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[markusin]

Seriously, there is no point dropping the discussion. I think this forum has enough meme threads that one more serious topic among them won't hurt. Just don't read it if you don't like to. But Adam brought up a legitimate concern that is not unimportant for this forum. I think it's great that we discuss this here.

Yes, I myself enjoyed reading the "off-topic" discussion this time around. Though, if it needs to continue much further then I think it should go in another thread, where people will be less hesitant to chime in because it's the "Cards you Hate!" thread, a thread that spurs some fun discussion on its own.

I'm not sure how I feel about most of the commonly hated cards such as Possession and Cultist. However, I strongly dislike Peddler of all cards. In games with no good sources of +buy, it's fine as a "oh I can pick this up for $2" (I'll try GendoIkari's Chrome extension later). But in games with lots of +Buy and +Actions, it's just like "Okay, I get 3 Peddlers this turn, then you get 3 on your turn, then I get the remaining 4 on my turn *sticks tongue out*. Oh and I have Remodel in my deck" (I'm in no mood to discuss punctuation in quotation, but I'm of the "This is a sentence". camp). 

It's a bit sad for me that Peddler is one of Donald's favourite Prosperity cards.

[Roadrunner7671]

Silver

Really? Without Silver, it would be a LOT harder to get up to $5 and $6 cards, and you'd need a lot of Gold to buy Provinces!

[Jack Rudd]

Silver

Really? Without Silver, it would be a LOT harder to get up to $5 and $6 cards, and you'd need a lot of Gold to buy Provinces!

Hate is a bit strong. It's more that I find the card uninteresting, and actively enjoy building decks that never gain a Silver.

[werothegreat]

Silver

Really? Without Silver, it would be a LOT harder to get up to $5 and $6 cards, and you'd need a lot of Gold to buy Provinces!

Hate is a bit strong. It's more that I find the card uninteresting, and actively enjoy building decks that never gain a Silver.

You must loathe Masterpiece.

[GendoIkari]

What is YMYOSL?

[eHalcyon]

What is YMYOSL?

you make your own shuffle luck

[Seprix]

What is YMYOSL?

Yesterday, My Yak Overtly Stole Lichen.

[LastFootnote]

Back to topic, has anyone else made the experience that Possession is more enjoyable in games IRL than online (which isn't hard since it's not enjoyable online at all), especially for more casual players? Those are unlikely to focus their strategy on getting lots of Possessions (or lots of anything) and thus when they play it once or twice, it's a a moment of special satisfaction to them while the person being possessed usually doesn't mind it that much if it's only for one turn.

Yes, Possession is more fun in real life than it is online. I would also say that it's true of Tournament, Black Market, and some others.

[shmeur]

Seriously, there is no point dropping the discussion. I think this forum has enough meme threads that one more serious topic among them won't hurt. Just don't read it if you don't like to. But Adam brought up a legitimate concern that is not unimportant for this forum. I think it's great that we discuss this here.

Yes, I myself enjoyed reading the "off-topic" discussion this time around. Though, if it needs to continue much further then I think it should go in another thread, where people will be less hesitant to chime in because it's the "Cards you Hate!" thread, a thread that spurs some fun discussion on its own.

I'm not sure how I feel about most of the commonly hated cards such as Possession and Cultist. However, I strongly dislike Peddler of all cards. In games with no good sources of +buy, it's fine as a "oh I can pick this up for $2" (I'll try GendoIkari's Chrome extension later). But in games with lots of +Buy and +Actions, it's just like "Okay, I get 3 Peddlers this turn, then you get 3 on your turn, then I get the remaining 4 on my turn *sticks tongue out*. Oh and I have Remodel in my deck" (I'm in no mood to discuss punctuation in quotation, but I'm of the "This is a sentence". camp). 

It's a bit sad for me that Peddler is one of Donald's favourite Prosperity cards.

See, I'm the opposite.  If there aren't enough buys in a Peddler, I get frustrated; especially if I can't decide between a gold or a Peddler or something else.

