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[2.71828.....]

I really like what Donald said about the log

I think it totally wants to be based on whether or not they are using the VP counter. With VP counter, show the whole log. Without it, show each player's most recent completed turn (edit: and the current turn-in-progress).

The VP counter is implicit in the log so there's no point to showing the whole log without the VP counter. And I bet there aren't many people who want the VP counter but don't like the log.

Basically, if you like the VP counter, you are going to like the log.

If you don't like VP counter, you won't like the log.

Just two different personalities and opinions.  Neither is wrong.  In my opinion, the only real issue appears when trying to standardize Dominion games for a tournament or something.  Do we play a more "pure" version of Dominion that doesn't include a log or VP counter?  Do we acknowledge that we are indeed playing online and have these other resources available to use and it makes gameplay easier and more enjoyable for {subset of people}?  That is really the only issue that I see.  In my opinion, when running a tournament online, that should be one of the issues that is always discussed in the rules.  For example, the Dominion League states "By default, we play with #vpon and with random kingdoms. You can change these settings on mutual consent."  If you play in the league, you abide by the rules.  Could a tournament be created that explicitly states you cannot use VP counter?  Sure.  It wouldn't be any worse or better than another tournament with VP counter, it would just be different.

[2.71828.....]

And to make the discussion relevant to logs, just replace "VP counter" with "game log" and I think everything still holds true

[SCSN]

And to make the discussion relevant to logs, just replace "VP counter" with "game log" and I think everything still holds true

Let's call this the VP/log duality.

[AdamH]

Uhh, my first post in this thread was to state a reason why someone (myself) would prefer point counter but not the whole game log. I do it for the viewers of my stream, and the whole game log doesn't help them since it's not on the screen most of the time.

I also said it's probably not a good enough reason to separate them, but I just don't think you should say there are no reasons. If it's really as simple as having another box right beside the VP counter box to check, then it would make me happier.

low-stakes

I disagree with the entire content of the rest of this post, but I'll give you a +1 for your pun here

[Voltaire]

I'm also for the full log. Nobody can stop me from documenting everything on paper anyway, so why waste anybodies time with hiding it? I already track my VP's that way in league games where my opponent turns off the counter. The only consequence is that the game takes longer.

Here's why I don't like this argument for a full log - it implicitly says "Nobody can stop me from cheating, so why not help me cheat?" Now, this is only if the players are playing with the understanding that they are playing Dominion as close to the original rules as possible online. If they're not, that's a-ok. But tracking VP in a game where players have agreed to turn the VP counter off feels a little dirty to me, personally. Now that said, I get that lots of people want to play with the point counter Dominion variant and if they want a full log too then a-ok.

I see the point here that tying the full log to the VP counter could satisfy almost everyone, and I'd support that.

[pubby]

It's probably worth mentioning that the new version doesn't support control-f.

[Awaclus]

It's probably worth mentioning that the new version doesn't support control-f.

#gokowasbetter

[Kirian]

Well-done steak, also known as "meat the restaurant can't legally serve any other way."

[pacovf]

Well-done steak, also known as "meat the restaurant can't legally serve any other way."

I would stop there if you don't want Adam to have a beef with you.

[AdamH]

Well-done steak, also known as "meat the restaurant can't legally serve any other way."

I would stop there if you don't want Adam to have a beef with you.

You know, it's pretty rare to find someone who can make all of these great puns.

[pacovf]

Well-done steak, also known as "meat the restaurant can't legally serve any other way."

I would stop there if you don't want Adam to have a beef with you.

You know, it's pretty rare to find someone who can make all of these great puns.

Your respect patronage is met with nothing but raw gratitude.

[Seprix]

Well-done steak, also known as "meat the restaurant can't legally serve any other way."

I would stop there if you don't want Adam to have a beef with you.

You know, it's pretty rare to find someone who can make all of these great puns.

You are all making a misteak here by steering towards puns.

[tailred]

Steak puns; a rare medium done well.

[sudgy]

At a restaurant I asked for my burger to be well done, they said it goes all the way up to "burnt to a cinder".  I got that, and it was not burnt at all, and just about how I like it.

[Witherweaver]

[Chris is me]

Here's why I don't like this argument for a full log - it implicitly says "Nobody can stop me from cheating, so why not help me cheat?"

It's not cheating, though. It's certainly not a rule in the physical copy of Dominion, and it's obviously not a rule online either. Just because it's not something you are (or I am) willing to do / feel like doing, doesn't mean it's cheating to do it. What's the fundamental difference between trying to remember something in your head and writing it down?

[Kirian]

Here's why I don't like this argument for a full log - it implicitly says "Nobody can stop me from cheating, so why not help me cheat?"

It's not cheating, though. It's certainly not a rule in the physical copy of Dominion, and it's obviously not a rule online either. Just because it's not something you are (or I am) willing to do / feel like doing, doesn't mean it's cheating to do it. What's the fundamental difference between trying to remember something in your head and writing it down?

Someone find the quote from Donald X about writing scores in blood on your stomach.

[Deadlock39]

Here's why I don't like this argument for a full log - it implicitly says "Nobody can stop me from cheating, so why not help me cheat?"

