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[pacovf]

And the Heavens be blessed that Hydrad inherited the Innocent Child.

[Hydrad]

And the Heavens be blessed that Hydrad inherited the Innocent Child.

your welcome.

also really good job with the reads

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Vote: A Drowned Kernel

[Teproc]

Awaclus made a pretty ballsy vote on Seprix back when he had a wagon on him, so considering both wagons, and between ADK and Seprix, I definitely prefer vote: ADK.

I think you're giving too much weight to the Seprix wagon. It was very, very early on in the day, and I know we've had some day 1 quicklynches recently, but it was still unlikely to go all the way. I suppose it's worth some town cred for Seprix, but his interactions with Awaclus so perfectly fit what I'd expect from a scumpartner that I can't overlook it.

ADK is a good lynch as well, not my preferred but I'll join it if needed. His interactions with Awaclus are more subtle but that's to be expected since ADK is more experienced. It's just that when you lynch scum on day 1, I think the simplest answer tends to be the right one (and here the simplest answers are Seprix and pacovf).

People need to stop giving massive towncred for just doing work btw. People like pacovf will absolutely do that as scum, especially when their day 1 interactions are as damning as they are here. It's fine to give some towncred for it (it's a big reason why I prefer lynching Seprix to pacovf), but just like mail-mi lurking doesn't mean he's scum, pacovf (or me, or WW etc.) doing rereads doesn't mean they're town.

[pacovf]

Awaclus made a pretty ballsy vote on Seprix back when he had a wagon on him, so considering both wagons, and between ADK and Seprix, I definitely prefer vote: ADK.

I think you're giving too much weight to the Seprix wagon. It was very, very early on in the day, and I know we've had some day 1 quicklynches recently, but it was still unlikely to go all the way. I suppose it's worth some town cred for Seprix, but his interactions with Awaclus so perfectly fit what I'd expect from a scumpartner that I can't overlook it.

Well, I am just using Occam's razor. Seprix looks a bit worse than ADK from his interactions with Awaclus, but it becomes a toss up between the two when you consider WW's wagon*. So Awaclus's early vote on Seprix tips the scales towards ADK. I would still be happy with a Seprix lynch, though.

*Yes, I know that wagons on town are not as informative as wagons on scum, and that we aren't 100% sure that WW is town. That doesn't mean we should ignore it.

ADK is a good lynch as well, not my preferred but I'll join it if needed. His interactions with Awaclus are more subtle but that's to be expected since ADK is more experienced. It's just that when you lynch scum on day 1, I think the simplest answer tends to be the right one (and here the simplest answers are Seprix and pacovf).

Considering our playstyles, do you really think that ADK being more subtle here is actually so good an argument that you put him on an entirely different willing-to-lynch category than Seprix and I?

Honestly, after finishing the reread, ADK seems quite a bit scummier than I am, but then again, I am terribly biased.

People need to stop giving massive towncred for just doing work btw. People like pacovf will absolutely do that as scum, especially when their day 1 interactions are as damning as they are here. It's fine to give some towncred for it (it's a big reason why I prefer lynching Seprix to pacovf), but just like mail-mi lurking doesn't mean he's scum, pacovf (or me, or WW etc.) doing rereads doesn't mean they're town.

Can we ignore this perfectly good point you are raising just because it would serve me?

[A Drowned Kernel]

I apologize for not having time for this at the moment, please don't lynch me until I have a chance to properly defend myself.

[pacovf]

Sure, we can wait, don't worry.

In the meantime, Seprix, care to defend yourself or put your vote down somewhere?

[Teproc]

ADK is a good lynch as well, not my preferred but I'll join it if needed. His interactions with Awaclus are more subtle but that's to be expected since ADK is more experienced. It's just that when you lynch scum on day 1, I think the simplest answer tends to be the right one (and here the simplest answers are Seprix and pacovf).

Considering our playstyles, do you really think that ADK being more subtle here is actually so good an argument that you put him on an entirely different willing-to-lynch category than Seprix and I?

Honestly, after finishing the reread, ADK seems quite a bit scummier than I am, but then again, I am terribly biased.

Well, first of all you've never been scum, so even though you're a good town player, you might not be the best scum player ever (they can't all be) on your first try. More importantly though, the scum narrative for you is very different thatn ADK's.

For you, it's basically that you defended Awaclus very early on and felt like you had to make a choice between either defending him or bussing him, to avoid being in the classic scumpartner position of "he's a great lynch, but let's do someone, anyone, else". That's not a subtle position at all, but it doesn't need to be. This is exactly how I approached it the first time I had a scumpartner with a leading wagon on day 1 (Star Wars Mafia), so I think it's a very convincing scum narrative for you. Well, convincing to me at least, since I do think we are similar players.

