that he's only getting up to full speed at the end of the 100m and the race is already at an end. If you want to win you need to be quick out of the blocks and get up to speed quickly. That's one skill of engine building.

Another skill of engine building is to make sure your deck is strong enough to overtake an opponent who takes a lead, even if it's a lead of two provinces or more.

[AdamH]

I understand the official rules say you can only play with Colony if you include Prosperity cards, and even then you have to raffle for it.. but can't we bend the rules just a little bit if it makes the game so much more fun?

*puts on Donald X. hat* Man, if you like Colonies, play all of your games with Colonies. Nobody is forcing you to do something you don't want to do. *removes hat*

I apologize for that, my impressions are apparently notoriously bad.

So I've been thinking about something. It has happened more than once that I built a pretty cool engine, but just when you've finally started to get it going, it's already time to green because the game is coming to an end. Kind of demoralizing if you ask me.

So yeah that's happened to me more than once as well. My reaction isn't "let's change the game so that the strategy I enjoy playing is made better" but rather "you make your own shuffle luck." In so many cases, engines just beat the pants off of big money because engines are really really good; even on Province boards.

If your engine didn't get there fast enough to win against Big Money, there's this whole step in the middle where you look for ways you could have played better to make your engine faster or slow your opponent down. Heck, I'd look at my unfortunate draws for vindication before I'd say that Colony games are just better and I felt dirty just typing that sentence (out of context thread here I come!) Make sure you aren't just skipping that step.

The more you do this, the better you'll be at knowing when an engine is too weak and you should just play Big Money. I think you'll find that Big Money is the correct answer a staggering amount of the time, even without Colonies.

[Awaclus]

I actually don't like Colony games as much because I always play like 5 turns before I notice the Colonies.

[popsofctown]

Wasn't "bias for prosperity" a trend on iso for a while?  Don't let the people in this thread make you feel like the only person to ever prefer Colony play.

On average, I think I enjoy Colony games more than Province games, but I think that is because Colony games are underrepresented.  I enjoy lobster more than steak, but I eat 10 times as much steak as lobster, and if I ate even amounts of each I expect diminishing returns might give steak the edge.

Platinum is more provincey than province ever could be a lot of times, in the way they cut off engines.  It depends on the board, but sometimes you hit 9 twice, buy plats because they are definitely better than 5's, then you finally hit 10 with 2 sources of +buy, but now you buy Platinum because your deck has 2 Platinum in it already, how you are going to have a smooth engine with all that treasure?
I think Colonies without Platinum would be immensely interesting, but that's a Variant and that's the V word.

If you sought out to assign every nonvariant Dominion kingdom an equal chance of appearing, you would bend the Prosperity rules so that Plats+Cols appear 50% of the time (since King's Court and the first 9 base cards and no plats is one nonvariant kingdom, and King's court and the first 9 base cards with Plats+Cols is another nonvariant kingdom, and thus to make them appear equally you would use a 50% chance instead of 10%).  But most would prefer to accept the % of the time the rules proscribe, because there doesn't seem to be sufficiently overwhelming evidence that the proportion of the time Donald proscribed is too low.  I think most would agree that the ideal % is closer to Donald's proscription than it is to 50%.  I personally would argue platinum is a large part of the reason we can't visit that gilded place too often without tiring of it, and wish platless colony games were legitimate, but that isn't how it is, so I try to enjoy the extended greening phases of Fairgrounds sort of games instead.

[AdamH]

+1 for steak/lobster reference.

<3 lobster <3

[liopoil]

I actually don't like Colony games as much because I always play like 5 turns before I notice the Colonies.

At least you effectively play with colonies for 5 fewer turns, so you don't have to deal with them as much.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I wouldn't mind if for online play they found a way to artificially increase the number of Colony games in Pro mode once Adventures (and any future expansions) is online, since each new expansion dilutes the number of Prosperity cards in the total pool.

[Beyond Awesome]

I wouldn't mind if for online play they found a way to artificially increase the number of Colony games in Pro mode once Adventures (and any future expansions) is online, since each new expansion dilutes the number of Prosperity cards in the total pool.

I agree with this. Adventures adds 30 kingdom cards which is a lot. I don't think we need a lot of games to be Colony games but maybe 1 out of every 10.

[Eevee]

You are completely allowed to tweak the setup any way you prefer, dominion is great like that. For me most fun is forcing black market into every kingdom, but I'm happy to see colonies too. Feel free to play whatever way your group finds most fun. Online the experience is probably best with full random boards, just because you get to play with the toughest competition, but even online you can play kingdoms you like when matching up with someone you know (and who likes similar things than you).

[Tables]

I agree with this. Adventures adds 30 kingdom cards which is a lot. I don't think we need a lot of games to be Colony games but maybe 1 out of every 10.

Well, there's 236 Kingdom Cards including Adventures, right, and 25 of those are Prosperity, which gives a 10.6% chance... so pretty much what you're suggesting here.

I'd quite like the odds to be a little higher though. Maybe somewhere around 20%-25%, or about 1 in 5 to 1 in 4 games. Same with Shelters, really, although their odds are naturally already a touch higher (35 in 236 is about a 14.8% chance or about 1 in 6.7).

