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[Dingan]

Code: [Select]

Candlestick Maker, Chapel, Scrying Pool, Doctor, Village, Wishing Well, Alchemist, Scavenger, Counting House, Torturer
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150707/log.516d4577e4b082c74d7b716e.1436322392214.txt

So my opponent went straight up Chapel-BM here, while I tried to get fancy with Scrying Pools and CM for economy.  I lost by 1 point.  I think had I not gotten somewhat unlucky on turns 4 and 6 (drawing Chapel with my Potion, Coppers, and one other terminal instead of with Estates), I may have come out on top.  But whatever.

However, this game did make me reflect upon a more general question: In which kingdoms is there Scrying Pool, thinning, +buys, economy, and villages, but yet should not be a Scrying Pool game?  Even with weak versions of these components (Trade Route for thinning, terminal silvers for economy, Nobles for village, etc.), I pretty much will always go for Pools, no exceptions.  Is this wrong?  What types of boards, if any, are there all of these components yet Pool is bad?  Something like Chapel-Scavenger-BM?  Mountebank w/ bad thinning?  Double-Jack?  I'm not sure.  Maybe there are none.

[Eevee]

To pool.

[SCSN]

Obviously you go pool. You also want to play at least 4 Torturers per turn instead of zero.

[Dingan]

Obviously you go pool. You also want to play at least 4 Torturers per turn instead of zero.

I definitely thought of that, but I just didn't think there was enough time to set that up.  All of a sudden he was greening while I didn't have enough economy to buy Torturers + the Villages to play them + still buying a Pool every turn.  Plus, it's unlikely, but he could nullify 4 Torturers in 1 turn if he had a Chapel in hand.  So I just didn't quite see that.  But definitely if there was better, non-terminal, economy.

[JW]

I definitely thought of that, but I just didn't think there was enough time to set that up.  All of a sudden he was greening while I didn't have enough economy to buy Torturers + the Villages to play them + still buying a Pool every turn.

You over-trashed: after your turn 8 your deck had only 2 Candlestick Makers and a Scavenger for economy.

[Kirian]

I'm out of practice, but I wonder if Chapel/Potion is the right opening here.  Wishing Well, for instance, won't collide with Chapel and has a good chance of drawing the bonus card; Doctor can collide but gives a definite trash on the turn it's bought.  Either way, you buy Potion in the second shuffle, and don't worry about Pools until T6 or so, when you'll be much thinner.

A better player might well call this stupid though.... thoughts?

[AdamH]

I'll echo SCSN here, playing multiple Torturers in a turn would have totally wrecked your opponent. You're worried about not having the time to set it up, but the whole point of doing that is to give you more time to catch up to Chapel+BM.

As for how to build this, well it's really really tough to say. It depends a lot on your draws and what you're opponent is doing, how much you want to prioritize Scrying Pool for draw versus Village/Torturer. The best strategy is to build up quite a bit here, though, and in that case I'd prioritize draw and thinning so I'd probably open Potion/Chapel. Once I saw my opponent not go for the Pools and CSMs, I'd put more emphasis on Village/Torturer plays.

But even then it's a close call in the opening for sure.

[DG]

On turn 12 you buy a province when you need to build. Your opponent has a deck that will continue solidly, so it's dangerous to give it a big lead, but to get value from your 'engine' you need to build up to double province turns, heavy torturer attacks, or both.

[Dingan]

Ok so I think it's clear that in this specific instance, Pools were the right way to go, though I had not played it optimally.  Over-trashing, greening too early, not going for Torturers, etc.  But the reason I started this topic was to get the experts' opinions on the more general case:

In which kingdoms is there Scrying Pool, thinning, +buys, economy, and villages, but yet should not be a Scrying Pool game?

[DG]

All alchemy strategies can be slow because of the delay in buying the potion then buying the potion cost cards. If you want to put together something like king's court and bridge, for example, there could well be a faster way of doing it within the kingdom.

[RTT]

Ok so I think it's clear that in this specific instance, Pools were the right way to go, though I had not played it optimally.  Over-trashing, greening too early, not going for Torturers, etc.  But the reason I started this topic was to get the experts' opinions on the more general case:

In which kingdoms is there Scrying Pool, thinning, +buys, economy, and villages, but yet should not be a Scrying Pool game?

Rebuild maybe

The payload you get from playing a super reliable engine with the pool must be significantly higher than someone playing a less reliable engine without the pool.

[Seprix]

You totally want Scrying Pool. You almost always want it.

[markusin]

You totally want Scrying Pool. You almost always want it.

Yeah it takes a lot to make Scrying Pool not optimal. Rush boards without strong attacks or +buy/+gain may be such boards, only because the acquisition of Scrying Pools will be slow.

Even when not optimal, Scrying Pool will feel competitive, and you can't be messing around when trying to beat Scrying Pool without getting them yourself.

[Seprix]

You totally want Scrying Pool. You almost always want it.

Yeah it takes a lot to make Scrying Pool not optimal. Rush boards without strong attacks or +buy/+gain may be such boards, only because the acquisition of Scrying Pools will be slow.

Even when not optimal, Scrying Pool will feel competitive, and you can't be messing around when trying to beat Scrying Pool without getting them yourself.

Scrying Pool is something you still want in a game without +buy and strong attacks, and even without trashing. It just makes your deck more optimal, and your opponent's worse, especially if he doesn't challenge you on Pools. The only time you might not want Pools is when you're playing say, a fast 3-pile game with Stonemason/Death Cart/Vineyards and Rebuild.

Pool is so good, that you could price it at $ and it would still be fantastic.