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[Donald X.]

No, that's why I said 'guess'. I don't know how Donald would feel about discussing previous versions of summon here so I won't, but suffice to say I have experimented with weaker versions that I already considered very strong.

And just for clarity: I'm not saying it's a badly designed card at all. First of all it's an event, so it will be available for everyone all game. Secondly it won't make all games look the same (a la rebuild or cultist) because it makes you play with the rest of the kingdom. And finally it's a promo, so nothing wrong with being a bit spicy.

All I'm saying is that I expect to buy this event almost whenever I can. And I expect that whenever I buy this event, I will be able to afford another the next turn.

Uh, it's probably fine if you talk about the previous versions. Man. We know the card. When Adventures was getting previewed and the playtesters were saying what they thought of each card, it felt to me like, aren't people missing some joy of discovery here? But really a lot of people wouldn't see the posts, and a lot of the people who did would see lots of posts in-between when the set came out and they got it. I guess you could spoiler that stuff. You are to some degree spoiling card analysis for the people who will get the card ASAP.

I agree that, if Summon turns out to be in some sense overpowered, it's not so bad. It's the kind of thing that probably won't be hated by very many people; it makes you play more with the cheaper cards but that's not making things boring.

Stef was the one who figured out that the original or maybe 2nd version was crazy. It was $1-$2, buy an action card (so, paying the cost of the card but being able to get more expensive stuff), play it next turn. The current version is trying to be fixed, so that you will in fact not always buy it. I don't know how it will end up for serious players, but I don't see typical players just passing up good $5's constantly.

[werothegreat]

I'm guessing FAQ and Secret History will go up when it's available on BGG?

[Donald X.]

I'm guessing FAQ and Secret History will go up when it's available on BGG?

I like to wait on the Secret History until the product is available. The FAQ might show up on the RGG site before then; I don't remember how that goes. I haven't actually written the FAQ so feel free to offer up your confusion.

[AdamH]

When Adventures was getting previewed and the playtesters were saying what they thought of each card, it felt to me like, aren't people missing some joy of discovery here? But really a lot of people wouldn't see the posts, and a lot of the people who did would see lots of posts in-between when the set came out and they got it. I guess you could spoiler that stuff. You are to some degree spoiling card analysis for the people who will get the card ASAP.

This is true to some extent, the main reason I did that is because a lot of people asked for it. Other games like Hearthstone have streamers giving their opinions on cards before they're released -- some people like to watch that stuff, others prefer to figure it out on their own.

If people take me more seriously because I had more reps with the card when it came out, well that's their mistake It's all just my opinion.

And I certainly don't think Summon is overpowered -- its effect is really good but it's certainly interactive so I can't see people disliking the card because it's "too good". I do think that people underestimate its potential, though. You can do some really really good stuff with it that's much better than it appears when you consider all of the benefits you get.

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Donald never mentioned this card. MUTINY

MUTINY! CONSPIRACY!! CHEM TRAILS! BLACK HELICOPTERS!! AAAAAAAARGH

lol

[AJD]

Kind of illustrates how much bigger the fifth coin is than the fourth coin, doesn't it?

Woodcutter's a $3 card. Adding one coin gets you Nomad Camp—i.e. $4 puts the $3 card in your hand next turn.

Adding one coin to a $4 card gets you Summon—instead of putting the $4 card in your hand next turn, the fifth coin will play that card for you for free.

$5 is a much bigger step over $4 than $4 is over $3.

[Donald X.]

This is true to some extent, the main reason I did that is because a lot of people asked for it. Other games like Hearthstone have streamers giving their opinions on cards before they're released -- some people like to watch that stuff, others prefer to figure it out on their own.

Obv. anyone watching the video knows what they're getting into. I'd hate to have to highlight a spoilered video.

[singletee]

I was thinking about what might be the most useless cards to Summon. Ruins are obvious, but other than that, probably Feast?

Edge cases in which you would actually want to Summon Feast:

You want an Ill-Gotten Gains, but you know your opponent has Trader or Watchtower in hand.
You want an Embassy, but you want to wait to get it until your opponent reshuffles (or you know they have Watchtower in hand).
You want to get an Inn and use its on-gain ability at the start of next turn.
You want to prevent your opponent from Smuggling your nice new Mountebank.

[AJD]

Edge cases in which you would actually want to Summon Feast:

You want an Ill-Gotten Gains, but you know your opponent has Trader or Watchtower in hand.
You want an Embassy, but you want to wait to get it until your opponent reshuffles (or you know they have Watchtower in hand).
You want to get an Inn and use its on-gain ability at the start of next turn.
You want to prevent your opponent from Smuggling your nice new Mountebank.

You want a Duchy, but you want to wait to get it until after you've reshuffled.

[Voltaire]

Well, back when Dark Ages was playtested, people also didn't commit to Rebuild, and somehow somebody who didn't commit to Rebuild won. That failed to show committing to Rebuild wasn't a dominant strategy.

I would like to think that Rebuild taught playtesters that "Always spam this card, no matter how insane that seems" is a playtesting step all cards should go through. I have faith.

