Dominion > Rules Questions

Exact timing of "when you trash"

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dane-m:
Help!  I've come to the conclusion that I no longer seem to be able to make sense of the timing of "when you trash" for certain cards.  I must be missing some important point, but I can't see what it is.

My problems started when I read through various topics that discussed the exact timing of "when you gain" and its consequences.  I was prompted to do so because in the topic on exchanging Travellers (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13166.msg489093#msg489093) Jeebus makes use of that to establish the exact timing of "when you discard" for exchanging Travellers.  Along the way I also encountered various examples that were given of the timing of "when you trash".  In case my problems stem from misunderstanding any of what I've read this morning, I'd better start by summarising what I think I've learnt:

* "When you gain" occurs when the gain completes.  One of the consequences is that Watchtower moves the card from the location to which it was originally gained as opposed to intercepting it en route and redirecting it.
* "When you discard" occurs when the discard completes.  One of the consequences is that BoM-Page is on the discard pile (and hence a BoM capable of being returned to its own pile rather than incapable of being returned to the Page pile) when the exchange takes place.
* "When you trash" occurs when the trash completes.  So technically a trashed Fortress goes to the trash pile before being returned to hand.My problem is that I now don't understand how BoM-(card-with-on-trash-ability) and Estate-Inherit-(card-with-on-trash-ability) manage to make use of the on-trash ability.  Although in the above I've deliberately used the word "occurs" rather than "triggers", my current understanding is based on the assumption that "occurs" and "triggers" are identical, in which case I draw the conclusion that BoM-(card-with-on-trash-ability) and Estate-Inherit-(card-with-on-trash-ability) have already become BoM and Estate respectively by the time I check for on-trash ability so there no longer is one.  What am I missing?

At one stage I thought I'd managed to work out what I was getting wrong, but the explanation to myself didn't quite seem to hold water.  My attempted revised understanding was that on-trash abilities were checked for at the start of the trashing process, so BoM would still be in play and the Estate would still be mine and hence have an on-trash ability, but didn't trigger until the trash had completed.  The problem with that explanation was that although I had no trouble understanding how a 'when-gain' ability could trigger for Estate-Inherit-(card-with-on-gain-ability) - buy happens before gain, so clearly the Estate would be mine before checking for the 'on-gain' - it left me failing to understand how a 'when-buy' ability could trigger for Estate-Inherit-(card-with-on-buy-ability).

Writing this post has forced me to think things through much more carefully.  I can now say that if I've misunderstood the Inheritance mechanism and it is in fact the case that a 'when-buy' ability does not trigger for Estate-Inherit-(card-with-on-buy-ability), then I don't have a problem with the exact timing of "when you trash".

Jimmmmm:
I must admit I'm still not fully clear on why Inherited Estates get both on-buy/gain effect and on-trash effects. I'm glad they do though!

GendoIkari:
I feel like MTG rules could be helpful here.


--- Quote ---603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event
matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine
what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However,
some triggered abilities must be treated specially. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that
trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see
is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes
unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that
trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and
the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward. The game has to “look back
in time” to determine if these abilities trigger.
--- End quote ---

This sounds like the same thing to me. "When you trash" events are like "leaves the battlefield" triggers. Because the trashed card is no longer in play, the game "looks back in time" to see what card it was that was trashed. And the card that was actually trashed was the transformed BoM or Estate.

I think this also just works logically by a literal reading of the cards. Say you have BoM-as-Fortress and you trash it (Procession). Did you trash a Fortress? Yes, you did. You trashed a card that said "when you trash this..." So that happened. Even though there is no Fortress in the trash, that doesn't matter. You DID trash a Fortress, so the "when you trash" text happens.

With gaining, you can ask a similar question. If you have Estate-as-Border Village, and you buy one, then you gained a card and the card you gained has a "when you gain" ability.

GendoIkari:
Hmmm... if you have Estates being Inherited as an Overpay, can you Overpay for Estates? Then Overpay is a "when you buy" ability, but Estates don't get the cost of the card, so they are still $2 and not $2+. Though I don't think that would matter, the + is more of a reminder than part of the cost. More importantly, when you would need to make the decision to Overpay, it's not your Estate yet.

AJD:

--- Quote from: GendoIkari on May 06, 2015, 08:52:40 am ---More importantly, when you would need to make the decision to Overpay, it's not your Estate yet.

--- End quote ---

That's not right; overpay has the same when-buy timing as Noble Brigand or whatever.

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