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Author Topic: Cards you hate!  (Read 101895 times)

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eHalcyon

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #225 on: July 18, 2015, 10:51:05 am »
+3

Young Witch is present, again with very weak trashing, but an amazing bane in Scheme.  I chose to open YW/Silver hoping to spike 5 (and did so!), whereas he opened YW/Scheme and got the ideal for that (hit me with 2 curses, topdecked Scheme every time to ensure perfect defense).  Which opening is better given the flop possibilities in both cases? Is a totally different opening better?

It's usually a mistake to buy Young Witch when Scheme is the bane... I'd probably open Bridge/Scheme and go for a HoP thing.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 10:55:32 am by eHalcyon »
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nrrden

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #226 on: July 18, 2015, 12:39:18 pm »
0

Throne Room

I am absolutely over this - never links up with any of my action cards while my opponent seems to string together all manner of B/S connections.

Hate the thing
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #227 on: July 18, 2015, 12:50:00 pm »
+2

Throne Room

I am absolutely over this - never links up with any of my action cards while my opponent seems to string together all manner of B/S connections.

Hate the thing

You need more Action cards in your deck and less junk cards.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #228 on: July 18, 2015, 10:59:07 pm »
+1

I play terribly all of the time, there are very few games I go back an look at where I don't feel I made any mistakes at all. I'm sure other "top players" will say the same thing. And most of the time these misplays are tactical things -- not the kind you're talking about. Little ways I could have played my turn better or ordered my buys to make things move along quicker, or reduce the chance of bad things happening to me. Sometimes I catch these things while I'm playing, but a lot of the time I only see them on the replay or when someone in chat tells me about it. I'm quite sure that if someone looks at their play closely enough, they will find tons of these, everywhere. In most turns of almost every game.

Yeah, that was not what I meant with "terribly". I was responding to Mic Qsenoch, who has clarified more what he meant with "terrible".

Quote
Maybe your definition of "terribly" is something I'm not picking up on, but any misplay (even a small one) is a chance for me to learn from it. Maybe you don't find any benefit in looking at your past games closely, that's OK.

I do, and I don't think I said I don't. I just said you should also consider how much of it is luck. That's the first thing to figure out. If it's mostly players' decisions, and especially if it's strategic decisions, there is something to learn from the progression and outcome of the game. If it was mostly luck, it's difficult. If your view is that it doesn't matter (to be able to learn from it) how much of it was decided by luck, then that means it doesn't matter how it turned out in the end, which means you could just as easily learn by looking at the kingdom before the game starts. On the other hand, I can only learn from a game by playing it. That means seeing how the game progresses. To make it extreme, if I choose strategy A and you choose strategy B, and shuffle luck completely sabotages you on turn 4 and I have smooth sailing, the progression after that doesn't tell me much about which strategy was better (unless your strategy was so good that you won anyway of course). If it tells you just as much as if the luck were more or less equal, then I don't understand why you need the actual game at all.

Quote
You can say it's true, but I can say it isn't true (or at least that I don't know that it's true, just to give you the burden of proof :P) but both of us are just saying things based on our guts and not on actual knowledge. That number (50%) was effectively pulled out of thin air, I can pull a number out of thin air too and say it's less than 50%.

Yes. It's just my impression that it's more than half.

Quote
If you believe this is the case, then I'd say you need to work on getting better at learning. When I start a thread to talk about something and get feedback, my takeaways aren't specific moves I should have done better that game, it's assumptions about the way I play the game that need to change. Do I need to adjust in my mind the power level of a card or a pair of cards? Do I need to put in a mental note to slow down at a certain point in some games? (Never press the "play all treasures" button in a Farmland game. Just don't ever do it before thinking about what you're going to buy.) Or maybe I just need to play a bunch of games with a card or two cards or something to get a feel for something. It will be different for you but if you can't learn from your past games, maybe try learning a different way? I mean, you describe this problem and that just doesn't register with me so maybe it's on your end. I'm sorry but I feel like this isn't really helpful, what I'm saying here. :-\

Firstly, see above. Secondly, I'm not asking for help. I can learn from past games, some more than others. I learn less useless things by identifying that in some games what happened was decided more by luck than by the players' decisions. That's all I'm saying. Identifying that, and then also analyzing decisions in the correct way and learning from that, is difficult and I'm not saying I'm great at it. You might be better at it than me. But that would mean you're doing it, maybe without realizing it (or wanting to talk about it, like you say).

