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[Kirian]

For pricing, I'm going to offer Ascension as a comparison.

It's a bad comparison for a number of gameplay reasons, including complexity per expansion (higher for Dominion) and apparent content per expansion (lower for Dominion).  But the fact that it's a bad comparison doesn't matter for the sorts of people MF is (presumably and apparently) trying to cater to--casual players.

The online-conversion comparison is pretty good though, if we ignore gameplay.  Currently, Dominion is available only on Win/OSX/Linux, and Ascension is only available on iOS/Android; both allow for cross-platform play.  The Ascension implementation is a bit more polished than current Goko v1 without Salvager.  More extensive comparisons are difficult, but I think that's a good summary.

Like Dominion, the Ascension base game is available for free.

Ascension has six expansions which cost $2 (one early small expansion), $3 (most of them) and $4 (one large expansion), and four promos (multiple cards each) for $1 each.

Dominion has eight expansions which cost--well, I can't see the cost since I've already purchased them, but I'm assuming from the $90 "total" cost that they're $6 (small), $12 (standard), and $18 (DA and likely Adventures), with six promos (one card) for $2 each.

Even ignoring the fact that I have to do math to convert dollars to ducats to expansions, as a casual player, there's not even a choice there.

$6 for an expansion of 13 cards (Alchemy) is trying to compete with $2 for an expansion of 30 cards (RotF).  DA at $18 has 35 cards, and is competing with Ascension's RoV at $4 for 45 cards.

"But," you say, "any given group of 5 Dominion cards has more complexity than 25 Ascension cards!"  Very good, you've identified yourself as a non-casual player, and you are not the main market.

LF hit it on the head:  Making Fun's new prices are divorced from reality.

Now... this isn't really my problem, on some level.  But if MF wants to succeed, increasing prices is not the place to start.

[GendoIkari]

Does it suck to pay $90 instead of $45? Well, yes. But that's how the market works.

Pretty sure that's not how the market works, because that would imply that there are people actually paying those 90$. Instead of, you know, spending that same amount of money on a dozen or more games on Steam, or playing whatever other currently popular F2P card game.

Well, actually you're wrong. That is how the market works. People can set whatever price they please.

I can attempt to sell a regular Bic pen on eBay for 1000$. That's not an example of the market working.

I don't have anything against MF charging however much they please for whatever they want. But Dominion online doesn't exist in a vacuum. Ignoring the market is going to hurt them.

If, despite what everything seems to point towards, they have studied the (purposefully obscure) market and assessed that increasing the expansions prices is the move that is going to increase their revenues the most, then all the more power to them! But somehow I doubt it.

This makes me realize something. One thing that makes Dominion Online different than either real-life Dominion or many other computer games out there is that the more people who buy it; the better it gets for everyone who has it. If Dominion Online might be worth $90 to me, but that is only true if is is also worth $90 to lots of other people. The less people who buy it, the worse the entire experience is. This is true both because 1) there would be more people and a higher variety of people to play against, and 2) because more people means that they are more successful meaning that they have more resources to improve and polish and maintain the system.

What this means is that by charging more, and thus presumably lowering the number of people who sign up, they are making it worth less than it would be otherwise. In other words, if they charged only $10 for it then it might be so good that it is worth $90. But if they charge $90 then it might not be as good and only feel like it's worth $10. So the trick is to find that balance of course. Maybe $90 is the balance, who knows. But it's at least worth considering that the higher the price, the worse the product (even independent of price considerations).

[Cave-o-sapien]

It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline.

Good news! This amazing game, that so many people have paid $45 for a physical copy of, that won so many awards around the world and spawned so many rip-offs, is available online for the low low price of $0. It's completely free. And if you don't believe me just go on now and play it. For sure it's not going to get cheaper than free (insert joke about how they'd have to pay you to play the beta).

It's popular to think that whatever you want should just be yours. It's popular to think that someone else's 10 years of work is worth exactly as much as their zero years of work. A board game with 5 expansions is worth exactly as much as a board game with 10 expansions; the expansions, they're something you're owed, not something you pay for. I hope your time hasn't been spent as worthlessly as mine has! I made all these expansions, as if they were worth buying, as if they weren't just hurting an existing product by making it more expensive to have everything.

I have given this speech before! The game is free; if you want to complain about price, there is only the price of individual expansions to complain about, and complaining about the total is like saying an author wrote too many books, a band put out too many albums.

You're missing the point. I'm not complaining about having to pay for Dominion. Nor am I complaining about having to pay per expansion. I'm just saying the pricing is more than I'm willing to pay given what the product offers.

I think that's a completely fair stance for a prospective customer to have and it seems odd for you to belittle it.

[blueblimp]

For pricing, I'm going to offer Ascension as a comparison.

