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[werothegreat]

Time for another card of the week... Margrave!

Starting questions:

* How does it compare to other handsize attacks?
* How does it compare to other terminal draw?
* How many Margaves do you usually get?
* What the heck is a Margrave, anyway?

[shmeur]

I think it compares to the other hand-size attacks and terminal draw in that it does both.  It's essentially Militia+Smithy [with a buy in place of virtual coin].  I usually get as many as I can if there are plenty of extra actions; otherwise, I just get a couple, depending on what other cards there are.  And Margrave "was originally the medieval title for the military commander assigned to maintain the defense of one of the border provinces of the Holy Roman Empire or of a kingdom."

[Marcory]

Margrave (and Landgrave) were considered to be ranked higher than Count (Graf/Grave) and lower than Duke (Herzog).

This is kind of a Jack-of-All-Trades-type card. It's not as strong an attack as either Militia (or Goons, or Followers, or Mercenary), Ghost Ship, or Torturer, and sometimes it's not as strong as Cutpurse or Taxman, but it has the very useful +Buy.

As far as a comparison to other Smithies, this is probably weaker than Torturer but stronger than the non-attack Smithies. It also compares unfavorably with Wharf, as its attack is weaker when opponents have Wharves.

If a board already has +Buy, Terminal Draw, and a discard attack, you can probably skip Margrave. But on boards that lack one of the above, Margrave is a good pickup.

[theblankman]

Margrave is an excellent Smithy-variant for both BM and engines; the +buy makes him especially awesome in those kinds of decks and even good in some kinds of slogs.  If he's my terminal of choice in a BM or slog, I get enough to play them pretty regularly, but not so many that they collide all the time, so it depends on the size (or intended size) of my deck. 

In engines, how many is trickier, especially in engine mirrors, because of the attack's downside: cycling your opponent and giving them one more card from which to choose their three-card hand each time you play one.  If it's the only draw in a Village-Smithy style engine, I still get as many as you need to keep your engine humming and just live with the fact that while your opponent is playing a 3-card hand, it might end up being a very good 3-card hand.  But if there are other sources of draw, then I decide how many of my draw cards should be Margrave by asking myself questions like:
- How important is it that I play a discard attack every turn?
- How many buys do I need, and would I rather get them from some other source if possible?

[ConMan]

In BM, definitely a nice combination of draw+attack so I'd want a couple. In an engine, if it's the only +Cards and/or +Buy then it's still very nice so I'd want a decent amount of them and if it lets my opponent sift to a decent 3-card hand then so be it. If there are other +Cards/+Buy options then I'd probably still grab 2±1 for the attack as a single play is still reasonably strong (with an effect somewhere between Militia and Urchin) and a second play is unlikely to make things too much worse.

[mameluke]

Actually, I find it much more annoying when I'm playing an engine and my opponent plays three or four of these in a turn. Sure, it's nice that I get the extra card to choose from, but if I end up drawing a nice engine component that I can't keep in my hand (since my other three cards are also crucial), the rest of my deck ends up being bad cards, since my good cards got cycled into my discard. I know this doesn't always happen, but it sure can, and it's very annoying.

[Accatitippi]

Actually, I find it much more annoying when I'm playing an engine and my opponent plays three or four of these in a turn. Sure, it's nice that I get the extra card to choose from, but if I end up drawing a nice engine component that I can't keep in my hand (since my other three cards are also crucial), the rest of my deck ends up being bad cards, since my good cards got cycled into my discard. I know this doesn't always happen, but it sure can, and it's very annoying.

I see how it can be annoying, but it's just as likely as the opposite, you sifting through all the junk and getting a deck composed of good cards, with an a hand capable of drawing it all.

[xyz123]

It is only really an attack the first time you play it as subsequent Margraves have the potential to improve your opponent's hand.

In an engine game in my opinion it is at its most effective if there are other sources of draw and buy and you can draw your deck whilst only having a single Margrave.

It is one of my favourite cards for trying to design kingdoms around as I find it interesting to combine it with weaker sources of draw and buy and seeing if you are better off with multiple Margraves or just having one and building your engine around the weaker alternatives.

[faust]

Some tactical notes on Margrave:

If you happen to have other discard attacks in your engine (say Goons engine with Margrave as the only draw), it is marginally better to play them before Margrave. That way, your opponent has less information when discarding.

This can be used to trigger an opponent's reshuffle. I don't think I've ever done it for that, but theoretically you could make your opponent's good cards skip a shuffle. For this reason, it's also usually a little better to play junkers before Margrave, especially when triggering a reshuffle if you can.