I see how when players ask for help in finding out why they lost, everybody just ignores the obvious, like, "your Mountebank missed the shuffle every time". Instead they focus on these minute details of decisions that might be correct, but that play a minor role unless both players have exactly equal luck. (Sometimes these small decisions might make or break a game, but in my view that doesn't happen that often. But over a big bunch of games, the player who makes more correct decisions will win more games.) Anyway, my point here is that I think that to tell beginner or medium players to ignore the role of luck in a given game and just make them think that they make their own shuffle luck, is bad advice, because it implies that if they lost, it was because they played badly. Sure, there's always stuff you can learn from every game by having better players analyzing your play, but that is true of all games, whether you won or lost.


« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 11:00:12 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #229 on: July 18, 2015, 11:12:35 pm »
0

I basically agree with you 100% on YMYOSL philosophy in theory and 100% with Adam in practice because one approach makes people look for mistakes and one makes people look for excuses. Anybody who gets better must necessarily hunt out their mistakes.

To repeat: If the outcome was decided more by luck than by the players' decisions, you learn more by realizing this than not realizing it. You can still hunt out mistakes (whether you won or lost), but that sounds like something you can do by having better players tell you. If you're going to find mistakes yourself, you need the context of the game and seeing how your decisions influenced what happened, and that works less well the more luck skewed it.

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #230 on: July 18, 2015, 11:16:14 pm »
+1

I basically agree with you 100% on YMYOSL philosophy in theory and 100% with Adam in practice because one approach makes people look for mistakes and one makes people look for excuses. Anybody who gets better must necessarily hunt out their mistakes.

To repeat: If the outcome was decided more by luck than by the players' decisions, you learn more by realizing this than not realizing it. You can still hunt out mistakes (whether you won or lost), but that sounds like something you can do by having better players tell you. If you're going to find mistakes yourself, you need the context of the game and seeing how your decisions influenced what happened, and that works less well the more luck skewed it.

*psst*
You're talking to the better players
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Seprix

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #231 on: July 18, 2015, 11:22:41 pm »
0

I basically agree with you 100% on YMYOSL philosophy in theory and 100% with Adam in practice because one approach makes people look for mistakes and one makes people look for excuses. Anybody who gets better must necessarily hunt out their mistakes.

To repeat: If the outcome was decided more by luck than by the players' decisions, you learn more by realizing this than not realizing it. You can still hunt out mistakes (whether you won or lost), but that sounds like something you can do by having better players tell you. If you're going to find mistakes yourself, you need the context of the game and seeing how your decisions influenced what happened, and that works less well the more luck skewed it.

Yeah, pardon me if I believe all of the more experienced players over you.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #232 on: July 18, 2015, 11:36:42 pm »
+4

I basically agree with you 100% on YMYOSL philosophy in theory and 100% with Adam in practice because one approach makes people look for mistakes and one makes people look for excuses. Anybody who gets better must necessarily hunt out their mistakes.

To repeat: If the outcome was decided more by luck than by the players' decisions, you learn more by realizing this than not realizing it. You can still hunt out mistakes (whether you won or lost), but that sounds like something you can do by having better players tell you. If you're going to find mistakes yourself, you need the context of the game and seeing how your decisions influenced what happened, and that works less well the more luck skewed it.

"Hunting out mistakes" for me includes considerations of luck, I'm not suggesting in any way that decisions should be removed from their context.

Oh and the people who are trying to tell Jeebus to shut up because of the leaderboard or whatever are idiots. Because hey look at the leaderboard: Jeebus is a strong player.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #233 on: July 18, 2015, 11:40:39 pm »
+5

Not being on Mic's level != having an invalid perspective. Besides, it's not like Jeebus is a new player; he's quite good.

What he's saying is valid. It is important to understand luck plays a big role in games and also to understand when luck was the deciding factor in something. However, it's also important to realize that you can do more about the factors you have control over and your energy is better spent worrying about those than luck.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #234 on: July 18, 2015, 11:45:47 pm »
0

Not being on Mic's level != having an invalid perspective. Besides, it's not like Jeebus is a new player; he's quite good.

What he's saying is valid. It is important to understand luck plays a big role in games and also to understand when luck was the deciding factor in something. However, it's also important to realize that you can do more about the factors you have control over and your energy is better spent worrying about those than luck.