This is a nice place to start, but I think there is a huge difference between Ascension and Dominion that has nothing (directly) to do with gameplay. Dominion is way more popular. Ascension, although a physical card game originally, is in my mind notable mostly for having had a really good iOS app back when there were a lot fewer high-quality iOS board game apps. Although this is just my perception, the numbers back it up: on BGG, Dominion has 43k ratings, while Ascension has just 7k, almost an order of magnitude less.

For that reason, I don't think Dominion really needs to compete with the likes of Ascension on price. It can compete on having a stronger brand.

[Accatitippi]

For pricing, I'm going to offer Ascension as a comparison.

This is a nice place to start, but I think there is a huge difference between Ascension and Dominion that has nothing (directly) to do with gameplay. Dominion is way more popular. Ascension, although a physical card game originally, is in my mind notable mostly for having had a really good iOS app back when there were a lot fewer high-quality iOS board game apps. Although this is just my perception, the numbers back it up: on BGG, Dominion has 43k ratings, while Ascension has just 7k, almost an order of magnitude less.

For that reason, I don't think Dominion really needs to compete with the likes of Ascension on price. It can compete on having a stronger brand.

But the stronger brand doesn't work on the target audience, which seems to be very casual. (or casual enough as to not strongly prefer playing Dominion over Ascension)

[Donald X.]

It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline.

Good news! This amazing game, that so many people have paid $45 for a physical copy of, that won so many awards around the world and spawned so many rip-offs, is available online for the low low price of $0. It's completely free. And if you don't believe me just go on now and play it. For sure it's not going to get cheaper than free (insert joke about how they'd have to pay you to play the beta).

It's popular to think that whatever you want should just be yours. It's popular to think that someone else's 10 years of work is worth exactly as much as their zero years of work. A board game with 5 expansions is worth exactly as much as a board game with 10 expansions; the expansions, they're something you're owed, not something you pay for. I hope your time hasn't been spent as worthlessly as mine has! I made all these expansions, as if they were worth buying, as if they weren't just hurting an existing product by making it more expensive to have everything.

I have given this speech before! The game is free; if you want to complain about price, there is only the price of individual expansions to complain about, and complaining about the total is like saying an author wrote too many books, a band put out too many albums.

You're missing the point. I'm not complaining about having to pay for Dominion. Nor am I complaining about having to pay per expansion. I'm just saying the pricing is more than I'm willing to pay given what the product offers.

I think that's a completely fair stance for a prospective customer to have and it seems odd for you to belittle it.

It's totally reasonable for you to say that the price for whatever it is you want is more than what you want to pay for it. But that's not what you said. I replied to what you actually said, not to what you are now saying you said.

You said, "It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline."

Dominion is free, not $90. Dominion plus all the expansions has a cost that depends on how many expansions there are; the total is not a meaningful number. If there were ten times as many expansions it would be ten times as much. If there were no expansions at all, it would be $0.

If you would like to communicate "I'm just saying the pricing is more than I'm willing to pay given what the product offers" then I recommend using those words, rather than "It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline."

[thespaceinvader]

Well, nah. That is how the market works. People can set whatever price they please. Whether people will buy it or not though is the issue. Well, most of us hardcore players have the sets already, and they're not going to milk more money out of us. Then again, where else can you play Dominion online? Nowhere, they have a monopoly of sorts. Of sorts. What other game could you buy with $90?

I don't know about you, but I can and have bought Carcassonne, Galaxy Trucker, and Suburbia's excellent apps, and could add a number of others including Ticket to Ride if I felt like it, and could still afford a decent meal out at a restaurant with my $90.  And I'm on a small-screen Droid, so I get the short end of the stick when it comes to boardgame apps; iThingies are much better supported.  This is the commonest model for online boardgame pricing - $5 for an app, maybe $1 or $2 for an expansion as an in-app purchase.

I'm also a premium member of Boardgame Arena and Boite a Jeux, but those are both free to play if you don't care about the premium features.  The total cost of thosetwo plus all the apps noted above, per annum, is STILL less than $90 (but the BGA and BAJ prices are annual subscriptions, of course).  And they get me access to tens if not hundreds of games including some really big name, high-end, high-quality ones.  So indeed, membership of a big site with multiple game, which is free for basic membership and you can buy premium membership is probably actually the most common model, given the number of games on BAJ, BGA, and BSW among others.

And perhaps more to the point, I could get one, maybe two high-quality real-life games for $90.  Or two-ish hard-copy dominion expansions.