For ADK, it's him deflecting away from Awaclus fairly consistently, but not doing it so in the over-the-top scummy way of Seprix. I think this is less scummy because it's just harder to distinguish from a town behavior.

Now that I think about it more, I guess I don't have a great answer to your question. I'm just less convinced about ADK being scum than I am about you and Seprix, and I'm not sure why there's a different degree there but there is. I realize that's not something you can do much about, but it is what it is.

[pacovf]

Well, first of all you've never been scum, so even though you're a good town player, you might not be the best scum player ever (they can't all be) on your first try. More importantly though, the scum narrative for you is very different thatn ADK's.

This has been bothering me for a while now, and I think I've managed to put my finger on why: it looks like you are choosing the scum!pacovf meta that best fits the current facts, and that's a reasoning shortcut.

Example: Let's assume for a moment that WW had never been scum here before. I reread WW, and think "what sort of scum narrative fits these facts?", and I say "when under pressure, WW always busses a partner so that either gets mass towncred". Well, that sounds reasonable enough, and it fits the facts perfectly! Let's lynch WW! Obviously, this is just a reductio ad absurdum for illustrative purposes.

My point is, if you choose my scum meta, I am obviously going to fit a scum narrative (compared to a town one) much better than ADK's fits one based on his preexisting scum meta, which you cannot choose.

Note that I am not saying that your assumption about my scum meta is a bad one. It's just that there's a host of equally likely ones that you could have chosen instead, and that I don't fit as well.

[chairs]

vote: seprix. Seprix pacovf scum team with pacman gambit on an adk mislynch into maybe a we mislynch before we trash seprix and he comes up roses no matter what.

[chairs]

Ww not we.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 2.2

Seprix (2): Teproc, chairs
pacovf (1): Witherweaver
A Drowned Kernel (2): pacovf, UmbrageOfSnow
chairs (1): A Drowned Kernel
skip wooznum (1): mail-mi

Not Voting (3): Seprix, Hydrad, skip wooznum

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends at Jul 4, 7 PM Forum Time.

[Seprix]

Sure, we can wait, don't worry.

In the meantime, Seprix, care to defend yourself or put your vote down somewhere?

It seems I read the WW/Awaclus interactions out of context, so I don't have the scum read on WW to go to. Mail-Mi and ADK are among the higher reads I have, but I don't want to look like I'm switching votes all the time, so I am reluctant to vote right now. This is also the reason I waited to vote for Awaclus, and I know it looks bad. People seriously grilled me as anti-town for constantly switching my vote in every other game, so I thought I'd try to not vote as often this game. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but it doesn't seem to be working. :/

[Seprix]

So to answer your question, I'm not really sure who to vote for, because honestly, I don't see the ADK case. I'm not as confident on the Mail-Mi case, but I guess that's still my top read thus far.

[Teproc]

Well, first of all you've never been scum, so even though you're a good town player, you might not be the best scum player ever (they can't all be) on your first try. More importantly though, the scum narrative for you is very different thatn ADK's.

This has been bothering me for a while now, and I think I've managed to put my finger on why: it looks like you are choosing the scum!pacovf meta that best fits the current facts, and that's a reasoning shortcut.

Example: Let's assume for a moment that WW had never been scum here before. I reread WW, and think "what sort of scum narrative fits these facts?", and I say "when under pressure, WW always busses a partner so that either gets mass towncred". Well, that sounds reasonable enough, and it fits the facts perfectly! Let's lynch WW! Obviously, this is just a reductio ad absurdum for illustrative purposes.

My point is, if you choose my scum meta, I am obviously going to fit a scum narrative (compared to a town one) much better than ADK's fits one based on his preexisting scum meta, which you cannot choose.

Note that I am not saying that your assumption about my scum meta is a bad one. It's just that there's a host of equally likely ones that you could have chosen instead, and that I don't fit as well.

You're making it sound like my case on you is all meta, which it's not. Meta is a small part of it.

The main case is : you defended Awaclus and deflected from his lynch. Awaclus was scum.

WHat I'm adding to that is that I'm speculating that your scum meta (which I have to speculate about since it doesn't exist) would be similar to mine, and that this option (defending and deflecting from my partner very openly) is one I have taken in the past as scum. This is admittedly not an insanely strong argument, but it makes sense to me. Wether or not it makes sense to others I don't know, but I didn't try to find scum when rereading you, it's simply that the scum narrative seemed (and still does) stronger with you than with most other players.

