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Author Topic: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!  (Read 99681 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #250 on: June 18, 2015, 01:29:07 pm »
+3

Someday people will stop blurring the difference between an alpha and a beta.

Quote from: Jeff (Developer)
Quote from: Steve Beal
This should not be called Beta IMO. This is barely an Alpha release.
It is technically alpha because it's feature-incomplete, but the decision was to call it beta testing, because that's more understandable to everybody.

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It's real und that's sad! :( In the same sense, let's call the alphabet "letters" or "symbols" to make it more understandable to the people.

Clearly the alphabet should be called the betabet.

Or perhaps the betalph.
I think it should be betagamm.

"I'm really awfully glad I'm a Beta."
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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #251 on: June 18, 2015, 01:42:09 pm »
+2

It's real und that's sad! :( In the same sense, let's call the alphabet "letters" or "symbols" to make it more understandable to the people.

Clearly the alphabet should be called the betabet.

Or perhaps the betalph.
I think it should be betagamm.

Or an omegapsi.

...because they are doing things backwards, you see.
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rspeer

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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #252 on: June 18, 2015, 05:10:28 pm »
+5

This may be technically true, except the bolded part could be argued. On the other hand, I'm not going to touch this app again until my password is never stored in plain text anywhere.

That's really not too much to ask, and I'm not going to RE their entire app just to verify that they aren't storing or sending that password in plain text ever.

Okay, but I disagree. I think it's clearly acceptable for them to be doing the same thing that Chrome and Firefox do with passwords. The only thing I'd want is to make sure the password isn't saved in the log.

And it may seem like "not too much to ask", but they're clearly overwhelmed, and I would prefer that they focus on features that affect basic playability. I think the only reason this password thing became a big deal is because it reminds people of the XSS bug that Goko launched with, and it's fun to blame Goko things on MF.
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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #253 on: June 18, 2015, 10:49:59 pm »
0

Okay, but I disagree.

Of course, and I realize that not everybody shares my opinion. +1 for you :)
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #254 on: June 18, 2015, 11:16:47 pm »
0

This may be technically true, except the bolded part could be argued. On the other hand, I'm not going to touch this app again until my password is never stored in plain text anywhere.

That's really not too much to ask, and I'm not going to RE their entire app just to verify that they aren't storing or sending that password in plain text ever.

Okay, but I disagree. I think it's clearly acceptable for them to be doing the same thing that Chrome and Firefox do with passwords. The only thing I'd want is to make sure the password isn't saved in the log.

And it may seem like "not too much to ask", but they're clearly overwhelmed, and I would prefer that they focus on features that affect basic playability. I think the only reason this password thing became a big deal is because it reminds people of the XSS bug that Goko launched with, and it's fun to blame Goko things on MF.

for what it's worth I don't believe that Chrome is saving passwords in plain text.
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Seprix

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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #255 on: June 18, 2015, 11:37:39 pm »
+5

Okay, but I disagree.

Of course, and I realize that not everybody shares my opinion. +1 for you :)

Man, if disagreeing with Adam is all it takes to get upvotes..

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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #256 on: June 19, 2015, 12:01:53 am »
0

for what it's worth I don't believe that Chrome is saving passwords in plain text.

Go into "Settings". Click "Show advanced settings...". Click "Manage passwords". Mouse over the dots of one of your passwords and click "Show".

Chrome needs the plain text version of your password so it can submit it to a website. It can't separately negotiate with each website a way to store a hash that it will accept.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #257 on: June 19, 2015, 12:20:12 am »
+3

for what it's worth I don't believe that Chrome is saving passwords in plain text.

Go into "Settings". Click "Show advanced settings...". Click "Manage passwords". Mouse over the dots of one of your passwords and click "Show".

Chrome needs the plain text version of your password so it can submit it to a website. It can't separately negotiate with each website a way to store a hash that it will accept.
Oh sure. It can decrypt them and show them to you, but they don't exist on your hard drive unencrypted. That may or may not be a trivial difference depending on the OS level file permissions.

Let's say you and I share a computer. I log on to my user account and use Chrome and allow it to store passwords. It encrypts them and stores them in my user space with appropriate permissions. You can't get to the file where my passwords are stored, and even if you could you can't decrypt them without my user credentials.

Now consider Doninion writing usernames and passwords to a log in C:\program files (or the equivalent). If every user who uses this app is required to have permissions to that folder then every user will be able to see that log. So you or I could look in the logs and see the username and password of the other.

See the difference?

