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[dondon151]

IGG doesn't raise that bar as much, and thus it doesn't make games as boring as Jack does.

Oh, really? IGG rushing mandates that you pass up $5 actions every turn until the IGGs run out.

[jimjam]

Strategy question: What would be the correct course of action when playing with both Witch and IGG. Say both players (correctly, most likely) grab 1 Witch. Should they get a second Witch, or just start buying IGGs? After 2 Witches, should one buy IGG?
With Familiar I assume IGGs might be ignored.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Strategy question: What would be the correct course of action when playing with both Witch and IGG. Say both players (correctly, most likely) grab 1 Witch. Should they get a second Witch, or just start buying IGGs? After 2 Witches, should one buy IGG?
With Familiar I assume IGGs might be ignored.

It probably depends on what else there is, but generally I think 1 Witch and then IGGs is probably best. The second Witch you'd get too late to get enough plays in. Similarly with Familiar, it's just too slow. With any other curse-giver, I just ignore familiar.

[Kirian]

The main reason is that I'm used to strict, active, forums. Forums where there are mediocre posts, good posts, and great posts, and the bad posters get warned/temp banned until they either fix their bad posting and make it good or get banned for not attempting to improve their posting. For example of where I come from with these types of posts:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=302492

Yeah... this is neither TeamLiquid nor Elitist Jerks.  Oddly, this forum has almost never shown a need for moderation.  Threadjacking and thread necromancy aren't all that prevalent here despite a quite active forum.  You want TL/EJ rules for a forum?  Go post there.

On topic:  I turn more and more toward rrenaud's thinking the more times I play with IGG.  If one player gets a 5/2 split, the game is almost certainly over (and I've now played both sides of that split; both games were pretty boring and both ended exactly as you'd expect).  If IGG is dominant, it's a more boring game than Ambassador tennis, because Ambassador doesn't run two piles out in ten turns.  It's an almost certain three-pile.

More importantly--and I think this is a big problem--IGG is the only card that can give curses consistently without defense.  Masquerade can give Curses if there are normal cursers in the game, but Masquerade is one of those times when you have to really think about buying cursers anyway.  Every other Curse-giving card is an attack, and can be stymied--obviously not on all boards, but almost any reaction, HT excepted.

Consider:  would you want to play an IGG game in person?  I suspect it would be horribly boring, much like an Ambassador game in person.

[Beyond Awesome]

Strategy question: What would be the correct course of action when playing with both Witch and IGG. Say both players (correctly, most likely) grab 1 Witch. Should they get a second Witch, or just start buying IGGs? After 2 Witches, should one buy IGG?
With Familiar I assume IGGs might be ignored.

I know I'm only in my level 10's. But, if I opened 5/2, I would buy one IGG first because you will curse them faster before the first reshuffle, thus doing more damage to their deck. Also, the IGG will act as a pseudo-silver, and help you buy Witch faster. After that, I would get a Witch, and probably just pick up IGG along the ways.

[DG]

Strategy question: What would be the correct course of action when playing with both Witch and IGG. Say both players (correctly, most likely) grab 1 Witch. Should they get a second Witch, or just start buying IGGs? After 2 Witches, should one buy IGG?

Someone else posted a kingdom with this the other day and I still haven't entirely figured it out with the simulator. The witch initially seemed the stronger opener, but as soon as you added alternative drawing cards (nobles, smithy, council room) into the simulator the balance changed in favour of buying entirely iggs. I'm guessing this means it is kingdom dependant.

[vulturesrow]

Strategy question: What would be the correct course of action when playing with both Witch and IGG. Say both players (correctly, most likely) grab 1 Witch. Should they get a second Witch, or just start buying IGGs? After 2 Witches, should one buy IGG?

Someone else posted a kingdom with this the other day and I still haven't entirely figured it out with the simulator. The witch initially seemed the stronger opener, but as soon as you added alternative drawing cards (nobles, smithy, council room) into the simulator the balance changed in favour of buying entirely iggs. I'm guessing this means it is kingdom dependant.