Yeah, that's basically what I think
I for one was specifically disagreeing with saying that (angrily projecting) you shouldn't bother looking for mistakes in your play and instead just let better players tell you what you did wrong which is a Great Frickin' thing to do when you're one of the top players. I'm sure that if our other top players here make a mistake, they don't think about it, say luck happened and maaaayybe ask someone higher up than them to help. I'm sure that plan Especially helps Stef.
Sure, information can come from anywhere, but Jeebus isn't even advocating for looking at all places possible to improve your play, they're instead advocating for the complete opposite.

...wow this makes me mad. whooops.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #235 on: July 19, 2015, 12:05:19 am »
+7

Just another thought, there's also a class of mistakes which are basically immune to the problem Jeebus is talking about. In that it's possible to identify them without even seeing the random outcome. These come up fairly often and can be pretty important. The simplest example is missing a guaranteed forced win (complex or otherwise). It could also be something like missing a gain and play move that would have strictly improved your deck quality relative to what you actually did. Could be the order you played your actions where one way would have given you strictly more information for later decisions. Dominion games have a lot going on and even the strongest players fail to lock down all these things 100% of the time.

I find that all players make these mistakes on a regular basis, and while their impact tend to be small, they can occasionally be huge. And when you're playing an engine it's quite possible to make a few of these every turn, which can really add up over the course of a game. It's nice to try and find these errors even when they aren't the "deciding factor" because maybe the next game they will be.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2015, 12:06:57 am by Mic Qsenoch »
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Haddock

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #236 on: July 19, 2015, 09:01:30 am »
+1

Great Frickin' thing to do when you're one of the top players. I'm sure that if our other top players here make a mistake, they don't think about it, say luck happened and maaaayybe ask someone higher up than them to help. I'm sure that plan Especially helps Stef.
The attitude that you can only be helped by someone "better" than you is a bizarre one. (im not saying you have that attitude, to be honest I'm struggling to see from your post what your opinion is on what I'm about to say) When we're talking about identifying mistakes, the best players make them, sure. And it doesn't necessarily take a better player to point them out. Anyone coming from a decently informed position can probably help just by being a second pair of eyes coming from an impartial position (or an opponent; discussion with opponents can be hugely fruitful). The idea that someone like, say, Seprix, is incapable of suggesting to, say, Stef, that he thinks that decision X in a game was a mistake (thus presumably initiating a helpful discussion for one or other of them), is kind of insane. (that sentence got away from me.)
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #237 on: July 19, 2015, 09:37:10 am »
0

I just played a couple of games on Goko and I lost every single one (no, there was a tie game). I think I managed to identify at least one crucial tactical mistake I made in each game. I mean, it was a different decision each time, like I bought Jack too late, underestimated Pillage or overestimated Soothsayer. Of course I don't know for sure if those were (among) the reasons I lost but I feel like all my theoretical knowleadge I collected from watching Dominion streams and reading stuff on the forum helps me evaluate a game despite a total lack of practise. Anyway I couldn't help making all those mistakes. I guess reading what good players have to say in general or getting direct advice from them will only get you so far. You still need to practise, practise, practise.
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Seprix

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #238 on: July 19, 2015, 10:34:28 am »
0

I haven't won more than 1 game in a row in almost a month, and I'm losing tons of games in between. This was not the case until now. It can't be luck, but I can't find many reasons why I lost anymore. It feels like my improving has stopped now. It's to the point where I kind of want a tutor for like a week because I'm so on tilt it seems. Maybe when I stream today, someone can tell me what I'm doing?
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #239 on: July 19, 2015, 10:40:30 am »
+1

Maybe when I stream today, someone can tell me what I'm doing?

I can. You're streaming.
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Seprix

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #240 on: July 19, 2015, 10:59:37 am »
0

Maybe when I stream today, someone can tell me what I'm doing?

I can. You're streaming.

Right now!?
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #241 on: July 19, 2015, 11:01:22 am »
0

Maybe when I stream today, someone can tell me what I'm doing?

I can. You're streaming.

Right now!?

No, when you stream today.
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Seprix

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #242 on: July 19, 2015, 12:34:03 pm »
0

Maybe when I stream today, someone can tell me what I'm doing?

I can. You're streaming.

Right now!?

No, when you stream today.

I didn't realize you were making a joke because I was in a hurry.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #243 on: July 19, 2015, 12:44:36 pm »
+1

Maybe when I stream today, someone can tell me what I'm doing?

I can. You're streaming.

Right now!?

No, when you stream today.

I didn't realize you were making a joke because I was in a hurry.

I think you can assume that every post of mint is a joke by default unless there's a reason to assume otherwise.
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Seprix

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #244 on: July 19, 2015, 12:48:21 pm »
0

Maybe when I stream today, someone can tell me what I'm doing?

I can. You're streaming.

Right now!?

No, when you stream today.

I didn't realize you were making a joke because I was in a hurry.

I think you can assume that every post of mint is a joke by default unless there's a reason to assume otherwise.

I do think Mint is a joke of a card. :)
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #245 on: July 19, 2015, 11:05:06 pm »
0

Just a few comments.

You can also get insight from players that are not better than you of course. I said that wrong.

I didn't say that only other players can help you, or that you shouldn't bother looking for mistakes. I certainly didn't say that you should just "say" that luck happened, and not look for things to learn from the game. I just said you should weigh all factors.

I see what Mic is saying about the other "class of mistakes". Finding errors that aren't the "deciding factors" are also important. I kind of said that, but didn't acknowledge that you can actually find these mistakes yourself and learn from them, even when luck skewed the game as such.

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #246 on: July 20, 2015, 01:00:53 am »
+8

This has to be the most ridiculous thread I've read since that one about the frequency of three pile endings in high level games being basically 0 (on bgg I think).

How is it that some people are coming away from this thinking either Jeebus or MicQ are saying crazy things? There's no way either of them feel that way about the other. At most there is disagreement about degree.

Like, there's no way MicQ is reading Jeebus's posts and thinking? "Luck?  There's no luck in dominion!"  Nor is Jeebus reading Mic's posts and thinking "What's the point of trying to find mistakes when the game is basically decided by the end of turn 4 by shuffle luck?!"

Let's step back for a second and realize that both of these guys are making claims that are for the most part quite reasonable if you just interpret them generously.  Of course there is Luck!  Of course no one on here believes the game is all luck or they wouldn't play the game!  So let's just try to interpret the things people are saying from a position of "What point must be trying to be made here? If it sounds crazy to me, am I misunderstanding their position?"

« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 01:33:48 am by nate_w »
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #247 on: July 20, 2015, 07:14:42 am »
+18

I don't get this discussion either. Dominion is very clearly a game of great luck and great skill: great skill whenever I win a game; great luck whenever my opponent does.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #248 on: July 20, 2015, 09:10:23 am »
+1

I haven't won more than 1 game in a row in almost a month, and I'm losing tons of games in between. This was not the case until now. It can't be luck, but I can't find many reasons why I lost anymore. It feels like my improving has stopped now. It's to the point where I kind of want a tutor for like a week because I'm so on tilt it seems. Maybe when I stream today, someone can tell me what I'm doing?

Just thought I would add this - skill development isn't linear. It peaks and plateaus at times. It doesn't mean you'll never get better, but that you may be in one of those plateaus for awhile. Are you more tired or busy than normal? That can make it hard to improve. The more you play when well rested, thoughtful, and focused, the sooner you'll leave your plateau and begin improving again.

Watch some videos, experiment with strategies you might not otherwise do, fuck around a bit. Maybe some of the old patterns you fall into are holding you back.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #249 on: July 20, 2015, 09:17:10 am »
0

I haven't won more than 1 game in a row in almost a month, and I'm losing tons of games in between. This was not the case until now. It can't be luck, but I can't find many reasons why I lost anymore. It feels like my improving has stopped now. It's to the point where I kind of want a tutor for like a week because I'm so on tilt it seems. Maybe when I stream today, someone can tell me what I'm doing?

Just thought I would add this - skill development isn't linear. It peaks and plateaus at times. It doesn't mean you'll never get better, but that you may be in one of those plateaus for awhile. Are you more tired or busy than normal? That can make it hard to improve. The more you play when well rested, thoughtful, and focused, the sooner you'll leave your plateau and begin improving again.

Watch some videos, experiment with strategies you might not otherwise do, fuck around a bit. Maybe some of the old patterns you fall into are holding you back.

Yes, I'm very burned out. Last week of college.
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