I mean, this is much less problematic (at least an order of magnitude so) than sending passwords in plain text, but it's still Not Good for certain use cases.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2015, 12:29:14 am by Cave-o-sapien »
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Kirian

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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #258 on: June 19, 2015, 08:39:59 am »
+4

for what it's worth I don't believe that Chrome is saving passwords in plain text.

Go into "Settings". Click "Show advanced settings...". Click "Manage passwords". Mouse over the dots of one of your passwords and click "Show".

Chrome needs the plain text version of your password so it can submit it to a website. It can't separately negotiate with each website a way to store a hash that it will accept.
Oh sure. It can decrypt them and show them to you, but they don't exist on your hard drive unencrypted. That may or may not be a trivial difference depending on the OS level file permissions.

Let's say you and I share a computer. I log on to my user account and use Chrome and allow it to store passwords. It encrypts them and stores them in my user space with appropriate permissions. You can't get to the file where my passwords are stored, and even if you could you can't decrypt them without my user credentials.

Now consider Doninion writing usernames and passwords to a log in C:\program files (or the equivalent). If every user who uses this app is required to have permissions to that folder then every user will be able to see that log. So you or I could look in the logs and see the username and password of the other.

See the difference?

I mean, this is much less problematic (at least an order of magnitude so) than sending passwords in plain text, but it's still Not Good for certain use cases.

If you are physically sharing a computer with someone whom you don't trust with your passwords, then either (1) you're playing at work, stop slacking off, slacker, or (2) you have incredibly serious trust issues with your spouse, get counseling, or (3) tell your roommate to get their own damn computer, or (4) get your kid their own computer, they're old enough and smart enough to figure out how to get to your porn stash and not just your passwords.

Maybe I'm unimaginative but I can't think of other use cases.
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Watno

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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #259 on: June 19, 2015, 09:56:23 am »
+1

Why does anyone let browsers save their passwords? Aren't cookies a much better way to preserve logins?
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DStu

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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #260 on: June 19, 2015, 10:15:54 am »
+3

Maybe it's really not that bad in this case (I don't know), but I'm a bit annoyed and bored by people who are not in the security business defending unnecessary deviations from security standards because they can't imagine how that can be exploited.

Krypto/Security is hard and fails in sophisticated ways, and I tend not to be reassured by random (sorry Kirian) people on the internet that can't instantly construct a generic attack out of this.



That said, as in the browser case, the app must in some sense have the "plaintext" password on the hdd in any case, at least I (in my function as random people on the internet) don't see how it can authenticate.  It can store the password encrypted, but then it must save the key.  Somehow it must know what to send to the server to authenticate yourself.  Interested in seeing how you can get around this.
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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #261 on: June 19, 2015, 10:30:24 am »
0

Why does anyone let browsers save their passwords? Aren't cookies a much better way to preserve logins?
Cookies are still stored by the browser as plaintext. The difference is that usually they hold a session id or some other value that isn't username+password. Anyone who has this value can login as you, so they're not much more secure.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #262 on: June 19, 2015, 11:25:42 am »
0

for what it's worth I don't believe that Chrome is saving passwords in plain text.

Go into "Settings". Click "Show advanced settings...". Click "Manage passwords". Mouse over the dots of one of your passwords and click "Show".

Chrome needs the plain text version of your password so it can submit it to a website. It can't separately negotiate with each website a way to store a hash that it will accept.
Oh sure. It can decrypt them and show them to you, but they don't exist on your hard drive unencrypted. That may or may not be a trivial difference depending on the OS level file permissions.

Let's say you and I share a computer. I log on to my user account and use Chrome and allow it to store passwords. It encrypts them and stores them in my user space with appropriate permissions. You can't get to the file where my passwords are stored, and even if you could you can't decrypt them without my user credentials.

Now consider Doninion writing usernames and passwords to a log in C:\program files (or the equivalent). If every user who uses this app is required to have permissions to that folder then every user will be able to see that log. So you or I could look in the logs and see the username and password of the other.

See the difference?

I mean, this is much less problematic (at least an order of magnitude so) than sending passwords in plain text, but it's still Not Good for certain use cases.

If you are physically sharing a computer with someone whom you don't trust with your passwords, then either (1) you're playing at work, stop slacking off, slacker, or (2) you have incredibly serious trust issues with your spouse, get counseling, or (3) tell your roommate to get their own damn computer, or (4) get your kid their own computer, they're old enough and smart enough to figure out how to get to your porn stash and not just your passwords.

Maybe I'm unimaginative but I can't think of other use cases.

There's the rather common case of a notebook/laptop/surface that goes between work and home, corporate and personal use. The laptop may or may not be a corporate asset; it might be owned by the individual but brought to work and allowed to join the corporate network in some way. If it's a corporate asset it may be okay to have Dominion installed on it depending on policies.

In such a case there's a big difference between a text file on disk that can be grepped by anyone with adequate permissions and an encrypted password store.

I mean, as I said earlier, this is a much, much less serious problem than transmitting passwords in the clear and/or storing them server side in plaintext, and no one should be using credentials for Dominion that they use anywhere important, but it's not ideal.
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Davio

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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #263 on: June 19, 2015, 01:32:23 pm »
+1

Is this a place to rant about the beta?

I've only tried the Windows version and have several issues with it:
- It's sluggish, even on my pretty good laptop
- No lobby? They somehow made finding an opponent worse
- Weird deck count bug (with Library), doesn't show the right amount of cards left in your deck

More to follow. :)
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Seprix

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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #264 on: June 19, 2015, 01:37:53 pm »
+3

The title of this thread still stands. We're still waiting for the Beta.
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Chris is me

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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #265 on: June 19, 2015, 03:06:59 pm »
+6

Honestly, the last update has worked pretty well for me. Playing at ultra hi res (2880) looks just stunning, animations are much better, and random input lag seems to be gone. Haven't had an issue with card text either. I'm beginning to find confidence that they'll squish all the bugs within a month and start working on features we need like the sidebar. Game works fine on my 1280 monitor too. I did get a cards left in deck bug once, but it was apparent from the very beginning of the game so it's not a game breaker for me (yet). Gotta fix that for next update though.

I just wish it weren't marketed as an "almost ready" version when it clearly wasn't, and the price hike should have happened when the game was feature complete and not before.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2015, 03:09:18 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #266 on: June 21, 2015, 12:38:58 pm »
0

I'm sure they probably have seen this, but in the first game I played with the app, 4-5 cards were not readable. IE I saw the title and picture, but when I clicked on the card, the text displayed to the left of the card and on top of itself rendering it illegible.

This is such a rudimentary bug that I trust they'll fix it soon, but surprised to see it in a Beta edition.
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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #267 on: June 21, 2015, 12:41:40 pm »
0

I'm sure they probably have seen this, but in the first game I played with the app, 4-5 cards were not readable. IE I saw the title and picture, but when I clicked on the card, the text displayed to the left of the card and on top of itself rendering it illegible.

This is such a rudimentary bug that I trust they'll fix it soon, but surprised to see it in a Beta edition.

Try changing resolution. In some specific resolution I have never seen this error.
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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #268 on: June 21, 2015, 02:37:03 pm »
0

More specifically, that bug seems to happen when the ratio of your chosen resolution doesn't match the ratio of your monitor.
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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #269 on: June 21, 2015, 06:38:59 pm »
+4

More specifically, that bug seems to happen when the ratio of your chosen resolution doesn't match the ratio of your monitor.

Seems to me that requiring the user to select their resolution when the app starts is insanity.
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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #270 on: June 21, 2015, 10:17:05 pm »
0

More specifically, that bug seems to happen when the ratio of your chosen resolution doesn't match the ratio of your monitor.

Seems to me that requiring the user to select their resolution when the app starts is insanity.

It's a default part of the Unity launcher. The real question is, will the default Unity launcher continue to exist as part of the software?
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Seprix

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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #271 on: June 22, 2015, 01:18:23 am »
0



All I can say is I'm glad I don't work at MF. :/
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 01:20:02 am by Seprix »
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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #272 on: June 22, 2015, 01:34:16 am »
0

Have the sparkly graphics been complained about adequately here or on the MF forums?

Because man, they're awful. The visual cue that something has changed shouldn't obscure what has actually changed.

I hate to keep comparing this to Isotropic, but a few lines of a text log >>> sparkly graphics for conveying information quickly and accurately.
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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #273 on: June 22, 2015, 10:22:40 am »
+2

Have the sparkly graphics been complained about adequately here or on the MF forums?

Because man, they're awful. The visual cue that something has changed shouldn't obscure what has actually changed.

I hate to keep comparing this to Isotropic, but a few lines of a text log >>> sparkly graphics for conveying information quickly and accurately.

They have been complained about since the start of the closed beta. (and they have improved since then, but are still annoying)  I am pretty sure they know it needs to be changed.
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Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
« Reply #274 on: June 22, 2015, 10:24:35 am »
+1



All I can say is I'm glad I don't work at MF. :/

Well, it sucks to hear things like that, but the guy isn't saying anything untruthful (other than the suggestion that they close down, which is a bit harsh).  Dominion Online has its advantages over isotropic, but isotropic did indeed work correctly except in rare instances when it went down.  Asking for more money now probably seems ridiculous to some.
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