All that being said, me having a conversation with you about how I think you're scum is not the most productive thing in te world, so I'll let others share their views on that now.

[Witherweaver]

Teproc has been talking sense. Pacofv is coming off to me as rhetorical in these discussions.  Seprix is still a wild card.  Probably better to lynch him sooner than later.  Or cop him or something.   I haven't seen a big reason to lynch Skip.  I agree with Snow being town.

Okay here's a thought.  Mail-Mi was the alternate wagon to Awaclus.  Say they're both scum.  Does scum try to divert from both, or do they try to cut losses and bus for town cred?  Was there much of a push back towards Mail-Mi when Awaclus wagon was ramping up?  If so, that's and indication that Mail-Mi is town, and pushers are suspicious.  If not, then scum is a little more likely. And ,well, he probably gets some town points just because you don't often have leading wagons on two scum.

Chairs I'm back to towner on. 

[pacovf]

You're making it sound like my case on you is all meta, which it's not. Meta is a small part of it.

The main case is : you defended Awaclus and deflected from his lynch. Awaclus was scum.

Sorry if I was unclear, I was just talking about your preference for lynching me over lynching ADK, not about finding either of us scummy.

I was describing more-or-less scientifically the problem in that part of your reasoning (it's a common thing in data analysis). You might see where I am coming from if you imagine yourself in my position, as a town player with no defined scum meta.

All that being said, me having a conversation with you about how I think you're scum is not the most productive thing in te world, so I'll let others share their views on that now.

Fair enough.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Mail-Mi was the alternate wagon to Awaclus.  Say they're both scum.  Does scum try to divert from both, or do they try to cut losses and bus for town cred?  Was there much of a push back towards Mail-Mi when Awaclus wagon was ramping up?  If so, that's and indication that Mail-Mi is town, and pushers are suspicious.  If not, then scum is a little more likely. And ,well, he probably gets some town points just because you don't often have leading wagons on two scum.

It sounds like the conclusion you're coming to is that Mail-mi is town either way.  Do you agree with that?

I don't recall any real push back to Mail-mi other than by Pacovf.  ADK was lightly against the Awaclus lynch but was voting WW as I recall.

I do think Mail-mi and Pacovf seem like an unlikely scum team.  I'm unwilling to lynch Chairs today.  Is Mail-mi off the table for you, or close to it?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So to answer your question, I'm not really sure who to vote for, because honestly, I don't see the ADK case. I'm not as confident on the Mail-Mi case, but I guess that's still my top read thus far.

Why/how is Mail-mi your top read?  I know I pestered you about this on Day 1, but I still want to hear more about it.  Or maybe about why you're not feeling ADK or Pacovf.  Not sure which way your brain works, but could you go into a bit of detail about those three?

[Seprix]

I'm not too focused on the game. ADK and Pacovf could be announcing they're scum and I wouldn't know. College is hard

[skip wooznum]

.....ADK are among the higher reads I have....

...honestly, I don't see the ADK case...

these are back to back contradicting posts

[Witherweaver]

Mail-Mi was the alternate wagon to Awaclus.  Say they're both scum.  Does scum try to divert from both, or do they try to cut losses and bus for town cred?  Was there much of a push back towards Mail-Mi when Awaclus wagon was ramping up?  If so, that's and indication that Mail-Mi is town, and pushers are suspicious.  If not, then scum is a little more likely. And ,well, he probably gets some town points just because you don't often have leading wagons on two scum.

It sounds like the conclusion you're coming to is that Mail-mi is town either way.  Do you agree with that?

I don't recall any real push back to Mail-mi other than by Pacovf.  ADK was lightly against the Awaclus lynch but was voting WW as I recall.

I do think Mail-mi and Pacovf seem like an unlikely scum team.  I'm unwilling to lynch Chairs today.  Is Mail-mi off the table for you, or close to it?

That's probably because the "And" at the beginning of the last sentence isn't correct.  The last point wasn't conclusive, but it's a point to towards town.  The part before depends on what we can find with Day 1 interactions. 

[Witherweaver]

I.e., it could lead to town or scum conclusions, but I'm not sure which yet.

[skip wooznum]

Is it just me or does this ww/teproc fight seem a tad scum vs. scum?

The only way to know for sure is to lynch one of them.

Heh. This looks really, really bad today.


[/quote]bad because it now looks like they're both town and he's trying to get one lynched, or because it looks like he's slipping that he knows they're both town?

[skip wooznum]

I messed up there but I think everyone gets what was supposed to happen with the quotes