You are probably referring my game that I posted:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120117-210519-457a0beb.html

and the previous discussion for those who are interested: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1480.0

Here are my thoughts as it pertains to this discussion (noobish as they are). I thought taking the IGG with my first 5 was the right play because of it putting the curse into the opponent's deck right then, rather than waiting for Witch to show up after the reshuffle. I did hem and haw over the initial buy for a while.

[ehunt]

I still don't understand the argument that I should buy witch over IGG the first time I hit five. It's the difference between putting a curse in the opponent's deck possibly once more over the course of the game versus getting the curse in a full shuffle earlier. The earlier turns are way more important. It's the same reason you don't pull a witch out of the black market deck when there's only a couple provinces left.

[Razzishi]

More importantly--and I think this is a big problem--IGG is the only card that can give curses consistently without defense.  Masquerade can give Curses if there are normal cursers in the game, but Masquerade is one of those times when you have to really think about buying cursers anyway.  Every other Curse-giving card is an attack, and can be stymied--obviously not on all boards, but almost any reaction, HT excepted.

Trader and Watchtower work perfectly fine against it.

[Asklepios]

I'd agree that IGG is quite a low skill card, but there's still potential for playing around with it.

In a recent game, my opponent and I both went for IGG rush, but whereas he went for Duchy's, I went for Gardens, buying just one duchy when it ended the game. End result was slightly in my favour. Likewise, I've had some success in copper manipulation paired with IGG.

Incidentally, in a straight IGG to Duchy rush, is the best strategy to ALWAYS add the copper, even if you don't need it right now? Part of me worries that doing so reduces the odds of the occasional lucky province, but another part of me thinks that avoiding getting <$5 is more important...

[Deadlock39]

From Geronimoo:

According to simulations you want to get the Copper from IGG only if it will allow a better buy that turn.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1061.msg16919#msg16919

I don't know for sure if this was tested for IGG vs IGG.  Perhaps in the mirror match, the rules are different.

[^_^_^_^]

From Geronimoo:

According to simulations you want to get the Copper from IGG only if it will allow a better buy that turn.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1061.msg16919#msg16919

I don't know for sure if this was tested for IGG vs IGG.  Perhaps in the mirror match, the rules are different.

Yes but that is a standard case. Does it also apply for with gardens?

[DStu]

Yes but that is a standard case. Does it also apply for with gardens?

You are not seriously asking this, or?

[Deadlock39]

The original question about Copper gaining wasn't related to the Gardens game that was mentioned.  (That is my at least interpretation of what was said.)  I can't imagine anything other than gaining Copper every single time you can is the right strategy when Gardens are on the board.

[toaster]

Of course, one problem with viewing IGG as overwhelmingly dominant is that is can cause you to put on blinders and fail to recognize when it's a bad option:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120125-000429-2133d9d9.html

[Deadlock39]

I've got that one beat toaster... I did realize about half way through this game or so that I was a complete fool, and was going to get destroyed, but I didn't really see any way out of it so I just stuck to the plan.  I really should have stuck around for one more turn to let him piledrive the Provinces (sorry Dux), but I was ashamed of my stupidity and resigned.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111204-181312-b8fab835.html

[chwhite]

Of course, one problem with viewing IGG as overwhelmingly dominant is that is can cause you to put on blinders and fail to recognize when it's a bad option:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120125-000429-2133d9d9.html

Yeah, there are definitely situations where IGG is a bad option in a way that other curse-givers aren't.  I'm particularly ashamed of this one:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111116-180516-5779b4ec.html

Don't let the close score fool you, this was an utter bloodbath.

[Anon79]

My favourite part of chwhite's game: with Chapel on the board, the following happens!

Code: [Select]

--- Obi Wan Bonogi's turn 1 ---
Obi Wan Bonogi plays 2 Coppers.
Obi Wan Bonogi buys a Duchess.

[Tahtweasel]

Of course, one problem with viewing IGG as overwhelmingly dominant is that is can cause you to put on blinders and fail to recognize when it's a bad option:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120125-000429-2133d9d9.html

Yeah, there are definitely situations where IGG is a bad option in a way that other curse-givers aren't.  I'm particularly ashamed of this one:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111116-180516-5779b4ec.html

Don't let the close score fool you, this was an utter bloodbath.

I'm not completely convinced that you did anything wrong, at least early on. It feels like OBB might have had better shuffle luck than you did.

[popsofctown]

IGG doesn't raise that bar as much, and thus it doesn't make games as boring as Jack does.

Oh, really? IGG rushing mandates that you pass up $5 actions every turn until the IGGs run out.

There aren't many 5$ actions that fit into BM/Jack, either.  At least there are 3$ and 4$ actions that go with IGG and that's interesting.  Wasn't there a frontpage article about Jack pointing out that in CouncilRoom that the only actions you that recorded doing well alongside Jack was some handsize reducers?

[dondon151]

There aren't many 5$ actions that fit into BM/Jack, either.  At least there are 3$ and 4$ actions that go with IGG and that's interesting.  Wasn't there a frontpage article about Jack pointing out that in CouncilRoom that the only actions you that recorded doing well alongside Jack was some handsize reducers?

Uh, on the contrary, Jack usually improves with most $5 Actions, even if they're not handsize reducers.

[HiveMindEmulator]

There aren't many 5$ actions that fit into BM/Jack, either.  At least there are 3$ and 4$ actions that go with IGG and that's interesting.  Wasn't there a frontpage article about Jack pointing out that in CouncilRoom that the only actions you that recorded doing well alongside Jack was some handsize reducers?

I think you are thinking of this article, though it doesn't reference councilroom at all. The article is pretty wrong and really misleading and has led to a lot of complaints about Jack. Simulator says pretty much any reasonable $5 card + money with a jack (or 2) at the opening beats jack+money.

[rrenaud]

Maybe it was this post by me that he was referring to?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1431.msg23933#msg23933

I've tried to find synergistic cards with Jack of all Trades on the http://councilroom.com/supply_win page.  Maybe I should work on making the data easier to copy to the forum?  But JoaT seems pretty damn resistant to helping anything.

Maybe Inn is the card that gains the most?  +3% chance of buying, win stats basically the same, an extra .07 inns bought per game.

Maybe JoaT tends to shorten games, most cards are purchased less often when its available.

[Kahryl]

While Hinterlands introduces a lot of awesome cards, I think IGG and JoaT are the worst-designed cards in Dominion.  Before they came out I vetoed randomly; now I'm seriously considering vetoing those.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Maybe it was this post by me that he was referring to?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1431.msg23933#msg23933

I've tried to find synergistic cards with Jack of all Trades on the http://councilroom.com/supply_win page.  Maybe I should work on making the data easier to copy to the forum?  But JoaT seems pretty damn resistant to helping anything.

Maybe Inn is the card that gains the most?  +3% chance of buying, win stats basically the same, an extra .07 inns bought per game.

Maybe JoaT tends to shorten games, most cards are purchased less often when its available.

But you're looking for something else there. You're trying to see if the presence of Jack makes certain cards more likely to be part of a winning strategy. The comment was about X+Jack+money being better than Jack+money. This kind of question is better answered by simulation, and the simulator says the following $5 cards (possibly among others -- all I did to make this list was take the default bots and add a jack or 2 and compare to the jack bot) X satisfy this:
bazaar, cartographer, council room, duke, embassy, explorer, festival, inn, lab, library, merchant ship, mountebank, rabble, royal seal, stables, stash, torturer, vault, venture, wharf, witch

That's a pretty long list, which suggests that Jack+money is a pretty poor strategy. This means that even in the presence of jack, you have some interesting decisions to make. If there are more than one of these cards around, which one (or two) do you go for? And this is just $5 cards. The lower cost cards may also influence the decision between the 5s just as in a game without jack.