[terminalCopper]

The way I see it is this. When I was new, I was told strategies, and I was cool with it. And then there were always strings attached, inconsistencies and edge cases. Nothing was definite, everything had a sort of Descartes and nihilist feel to it. I didn't really know anything and nothing I was taught mattered at all. [...] It's better to just say general truths, and say everything generally works, but has edge cases than to bring up all of the scenarios. Save that for more experienced players, is what I propose.

This is a really important observation. When someone is new and/or stuck in a suboptimal habit, they need simple directions to a new playground, not elaborate minutiae. It's similar to someone struggling with basic high school math asking whether x*y equals y*x. The unequivocally correct answer is "yes, it does!". If someone would interferes by mumbling something about quaternions or matrix algebra, he doesn't deserve applause for being technically correct, he deserves to get kicked out of class.

Advice needs to be tailored to the specific needs of your audience, and in the case of Urchins I saw a lot of players from all levels making gross blunders that my simple prescription would mostly correct. It's silly to presume that this somehow holds people back. Teaching Newtonian gravity in highschool doesn't prevent students from learning General Relativity later; it's actually smuggling in advanced nuances too early that messes up learning the most.

SCSN, You're good at didactics. Great at dominion. So, please, please, please: Write some articles

[markusin]

Seriously, there is no point dropping the discussion. I think this forum has enough meme threads that one more serious topic among them won't hurt. Just don't read it if you don't like to. But Adam brought up a legitimate concern that is not unimportant for this forum. I think it's great that we discuss this here.

Yes, I myself enjoyed reading the "off-topic" discussion this time around. Though, if it needs to continue much further then I think it should go in another thread, where people will be less hesitant to chime in because it's the "Cards you Hate!" thread, a thread that spurs some fun discussion on its own.

I'm not sure how I feel about most of the commonly hated cards such as Possession and Cultist. However, I strongly dislike Peddler of all cards. In games with no good sources of +buy, it's fine as a "oh I can pick this up for $2" (I'll try GendoIkari's Chrome extension later). But in games with lots of +Buy and +Actions, it's just like "Okay, I get 3 Peddlers this turn, then you get 3 on your turn, then I get the remaining 4 on my turn *sticks tongue out*. Oh and I have Remodel in my deck" (I'm in no mood to discuss punctuation in quotation, but I'm of the "This is a sentence". camp). 

It's a bit sad for me that Peddler is one of Donald's favourite Prosperity cards.

See, I'm the opposite.  If there aren't enough buys in a Peddler, I get frustrated; especially if I can't decide between a gold or a Peddler or something else.

I think I would have liked the cost reduction effect on a card that was less spammable with no consequence. The cost reduction allows for balancing cards through making them difficult to get early on but then being able to get then for a reasonable price later.

[Throwaway_bicycling]

Silver

Really? Without Silver, it would be a LOT harder to get up to $5 and $6 cards, and you'd need a lot of Gold to buy Provinces!

Okay, so in the spirit of making this a teachable moment...

Yes, an early Silver (or something that gives you $2) makes it rather easier to get $5 cards, but if you look through the game logs of top players or watch the streams, you will find that, surprisingly often, the Top 100 only buy the one, and they might even trash it or pass it later on after it's served its purpose.

And there are surprisingly many games when top players never buy (or even gain) one at all, and yet these are often games that are over in like 12 or 13 turns. Once you figure out how this works, your rating cannot help but go up a lot.

[Roadrunner7671]

Silver

Really? Without Silver, it would be a LOT harder to get up to $5 and $6 cards, and you'd need a lot of Gold to buy Provinces!

Okay, so in the spirit of making this a teachable moment...

Yes, an early Silver (or something that gives you $2) makes it rather easier to get $5 cards, but if you look through the game logs of top players or watch the streams, you will find that, surprisingly often, the Top 100 only buy the one, and they might even trash it or pass it later on after it's served its purpose.