On another note, I appreciate that the base set is free (though, I still won't play this version even given that it's free; it's too slow, too buggy, and the animations annoy me too much).  But it seems evident from this thread, that people don't take the freeness of the base set into account when considering the price, either because people don't think the base set alone is worth playing much (and I can see that point), or because people want the 'whole game' and don't consider just the base set to be that, or because people expect to pay *something* so they don't consider the free part at all.  I don't know.  So, it seems clear that the dominant idea of what the game costs, isn't $0.  Given that, I can't help but wonder whether a different pricing model might deliver better returns.

[Polk5440]

Well, nah. That is how the market works. People can set whatever price they please. Whether people will buy it or not though is the issue. Well, most of us hardcore players have the sets already, and they're not going to milk more money out of us. Then again, where else can you play Dominion online? Nowhere, they have a monopoly of sorts. Of sorts. What other game could you buy with $90?

I don't know about you, but I can and have bought Carcassonne, Galaxy Trucker, and Suburbia's excellent apps, and could add a number of others including Ticket to Ride if I felt like it, and could still afford a decent meal out at a restaurant with my $90. 

... and ALL of their expansions. Ticket to Ride (Steam) and Carcassonne (iOS) are $15 each right now for everything (and they allow offline play...).

[Kirian]

For pricing, I'm going to offer Ascension as a comparison.

This is a nice place to start, but I think there is a huge difference between Ascension and Dominion that has nothing (directly) to do with gameplay. Dominion is way more popular. Ascension, although a physical card game originally, is in my mind notable mostly for having had a really good iOS app back when there were a lot fewer high-quality iOS board game apps. Although this is just my perception, the numbers back it up: on BGG, Dominion has 43k ratings, while Ascension has just 7k, almost an order of magnitude less.

For that reason, I don't think Dominion really needs to compete with the likes of Ascension on price. It can compete on having a stronger brand.

You have the wrong target audience, as noted by someone else.  Ascension has over 100k downloads on Android alone.  Safe to assume at least 300k between Android and iOS... though it's possible it could be as high as a million.  But let's stick with the conservative estimate.  Let's guess that 10% have bought at least one expansion... that's 30k.

Has Dominion Online actually achieved 30k total players?  Much less paying customers?

[Burning Skull]

I don't think that increased price is a problem.
But increased price plus decreased product quality (even if it is promised to be temporary) just doesn't make any sense.

[pacovf]

For pricing, I'm going to offer Ascension as a comparison.

This is a nice place to start, but I think there is a huge difference between Ascension and Dominion that has nothing (directly) to do with gameplay. Dominion is way more popular. Ascension, although a physical card game originally, is in my mind notable mostly for having had a really good iOS app back when there were a lot fewer high-quality iOS board game apps. Although this is just my perception, the numbers back it up: on BGG, Dominion has 43k ratings, while Ascension has just 7k, almost an order of magnitude less.

For that reason, I don't think Dominion really needs to compete with the likes of Ascension on price. It can compete on having a stronger brand.

You have the wrong target audience, as noted by someone else.  Ascension has over 100k downloads on Android alone.  Safe to assume at least 300k between Android and iOS... though it's possible it could be as high as a million.  But let's stick with the conservative estimate.  Let's guess that 10% have bought at least one expansion... that's 30k.

Has Dominion Online actually achieved 30k total players?  Much less paying customers?

From what I remember from reading about the F2P model, the number of paying players is usually more like 1% for game apps. On the other hand, Dominion Online can't really be compared with game apps, which usually get a lot more exposure (and downloads) than computer games.

What I am trying to say is, the comparison to Ascension has its limits.

[zporiri]

Does anyone else have the problem of not being able to click anything on the beta? The main screen comes up and I can't click anything

[Cave-o-sapien]

It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline.

Good news! This amazing game, that so many people have paid $45 for a physical copy of, that won so many awards around the world and spawned so many rip-offs, is available online for the low low price of $0. It's completely free. And if you don't believe me just go on now and play it. For sure it's not going to get cheaper than free (insert joke about how they'd have to pay you to play the beta).

It's popular to think that whatever you want should just be yours. It's popular to think that someone else's 10 years of work is worth exactly as much as their zero years of work. A board game with 5 expansions is worth exactly as much as a board game with 10 expansions; the expansions, they're something you're owed, not something you pay for. I hope your time hasn't been spent as worthlessly as mine has! I made all these expansions, as if they were worth buying, as if they weren't just hurting an existing product by making it more expensive to have everything.

I have given this speech before! The game is free; if you want to complain about price, there is only the price of individual expansions to complain about, and complaining about the total is like saying an author wrote too many books, a band put out too many albums.

You're missing the point. I'm not complaining about having to pay for Dominion. Nor am I complaining about having to pay per expansion. I'm just saying the pricing is more than I'm willing to pay given what the product offers.

I think that's a completely fair stance for a prospective customer to have and it seems odd for you to belittle it.