[ehunt]

Being hit by one Margrave is probably marginally worse than being hit by one Torturer. Being hit by 3+ Margraves is probably marginally better than not being attacked at all.

[werothegreat]

Every Margrave after the first is essentially your opponent being forced to play a Fugitive from their hand.  I prefer to have a single Margrave, and lean on other draw cards, if possible.  If Margrave is the *only* draw, then... oh well.  Get a bunch.

[Co0kieL0rd]

We probably all agree on that, and some people mentioned it already, but just for the sake of completion I want to emphasize that, although playing multiple Margraves slightly helps your opponents, if Margrave is your only (or best) source of draw for your engine, you should always play as many as you need. Drawing your whole deck each turn is more vital than denying other players those extra choices they get from your Margraves.

[Dingan]

You can spell "Mr Ravage" from "Margrave".

The guy is leaning on his sword point-down on what is likely a stone floor.  Wouldn't that dull the point?

He looks Asian or some sort of mix, but honestly I have no idea.

[SCSN]

Even when there's other draw available you usually want multiple Margraves because for most of the early- to mid-game you're not at all guaranteed to draw through your deck each turn, and playing zero Margraves is so much worse than playing two where you would otherwise have played one and a Smithy.

[mameluke]

Actually, I find it much more annoying when I'm playing an engine and my opponent plays three or four of these in a turn. Sure, it's nice that I get the extra card to choose from, but if I end up drawing a nice engine component that I can't keep in my hand (since my other three cards are also crucial), the rest of my deck ends up being bad cards, since my good cards got cycled into my discard. I know this doesn't always happen, but it sure can, and it's very annoying.

I see how it can be annoying, but it's just as likely as the opposite, you sifting through all the junk and getting a deck composed of good cards, with an a hand capable of drawing it all.

Yes, I admit that, and it's similar to Minion in that regard. But, imagine your opponent just shuffled his deck, and had a hand of all copper or a bunch of junk. Or a couple of weak hands. Now it's likely the rest of his deck (as long as you don't make him reshuffle) will be better cards. Multiple Margraves will force him to discard many of those good cards. I've had a number of games like this where I'm holding Border Village/Margrave/Margrave and I'm forced to discard another BV or whatever else. At least with Militia you choose your best 3/5 and the top of your deck remains the same. Speaking of, Ghost Ship and THEN Margrave is also annoying, depending on what's in your hand.

[jomini]

The number of Margraves you want is normally inversely proportional to the strength of trashing or ease of draw gain. On Chapel boards, Margrave is completely skippable with other discard, draw and +buy on non-trashing boards, I'd likely raise SCSN an additional Margrave. Scheme functions a lot like trashing here and allows you to have very high odds of always hitting Margrave allowing you to use Labs or Smithies instead.

Margrave is almost worthless as an attack when you draw your whole deck; I might keep one on a Pool board but I'd have to have a good reason for that.

Related to this, on a few boards it can be worth it to buy and later trash Margraves. Get the second Margrave while you are building the Engine with Junk dealer (or whatever) so that you are sure to hit the discard ... but you may well reach a point where +3 cards isn't worth giving your opponent a free Fugitive. +3 cards is pretty big, but if you really can get by without it don't be afraid to toss it (e.g. late game you will almost always want to Prssn one of your Margraves into a Hunting grounds; most things aren't this obvious but cheap enough draw tends to move in this direction).

Top deck mucking works very well to offset the Fugitive effect. Fortune teller/Margrave or Rabble/Margrave are pretty nice at limiting the hand sifting. Ghost ship is also useful, particularly if they can't be sure you will play the Margrave after the Ghost ship. B-crat has some issues (e.g. hitting B-crat first only lets you draw 2 to continue a chain and Silver can clog decks ... but you can offset the draw of Margrave entirely.

Secret chamber tends to be a better than normal in Margrave games. Margrave games tend to be a bit more green tolerant - you have sufficient draw if you have villages and you may sift out 4 or 5 cards on any given turn. Secret chamber lets you convert those into coin for just a bit more draw (better reliability) and it allows you to increase your search space for good cards.

Margrave vs other attacks in BM is something I'm still not sure about (there are so few BM boards these days). On the one hand +3 cards, +1 buy is vastly better than +$2, on the other best 3 of 6 is a good bit worse than best 3 of 5. I will say that it is terribly bad on a BM/Plat board. Likewise, I'm not all that sure how well Margrave plays out with Alt-VP. Like most discard attacks it is weak against decks with lots of discardable green and Fugitive only gets better here ... but on the other hand +cards and +buy can allow you to fight off a few early engine hands and maybe double tap your key piles (Duchy or Gardens or Silk Roads) a few times.