And there are surprisingly many games when top players never buy (or even gain) one at all, and yet these are often games that are over in like 12 or 13 turns. Once you figure out how this works, your rating cannot help but go up a lot.

I try not to but too many Silvers when I'm playing with an Engine, but you really need a 'slighshot' card like Moneylender or Baron to get you up to 6 on turn 3 so that you can jump right to Gold. With BM, however, a Silver is almost always a good buy.

[Awaclus]

I try not to but too many Silvers when I'm playing with an Engine, but you really need a 'slighshot' card like Moneylender or Baron to get you up to 6 on turn 3 so that you can jump right to Gold. With BM, however, a Silver is almost always a good buy.

You don't want Gold right away when you're playing an engine. The $5 Actions are probably much more important. Also, Moneylender doesn't give you any more money than a Silver does (it does remove the Copper from your deck though, which is very nice).

[Roadrunner7671]

I try not to but too many Silvers when I'm playing with an Engine, but you really need a 'slighshot' card like Moneylender or Baron to get you up to 6 on turn 3 so that you can jump right to Gold. With BM, however, a Silver is almost always a good buy.

You don't want Gold right away when you're playing an engine. The $5 Actions are probably much more important. Also, Moneylender doesn't give you any more money than a Silver does (it does remove the Copper from your deck though, which is very nice).

I tend to buy Gold if I hit $6, as I think that it will allow me to get more $5 actions down the road, and it will increase the average hand value more than most $5 cards at that point in the game.

[Awaclus]

I try not to but too many Silvers when I'm playing with an Engine, but you really need a 'slighshot' card like Moneylender or Baron to get you up to 6 on turn 3 so that you can jump right to Gold. With BM, however, a Silver is almost always a good buy.

You don't want Gold right away when you're playing an engine. The $5 Actions are probably much more important. Also, Moneylender doesn't give you any more money than a Silver does (it does remove the Copper from your deck though, which is very nice).

I tend to buy Gold if I hit $6, as I think that it will allow me to get more $5 actions down the road, and it will increase the average hand value more than most $5 cards at that point in the game.

You shouldn't.

[LastFootnote]

I try not to but too many Silvers when I'm playing with an Engine, but you really need a 'slighshot' card like Moneylender or Baron to get you up to 6 on turn 3 so that you can jump right to Gold. With BM, however, a Silver is almost always a good buy.

You don't want Gold right away when you're playing an engine. The $5 Actions are probably much more important. Also, Moneylender doesn't give you any more money than a Silver does (it does remove the Copper from your deck though, which is very nice).

I tend to buy Gold if I hit $6, as I think that it will allow me to get more $5 actions down the road, and it will increase the average hand value more than most $5 cards at that point in the game.

You shouldn't.

Helpful!

[Jimmmmm]

I hate Fool's Gold.

[qmech]

it will increase the average hand value more than most $5 cards at that point in the game.

This might be true, but the $5 action is going to do much more for you in the long run.

[Roadrunner7671]

it will increase the average hand value more than most $5 cards at that point in the game.

This might be true, but the $5 action is going to do much more for you in the long run.

If the payload of your engine is treasure, then I think it will help you a lot...

[theJester]

Silver

Really? Without Silver, it would be a LOT harder to get up to $5 and $6 cards, and you'd need a lot of Gold to buy Provinces!

Okay, so in the spirit of making this a teachable moment...

Yes, an early Silver (or something that gives you $2) makes it rather easier to get $5 cards, but if you look through the game logs of top players or watch the streams, you will find that, surprisingly often, the Top 100 only buy the one, and they might even trash it or pass it later on after it's served its purpose.

And there are surprisingly many games when top players never buy (or even gain) one at all, and yet these are often games that are over in like 12 or 13 turns. Once you figure out how this works, your rating cannot help but go up a lot.

I try not to but too many Silvers when I'm playing with an Engine, but you really need a 'slighshot' card like Moneylender or Baron to get you up to 6 on turn 3 so that you can jump right to Gold. With BM, however, a Silver is almost always a good buy.