It's totally reasonable for you to say that the price for whatever it is you want is more than what you want to pay for it. But that's not what you said. I replied to what you actually said, not to what you are now saying you said.

You said, "It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline."

Dominion is free, not $90. Dominion plus all the expansions has a cost that depends on how many expansions there are; the total is not a meaningful number. If there were ten times as many expansions it would be ten times as much. If there were no expansions at all, it would be $0.

If you would like to communicate "I'm just saying the pricing is more than I'm willing to pay given what the product offers" then I recommend using those words, rather than "It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline."

Ok, let me try again.

It seems ridiculous to me that it costs $90 if I want the ability to play with all current Dominion cards (except Adventures), especially when I can't play it offline on a device.

This seems out of line with what I am used to paying for other board game apps. It is quite unlikely I will spend any money on this app, despite being a big fan of Dominion and owning every set on paper.

I would very likely pay some non-zero amount to be able to play the base set on an offline device; I would then very likely pay some amount for each expansion provided the app was good.

[Darth Vader]

Why buy Dominion packs for $90 when you can watch me for $90 instead?

https://play.google.com/store/movies/details/Star_Wars_The_Digital_Movie_Collection?id=sxvuhqcICJg&hl=en

[werothegreat]

Why buy Dominion packs for $90 when you can watch me for $90 instead?

https://play.google.com/store/movies/details/Star_Wars_The_Digital_Movie_Collection?id=sxvuhqcICJg&hl=en

Man, did you have to include the home movies of your childhood?  That weird best friend you had as a kid annoys the piss out of pretty much everyone.

[Darth Vader]

Man, did you have to include the home movies of your childhood?  That weird best friend you had as a kid annoys the piss out of pretty much everyone.

Why do you think I left Tatooine?

[DavidTheDavid]

Fingers crossed that we get a release out today that will resolve the server issues. I haven't seen the full release notes to know what else may be included, but keep an eye on the MF forum. There's always the chance that some oddball problem will popup when testing the new client, but again, fingers crossed.

[Seprix]

Fingers crossed that we get a release out today that will resolve the server issues. I haven't seen the full release notes to know what else may be included, but keep an eye on the MF forum. There's always the chance that some oddball problem will popup when testing the new client, but again, fingers crossed.

Here's hoping.

[Witherweaver]

Man, did you have to include the home movies of your childhood?  That weird best friend you had as a kid annoys the piss out of pretty much everyone.

Why do you think I left Tatooine?

Your signature is more impressive than Sudgy's.

[Awaclus]

Man, did you have to include the home movies of your childhood?  That weird best friend you had as a kid annoys the piss out of pretty much everyone.

Why do you think I left Tatooine?

Your signature is more impressive than Sudgy's.

Sudgy's is too short. Otherwise it would be pretty impressive.

[sudgy]

Man, did you have to include the home movies of your childhood?  That weird best friend you had as a kid annoys the p*** out of pretty much everyone.

Why do you think I left Tatooine?

Your signature is more impressive than Sudgy's.

Sudgy's is too short. Otherwise it would be pretty impressive.

It's just the right size for me.  If it was longer, everyone with my screen resolution would see a scroll bar.

[cactus]

I went into my favourite coffee shop today and the guy said "as of Monday we are going to be charging an extra 50c for coffee (current price $3.50 and every sixth coffee free). I said "oh, OK, thanks for letting me know".

It also helps that the coffee they serve there is good.

[Seprix]

I went into my favourite coffee shop today and the guy said "as of Monday we are going to be charging an extra 50c for coffee (current price $3.50 and every sixth coffee free). I said "oh, OK, thanks for letting me know".

It also helps that the coffee they serve there is good.

At least they don't serve $90.00 a cup.

[cactus]

I went into my favourite coffee shop today and the guy said "as of Monday we are going to be charging an extra 50c for coffee (current price $3.50 and every sixth coffee free). I said "oh, OK, thanks for letting me know".

It also helps that the coffee they serve there is good.

At least they don't serve $90.00 a cup.

Well. Quite. I mean my point is at least I didn't walk in for my regular after lunch cup of coffee with exactly $3.50 in my pocket only to be told "guess what? We just put the price up to $7 since yesterday. I mean I know you were here yesterday but we didn't think it worth mentioning".

The fact that this coffee shop serves nice strong non-burnt coffee and has an excellent auto-match system just makes me all the more inclined to pay a fair price for good product.

[Witherweaver]

I went into my favourite coffee shop today and the guy said "as of Monday we are going to be charging an extra 50c for coffee (current price $3.50 and every sixth coffee free). I said "oh, OK, thanks for letting me know".

It also helps that the coffee they serve there is good.

Do you live in Manhattan?

Edit: Also, does automatch match you with cups of coffee, or match you with other patrons?