Maybe what could be done is that you 'roll' for Colony/Platinum twice, if you have sufficiently many cards owned. I'm not going to work the overall odds this would give of getting a Colony game, but to give an idea, that would mean a 19% chance with one Prosperity card, a 36% chance with two, a 51% chance with three and a 64% chance with four. I might actually work out the overall odds tomorrow morning (if nobody else decides to do it anyway for fun), basically it's just a case of working out the odds of having X Prosperity cards in a game, then multiply by the above numbers (and work out the rest for 5-10 Prosperity cards). Pretty straight forward.

[Eran of Arcadia]

So I play 2P RL games with my wife, and we take turns choosing the kingdom. Whether to use Plats and Colonies or not, and whether to use estates or shelters to start, is just one of the decisions made by the person choosing the kingdom cards. I think we end up in a lobster/steak situation because we pull them out maybe 1/10 of the time. I mean, it was awesome that one game when I had $33 and 3 buys and there were 3 colonies left in the supply, but every game being like that would be tedious.

tl;dr do whatever you want. It's fun!

[terminalCopper]

Imho every board with rebuild should include colonies as well.

[Awaclus]

Imho every board with rebuild should include colonies as well.

Well, in that case it's just easier to take out the Rebuild.

[Aleimon Thimble]

So I've been thinking about something. It has happened more than once that I built a pretty cool engine, but just when you've finally started to get it going, it's already time to green because the game is coming to an end. Kind of demoralizing if you ask me.

That's a bit like sprinter complaining that he's only getting up to full speed at the end of the 100m and the race is already at an end. If you want to win you need to be quick out of the blocks and get up to speed quickly. That's one skill of engine building.

Another skill of engine building is to make sure your deck is strong enough to overtake an opponent who takes a lead, even if it's a lead of two provinces or more.

This is not a completely fair comparison, because not everyone is a sprinter. I prefer the middle ground: 5Ks, 10Ks, stuff like that. Dominion is sometimes a bit like a 2K or 3K: pretty awesome but it would be even better if it were just a bit longer. It's not a full-fledged sprint like Metropolis or something, and it's definitely not a marathon like Twilight Imperium.

It's not that my engines are too weak and I should have played Big Money, it's just that it would have been more fun spending even more time on engine building without feeling the necessity to green or risk a loss. Well, sometimes I make mistakes and lose, of course, but that was not what I was talking about.

I'm also not complaining or anything, I was just sincerely wondering if there were more people who prefer Colony games. Turns out that there are, but we're a minority. Good to know!

[Beyond Awesome]

I agree with this. Adventures adds 30 kingdom cards which is a lot. I don't think we need a lot of games to be Colony games but maybe 1 out of every 10.

Well, there's 236 Kingdom Cards including Adventures, right, and 25 of those are Prosperity, which gives a 10.6% chance... so pretty much what you're suggesting here.

I'd quite like the odds to be a little higher though. Maybe somewhere around 20%-25%, or about 1 in 5 to 1 in 4 games. Same with Shelters, really, although their odds are naturally already a touch higher (35 in 236 is about a 14.8% chance or about 1 in 6.7).

Maybe what could be done is that you 'roll' for Colony/Platinum twice, if you have sufficiently many cards owned. I'm not going to work the overall odds this would give of getting a Colony game, but to give an idea, that would mean a 19% chance with one Prosperity card, a 36% chance with two, a 51% chance with three and a 64% chance with four. I might actually work out the overall odds tomorrow morning (if nobody else decides to do it anyway for fun), basically it's just a case of working out the odds of having X Prosperity cards in a game, then multiply by the above numbers (and work out the rest for 5-10 Prosperity cards). Pretty straight forward.

Actually, it is roughly a 10% chance a card from Prosperity shows up. I can't think right now got back from a 10 hour shift. But, if there is a 10% chance any given board has a Prosperity card, there is only a 10% chance that board will have Colonies, assuming just one card from Prosperity.

[Jack Rudd]

I agree with this. Adventures adds 30 kingdom cards which is a lot. I don't think we need a lot of games to be Colony games but maybe 1 out of every 10.

Well, there's 236 Kingdom Cards including Adventures, right, and 25 of those are Prosperity, which gives a 10.6% chance... so pretty much what you're suggesting here.

I'd quite like the odds to be a little higher though. Maybe somewhere around 20%-25%, or about 1 in 5 to 1 in 4 games. Same with Shelters, really, although their odds are naturally already a touch higher (35 in 236 is about a 14.8% chance or about 1 in 6.7).

Maybe what could be done is that you 'roll' for Colony/Platinum twice, if you have sufficiently many cards owned. I'm not going to work the overall odds this would give of getting a Colony game, but to give an idea, that would mean a 19% chance with one Prosperity card, a 36% chance with two, a 51% chance with three and a 64% chance with four. I might actually work out the overall odds tomorrow morning (if nobody else decides to do it anyway for fun), basically it's just a case of working out the odds of having X Prosperity cards in a game, then multiply by the above numbers (and work out the rest for 5-10 Prosperity cards). Pretty straight forward.