See, when playing an engine, you usually want up to 1 silver, just to help you reach $5 on your second shuffle. And when you do get "slinged" to $5 or $6, the card you want to be buying is not gold, but some powerful engine piece.

You want to get your engine up and running as fast as possible, and Gold will not help there (it may even hinder you, by making your engine pieces less likely to connect). Instead, $5/6 is price level that contains some pretty powerful engine cards you want to get ASAP (of course, depending on a board): cards that let you draw (Wharf, Journeyman, Stables...), slow down your opponent (Mountebank, Witch, Goons...), are powerful trashers (Upgrade, Junk Dealer...), offer some other benefits or combine any of the above (Margrave, Minion, Governor...). In engines, all of these are more important than an early Gold.

[Roadrunner7671]

Silver

Really? Without Silver, it would be a LOT harder to get up to $5 and $6 cards, and you'd need a lot of Gold to buy Provinces!

Okay, so in the spirit of making this a teachable moment...

Yes, an early Silver (or something that gives you $2) makes it rather easier to get $5 cards, but if you look through the game logs of top players or watch the streams, you will find that, surprisingly often, the Top 100 only buy the one, and they might even trash it or pass it later on after it's served its purpose.

And there are surprisingly many games when top players never buy (or even gain) one at all, and yet these are often games that are over in like 12 or 13 turns. Once you figure out how this works, your rating cannot help but go up a lot.

I try not to but too many Silvers when I'm playing with an Engine, but you really need a 'slighshot' card like Moneylender or Baron to get you up to 6 on turn 3 so that you can jump right to Gold. With BM, however, a Silver is almost always a good buy.

See, when playing an engine, you usually want up to 1 silver, just to help you reach $5 on your second shuffle. And when you do get "slinged" to $5 or $6, the card you want to be buying is not gold, but some powerful engine piece.

You want to get your engine up and running as fast as possible, and Gold will not help there (it may even hinder you, by making your engine pieces less likely to connect). Instead, $5/6 is price level that contains some pretty powerful engine cards you want to get ASAP (of course, depending on a board): cards that let you draw (Wharf, Journeyman, Stables...), slow down your opponent (Mountebank, Witch, Goons...), are powerful trashers (Upgrade, Junk Dealer...), offer some other benefits or combine any of the above (Margrave, Minion, Governor...). In engines, all of these are more important than an early Gold.

Okay, you're probably right, thanks!

[Co0kieL0rd]

Silver

Really? Without Silver, it would be a LOT harder to get up to $5 and $6 cards, and you'd need a lot of Gold to buy Provinces!

Okay, so in the spirit of making this a teachable moment...

Yes, an early Silver (or something that gives you $2) makes it rather easier to get $5 cards, but if you look through the game logs of top players or watch the streams, you will find that, surprisingly often, the Top 100 only buy the one, and they might even trash it or pass it later on after it's served its purpose.

And there are surprisingly many games when top players never buy (or even gain) one at all, and yet these are often games that are over in like 12 or 13 turns. Once you figure out how this works, your rating cannot help but go up a lot.

I try not to but too many Silvers when I'm playing with an Engine, but you really need a 'slighshot' card like Moneylender or Baron to get you up to 6 on turn 3 so that you can jump right to Gold. With BM, however, a Silver is almost always a good buy.

See, when playing an engine, you usually want up to 1 silver, just to help you reach $5 on your second shuffle. And when you do get "slinged" to $5 or $6, the card you want to be buying is not gold, but some powerful engine piece.

You want to get your engine up and running as fast as possible, and Gold will not help there (it may even hinder you, by making your engine pieces less likely to connect). Instead, $5/6 is price level that contains some pretty powerful engine cards you want to get ASAP (of course, depending on a board): cards that let you draw (Wharf, Journeyman, Stables...), slow down your opponent (Mountebank, Witch, Goons...), are powerful trashers (Upgrade, Junk Dealer...), offer some other benefits or combine any of the above (Margrave, Minion, Governor...). In engines, all of these are more important than an early Gold.