It's not cheating, though. It's certainly not a rule in the physical copy of Dominion, and it's obviously not a rule online either. Just because it's not something you are (or I am) willing to do / feel like doing, doesn't mean it's cheating to do it. What's the fundamental difference between trying to remember something in your head and writing it down?

I like VP tracking, I like the log, I don't mind using a computer to search it...  but it is because it is the version of Dominion I like to play online.

That said, (and I think this is basically the stance Donald took in the quote Kirian is referencing), anything game related that is not explicitly allowed by the rules, is implicitly not allowed.  Anything else is madness.  The rule book doesn't say I can't just gain the stack of Provinces because I want to.  I simply explains the (only!) ways that I am allowed to gain Provinces.

Some people like the state tracking aspects of the game more than others.  Some people don't even consider it part of the game. Unfortunately, in online play, it is literally impossible to prevent someone from tracking the game state, so the best that can be done for players who want to play that way is to make it harder, and well, if there is an alternate mode that makes it super easy, people who want all the information accessible will probably just play that one.

[Donald X.]

Someone find the quote from Donald X about writing scores in blood on your stomach.

I convinced that guy too. A rare day on the internet.

[Seprix]

Here's why I don't like this argument for a full log - it implicitly says "Nobody can stop me from cheating, so why not help me cheat?"

It's not cheating, though. It's certainly not a rule in the physical copy of Dominion, and it's obviously not a rule online either. Just because it's not something you are (or I am) willing to do / feel like doing, doesn't mean it's cheating to do it. What's the fundamental difference between trying to remember something in your head and writing it down?

Someone find the quote from Donald X about writing scores in blood on your stomach.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=876.msg13546#msg13546

Thank you, based google!

[Haddock]

Here's why I don't like this argument for a full log - it implicitly says "Nobody can stop me from cheating, so why not help me cheat?"

It's not cheating, though. It's certainly not a rule in the physical copy of Dominion, and it's obviously not a rule online either. Just because it's not something you are (or I am) willing to do / feel like doing, doesn't mean it's cheating to do it. What's the fundamental difference between trying to remember something in your head and writing it down?

Someone find the quote from Donald X about writing scores in blood on your stomach.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=876.msg13546#msg13546

Thank you, based google!

I think I must be punishing myself for something.  I read that entire thread, all however-many-pages of trolling.  Painful reading, seriously.

Not that I intend to play online at all (Hearthstone is already too much of an addiction), but for what it's worth I think Donald's suggestion is the clear winner.

[drsteelhammer]

If you want no log at all and no point counter, we can remove the numbers indicating how low a pile is removed aswell. Not sure about tracking you draw pile in the rule, but that could go away aswell then I guess.

That would make it obviously more random, but if that's what the majority wants...

[AdamH]

If you want no log at all and no point counter, we can remove the numbers indicating how low a pile is removed aswell. Not sure about tracking you draw pile in the rule, but that could go away aswell then I guess.

That would make it obviously more random, but if that's what the majority wants...

The game rules allow you to count your draw pile, opponents' draw piles, and supply piles (but you can't look at each of the cards in the Knights or Ruins piles). You can't count your discard or look through it unless a card tells you to do so (Phil Stone, Scavenger, Hermit)

EDIT: turns out you can't count your opponents' draw piles. Imagine that

[drsteelhammer]

If you want no log at all and no point counter, we can remove the numbers indicating how low a pile is removed aswell. Not sure about tracking you draw pile in the rule, but that could go away aswell then I guess.

That would make it obviously more random, but if that's what the majority wants...

The game rules allow you to count your draw pile, opponents' draw piles, and supply piles (but you can't look at each of the cards in the Knights or Ruins piles). You can't count your discard or look through it unless a card tells you to do so (Phil Stone, Scavenger, Hermit)

Yes- and Goko+MF do it for you. You are allowed to count the Provinces you bought- but they could do it for you too!

[markusin]

If you want no log at all and no point counter, we can remove the numbers indicating how low a pile is removed aswell. Not sure about tracking you draw pile in the rule, but that could go away aswell then I guess.

That would make it obviously more random, but if that's what the majority wants...

The game rules allow you to count your draw pile, opponents' draw piles, and supply piles (but you can't look at each of the cards in the Knights or Ruins piles). You can't count your discard or look through it unless a card tells you to do so (Phil Stone, Scavenger, Hermit)

Yes- and Goko+MF do it for you. You are allowed to count the Provinces you bought- but they could do it for you too!

But the physical components of the game do not have the obligation to aid you in counting what you've bought since the rules don't specify that obligation as part of the "contract". If the game game you pencil and paper for stuff like that or a slider or simply stated that you can use such tools acquired elsewhere, then Goko-MF would be obliged to give you a deck tracker as well.

Counting supply piles and draw decks with the aid of the physical stuff to count is in the rules, but picking up the discard pile to look through it is not. Neither is being allowed to keep track of deck contents with anything besides your mental capabilities.

Having a deck tracker is therefore a variant, though one that comes close to the variant we already have online. Having a full log available but not a deck tracker seems like an arbitrary  design choice to make it more difficult for one track their deck, though less difficult then it would be IRL because of the full log. What keeps people from tracking decks online with pencil and paper is their limited patience, really.