Actually, it is roughly a 10% chance a card from Prosperity shows up. I can't think right now got back from a 10 hour shift. But, if there is a 10% chance any given board has a Prosperity card, there is only a 10% chance that board will have Colonies, assuming just one card from Prosperity.

The probability that a board will have a specific card from Prosperity is about 10%. The chance that it will have some card from Prosperity is a lot higher.

[singletee]

I agree with this. Adventures adds 30 kingdom cards which is a lot. I don't think we need a lot of games to be Colony games but maybe 1 out of every 10.

Well, there's 236 Kingdom Cards including Adventures, right, and 25 of those are Prosperity, which gives a 10.6% chance... so pretty much what you're suggesting here.

I'd quite like the odds to be a little higher though. Maybe somewhere around 20%-25%, or about 1 in 5 to 1 in 4 games. Same with Shelters, really, although their odds are naturally already a touch higher (35 in 236 is about a 14.8% chance or about 1 in 6.7).

Maybe what could be done is that you 'roll' for Colony/Platinum twice, if you have sufficiently many cards owned. I'm not going to work the overall odds this would give of getting a Colony game, but to give an idea, that would mean a 19% chance with one Prosperity card, a 36% chance with two, a 51% chance with three and a 64% chance with four. I might actually work out the overall odds tomorrow morning (if nobody else decides to do it anyway for fun), basically it's just a case of working out the odds of having X Prosperity cards in a game, then multiply by the above numbers (and work out the rest for 5-10 Prosperity cards). Pretty straight forward.

Actually, it is roughly a 10% chance a card from Prosperity shows up. I can't think right now got back from a 10 hour shift. But, if there is a 10% chance any given board has a Prosperity card, there is only a 10% chance that board will have Colonies, assuming just one card from Prosperity.

The chance is substantially more than that. Just the first card has a ~10% chance to be Prosperity, then if it isn't, the second has a slightly better chance, and so on (with minor adjustment for Young Witch).

Handily, we don't need to worry about that, since the rule (decide whether Plats/Cols are used with probability based on the proportion of Prosperity cards in the kingdom) and (if the first Kingdom card picked is Prosperity, use Plats/Cols) are equivalent (assuming no Young Witch).

[Tables]

I agree with this. Adventures adds 30 kingdom cards which is a lot. I don't think we need a lot of games to be Colony games but maybe 1 out of every 10.

Well, there's 236 Kingdom Cards including Adventures, right, and 25 of those are Prosperity, which gives a 10.6% chance... so pretty much what you're suggesting here.

I'd quite like the odds to be a little higher though. Maybe somewhere around 20%-25%, or about 1 in 5 to 1 in 4 games. Same with Shelters, really, although their odds are naturally already a touch higher (35 in 236 is about a 14.8% chance or about 1 in 6.7).

Maybe what could be done is that you 'roll' for Colony/Platinum twice, if you have sufficiently many cards owned. I'm not going to work the overall odds this would give of getting a Colony game, but to give an idea, that would mean a 19% chance with one Prosperity card, a 36% chance with two, a 51% chance with three and a 64% chance with four. I might actually work out the overall odds tomorrow morning (if nobody else decides to do it anyway for fun), basically it's just a case of working out the odds of having X Prosperity cards in a game, then multiply by the above numbers (and work out the rest for 5-10 Prosperity cards). Pretty straight forward.

Actually, it is roughly a 10% chance a card from Prosperity shows up. I can't think right now got back from a 10 hour shift. But, if there is a 10% chance any given board has a Prosperity card, there is only a 10% chance that board will have Colonies, assuming just one card from Prosperity.

It's a 10% chance that a specific card turns up, but it's also a 10% chance that the FIRST card is from Prosperity, which is what determines Colonies.

[Haddock]

It's a 10% chance that a specific card turns up, but it's also a 10% chance that the FIRST card is from Prosperity, which is what determines Colonies.

This.  Which cards actually end up in the 10 kingdoms chosen is not at issue.  I was getting myself all confused trying to sum up all the possibilities in terms of how many Prosperity cards end up in the set and therefore the likelihood of Colonies.  But it's way easier than that, you only need to look at the first card.  So it is exactly 25/236.

Unrelatedly, the probability of at least one Prosperity card turning up is surprisingly high, at around 65%. (EDIT: Ignoring Young Witch)

[ancientcampus]

High-level play often involves building an engine long after you've started hitting $8 (kingdom permitting). For the majority of dominion players, though, they build an engine, start hitting $8, notice their opponent(s) have already started greening, and feel "drat, I better start too." Or, they start hitting $8 and buy provinces on principle before the engine is mature, and the engine never gets to full speed.

On boards with strong engines, Province games are paced that you really *can* get your engine up to "full speed", and often don't have to start greening before your engine is mature... but this is only true for high-level players most of the time. For most of the years I've played dominion, I've felt the same way: that Province games are too short for most engines.

Colony games without platinum - now that sounds like a lot of fun. Really good point that the importance of platinum makes colony games *more* treasure-reliant than Province games.

[michaeljb]

I'm having flashbacks to probability discussions from the initial Prosperity spoiler thread on BGG.