Okay, you're probably right, thanks!

There are of course boards where the only payload of your engine is Treasures. Even in that case it is important that you get your engine pieces first. Until you reliably draw your deck each turn, every Gold makes you more likely to stall. Also, there's, what, 30 Golds in the Supply but only 10 of each of those precious $5-cards which is why you need to amass those as quickly as possible. You lose the Wharf/Hunting Party/Stables split, you lose the game.

[Awaclus]

There are of course boards where the only payload of your engine is Treasures. Even in that case it is important that you get your engine pieces first. Until you reliably draw your deck each turn, every Gold makes you more likely to stall.

More importantly, every Gold you buy is a turn wasted on not making your engine work better. If you'd normally have a working engine by turn 9, you will have it by turn 10 instead if you bought a Gold in the early game. You probably drew that Gold like 3 times during that time — that's not worth delaying everything by a whole turn. In the late game, the Gold you buy this turn will be in your hand next turn and every turn after that, so you get a lot more value out of it than in the early game, and the faster you get to the point where you can do that, the more time you will have to get even more value out of your Golds (or whatever your payload is).

[jomini]

Silver

Really? Without Silver, it would be a LOT harder to get up to $5 and $6 cards, and you'd need a lot of Gold to buy Provinces!

Okay, so in the spirit of making this a teachable moment...

Yes, an early Silver (or something that gives you $2) makes it rather easier to get $5 cards, but if you look through the game logs of top players or watch the streams, you will find that, surprisingly often, the Top 100 only buy the one, and they might even trash it or pass it later on after it's served its purpose.

And there are surprisingly many games when top players never buy (or even gain) one at all, and yet these are often games that are over in like 12 or 13 turns. Once you figure out how this works, your rating cannot help but go up a lot.

I try not to but too many Silvers when I'm playing with an Engine, but you really need a 'slighshot' card like Moneylender or Baron to get you up to 6 on turn 3 so that you can jump right to Gold. With BM, however, a Silver is almost always a good buy.

See, when playing an engine, you usually want up to 1 silver, just to help you reach $5 on your second shuffle. And when you do get "slinged" to $5 or $6, the card you want to be buying is not gold, but some powerful engine piece.

You want to get your engine up and running as fast as possible, and Gold will not help there (it may even hinder you, by making your engine pieces less likely to connect). Instead, $5/6 is price level that contains some pretty powerful engine cards you want to get ASAP (of course, depending on a board): cards that let you draw (Wharf, Journeyman, Stables...), slow down your opponent (Mountebank, Witch, Goons...), are powerful trashers (Upgrade, Junk Dealer...), offer some other benefits or combine any of the above (Margrave, Minion, Governor...). In engines, all of these are more important than an early Gold.

Okay, you're probably right, thanks!

Think of it this way, a Smithy at game opening is worth $2.1. A Smithy with one Silver in deck is worth $2.45. Smithy only gets more value when you have villages and can chain them. $5 actions almost always start worth a lot more than a Smithy.


In general, Engines tend to mean buying zero - three silvers.
1. Zero - I can generate engine components without Silver (e.g. Chap/Workshop/Remodel can quickly get villages, draw and then Remodel $4's into Golds if you can do that quicker than building in draw to use Silver over gold
2. One - hit $5 a bit easier, something good to open at $4.
3. Two - nothing good to open sub $5 and a need to hit $5 or up early
4. Three - no copper trashing engine - $7 from coppers, $6 from Silvers, and $3 from a gold gives us $16 - enough for two provinces. Ideally, you'd have 7 coppers and 3 golds (save a card), but normally you don't hit $5 often enough to skip the silvers entirely.

Much more than that is certainly possible (e.g. University/Margrave/Chapel means 8 Silvers are most efficient than than 5 golds and a copper), but you need a really good reason to go above three silvers in an engine - most boards don't need to go there.