[werothegreat]

Edge cases in which you would actually want to Summon Feast:

You want an Ill-Gotten Gains, but you know your opponent has Trader or Watchtower in hand.
You want an Embassy, but you want to wait to get it until your opponent reshuffles (or you know they have Watchtower in hand).
You want to get an Inn and use its on-gain ability at the start of next turn.
You want to prevent your opponent from Smuggling your nice new Mountebank.

You want a Duchy, but you want to wait to get it until after you've reshuffled.

You want to help activate your Conspirators.

[Asper]

I was thinking about what might be the most useless cards to Summon. Ruins are obvious, but other than that, probably Feast?

Edge cases in which you would actually want to Summon Feast:

You want an Ill-Gotten Gains, but you know your opponent has Trader or Watchtower in hand.
You want an Embassy, but you want to wait to get it until your opponent reshuffles (or you know they have Watchtower in hand).
You want to get an Inn and use its on-gain ability at the start of next turn.
You want to prevent your opponent from Smuggling your nice new Mountebank.

I was aware there were edge cases when i made that meme. Some more:

Contraband, Embargo, Swamp Hag, Haunted Woods, Market Square

[shmeur]

I was thinking about what might be the most useless cards to Summon. Ruins are obvious, but other than that, probably Feast?

Edge cases in which you would actually want to Summon Feast:

You want an Ill-Gotten Gains, but you know your opponent has Trader or Watchtower in hand.
You want an Embassy, but you want to wait to get it until your opponent reshuffles (or you know they have Watchtower in hand).
You want to get an Inn and use its on-gain ability at the start of next turn.
You want to prevent your opponent from Smuggling your nice new Mountebank.

I was aware there were edge cases when i made that meme. Some more:

Contraband, Embargo, Swamp Hag, Haunted Woods, Market Square

Knights/Peddler/Horn of Plenty.  Also I thought it didn't work with treasures

[Asper]

I was thinking about what might be the most useless cards to Summon. Ruins are obvious, but other than that, probably Feast?

Edge cases in which you would actually want to Summon Feast:

You want an Ill-Gotten Gains, but you know your opponent has Trader or Watchtower in hand.
You want an Embassy, but you want to wait to get it until your opponent reshuffles (or you know they have Watchtower in hand).
You want to get an Inn and use its on-gain ability at the start of next turn.
You want to prevent your opponent from Smuggling your nice new Mountebank.

I was aware there were edge cases when i made that meme. Some more:

Contraband, Embargo, Swamp Hag, Haunted Woods, Market Square

Knights/Peddler/Horn of Plenty.  Also I thought it didn't work with treasures

Contraband, Embargo, Swamp Hag and Haunted Woods all limit your options on buying cards. Using Summon and Feast means that you can avoid buying a card at all.

[GendoIkari]

Also, if you aren't going to reshuffle in the current cleanup, and there's not other weird stuff going on, there simply no reason not to summons a feast if there's a $5 you want to buy. Swag points FTTW.

[sudgy]

Or if you're trying to empty the feast pile but want to not have them in your deck and get $5s instead.

[-Stef-]

Obviously the most interesting strategic discussion about Summon is when you should or should not summon a Feast.

[JacquesTheBard]

I notice that there is no "Once per turn" clause, which might turn Summon into a bit of a megaturn enabler.
For example, Summoning multiple draw cards simultaneously would be excellent, as would cards with effects that self-synergize like the Bridge family.

Are there any Summon targets that will let a player re-purchase summon on a consistent basis? There are numerous cheap actions that can easily generate $5, but some (like Secret Chamber) aren't worth buying over and over again.

[singletee]

Obviously the most interesting strategic discussion about Summon is when you should or should not summon a Feast.

The Bike-Shed Effect in action.

[werothegreat]

Any idea when this might slide onto BGG for sale?

[Donald X.]

Any idea when this might slide onto BGG for sale?

I don't have a date. I think they've been printed. Probably they go by boat (it's not like we're in a rush to get it out), and that takes a while. I don't know how long but a while. I don't want to make a guess that won't be any more informed than that.

[LastFootnote]

Also, if you aren't going to reshuffle in the current cleanup, and there's not other weird stuff going on, there simply no reason not to summons a feast if there's a $5 you want to buy. Swag points FTTW.

Well it's not just that. If you know you're not going to reshuffle, you might Summon a Feast to deliberately put off choosing which ≤$5 card you gain until each other player has taken another turn.

Prior to this thread, I considered Summoning a Feast to be pointless, but I'm no longer sure it's even an edge case.

[XerxesPraelor]

It does run down the feast pile, which may be relevant to 3-pile endings.

Prior to this thread, I considered Summoning a Feast to be pointless, but I'm no longer sure it's even an edge case.

Yeah, the interaction is actually pretty good - with Summon on the board, Feast will probably be bought (technically only gained) quite a bit.

Can't wait to buy Summons.

[Asper]

It does run down the feast pile, which may be relevant to 3-pile endings.

Prior to this thread, I considered Summoning a Feast to be pointless, but I'm no longer sure it's even an edge case.

Yeah, the interaction is actually pretty good - with Summon on the board, Feast will probably be bought (technically only gained) quite a bit.

Can't wait to buy Summons.

If there are no better targets to summon. But i agree, waiting until your next turn to choose the < you get is (under certain conditions) simply better than buying it directly. Huh, didn't expect that.

[SirClemens]

My Copy of Adventures just arrived so I will share the card art with you: