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Author Topic: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers  (Read 9824 times)

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werothegreat

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CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« on: April 29, 2015, 04:58:50 pm »
+3

Almost forgot, but it's that time of week again!  Let's talk about... Smugglers!


Starting questions:

* How often do you open Smugglers?
* How does Smugglers compare to other gainers?
* What is your favorite card to Smuggle?
* Who else likes the flavor of Smuggling a card through an Embargo or before it becomes Contraband?
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eHalcyon

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2015, 05:51:07 pm »
+2

- Not that often.
- Not great?
- Cards that normally cost more than $6.
- Sure?

Smugglers is probably best in an engine mirror.  You care about getting your cards quickly, and a mirror means that the cards you smuggle will actually be useful for you.  Because of this, Smugglers is not a great opening.  You don't yet know if your smuggling target will even be going for cards that you want.  They might even adjust their strategy to frustrate your smuggling efforts.

Other gainers are often better.  Smugglers is less reliable as it depends on your opponent, and it's a terminal action with no other bonuses.  The reliability factor is another reason why Smugglers is better in an engine.  If you can regularly draw Smugglers into your hand, you have more opportunity to use it when there's something good to be gained.  That said, Smugglers can gain cards costing up to $6 including Victory cards, which is better than most gainers.  Artificer can match, but it requires you to discard many cards.  HoP can match, but it takes effort and it is trashed if it gains a Victory card.  Duplicate is best; it is like Smugglers except it goes off of your own choices rather than an opponent's.

Cost reduction allows you to smuggle things you otherwise could not, like Provinces.  That's cool.  I guess they have a pretty big boat.
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tailred

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2015, 06:25:26 pm »
+1

Smugglers gets interesting in an alt-vp rush, though. Would it be worthwhile to pick it up in a rebuild game?
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SCSN

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2015, 07:48:47 pm »
+9

Smugglers gets better the better your opponent is. So when eHalcyon says "Smugglers is probably best in an engine mirror. [...] Because of this, Smugglers is not a great opening." I'm inclined to disagree, but that is because I'm playing mostly engine mirrors. If your opponent is poorer, you don't really know him, or you're playing someone like Mic or WW, opening Smugglers becomes more of a risk.

General guidelines

- In the early game, when you know or strongly suspect your opponent has a Smugglers in hand, see if you can buy a card that's better for you than it is for him (e.g. because he already has a copy of a card you don't necessarily want a ton of, like Warehouse). Don't go overboard with this though. It's good to switch your Warehouse and Ironmonger buys to trick your opponent's Smuggler, but don't get nothing or a Silver over a Junk Dealer just because it might get smuggled.

- In the mid-game you're both getting components you need anyway, so the above becomes less of an option. This, in turn, means that Smugglers itself becomes much stronger, as it all but guarantees you the choice of at least one $5+ card. You even have some control over what this is, as when you both have your deck under control and play your Smugglers every turn, if you only buy/gain one unique on Tn, your opponent has no choice but to smuggle this, so that you can smuggle it on Tn+1. At this stage you often want to play with as many Smugglers as your deck can support, which sounds a bit vague so let's just say it's usually 2-3.

- From the late-mid game onwards pile control becomes really important, especially when playing with multiple Smugglers: emptying a pile and having your opponent's 3 Smugglers be useless for a whole turn can be a game-winning move.

My favorite Smugglers game

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140903/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1409796947951.txt

Despite the absence of trashing there's decent engine potential with Wandering Minstrel and Herald, Baker, Grand Market and Smugglers. An interesting thing happens where both of us get multiple Smugglers before it would ordinarily be time to dip into the more expensive cards (GMs and more Bakers), with the result being that neither of us wants to be the first one to get just one copy, as that would lead to the other Smuggling multiples and potentially using them on the same turn, thus making himself the favorite to win the split.

My opponent decides to get a Platinum and go for Colonies, while I go for lesser VP trying to end the game sooner. The interesting thing is that by getting Duchies and Feoda (prefering Duchy over BV-Duchy on T12), my opponent is forced to either follow me or have his Smugglers be useless.

In theory it's possible for a Smugglers mirror to lead to an actual stalemate where the first player to buy a card is guaranteed to lose, but I've yet to hear of this happening in practice.

TL;DR

« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 08:00:49 pm by SheCantSayNo »
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eHalcyon

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2015, 08:04:58 pm »
0

If your opponent is poorer, you don't really know him, or you're playing someone like Mic or WW, opening Smugglers becomes more of a risk.

Is that because Mic and WW are somewhat less likely to play the typical/obvious engine (maybe all the more if you open Smugglers), or because they are particularly good at playing around Smugglers, or something else?

In theory it's possible for a Smugglers mirror to lead to an actual stalemate where the first player to buy a card is guaranteed to lose, but I've yet to hear of this happening in practice.

I vaguely recall seeing a game report from Stef(?) where this (nearly?) happened, but I am not sure.
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SCSN

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2015, 08:07:03 pm »
+1

If your opponent is poorer, you don't really know him, or you're playing someone like Mic or WW, opening Smugglers becomes more of a risk.

Is that because Mic and WW are somewhat less likely to play the typical/obvious engine (maybe all the more if you open Smugglers), or because they are particularly good at playing around Smugglers, or something else?

The first, and that happens to lead to the second.
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DG

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2015, 09:03:29 pm »
0

Smugglers is often the wrong card to use and it showed in the iso statistics. If your right hand opponent is gaining really useful 5 and 6 cost cards every turn then it's better than a workshop. It might be a game winner. The rest of the time it's worse than a workshop and workshops aren't the most useful cards anyway.

The game losing aspect of smugglers is the inability to gain provinces or help buy provinces. Terminal overload is often a big problem too.
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dondon151

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2015, 11:59:43 pm »
+4

In theory it's possible for a Smugglers mirror to lead to an actual stalemate where the first player to buy a card is guaranteed to lose, but I've yet to hear of this happening in practice.

I've had this sort of happen in a casual game against an RL friend; it was a kingdom with Highway and no +buy and the game reached a point where if he bought VP, I could smuggle it thrice. Fortunately he only had 2 Smugglers to my 3, but if we had the same number of Smugglers, then I think the game would have been a stalemate.

I think the conventional wisdom regarding Smugglers is outdated; you cannot ignore it in most engine kingdoms.
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Chris is me

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2015, 08:10:18 am »
0

Smugglers is really way better than it looks, particularly in kingdoms with a fairly obvious path to an engine that you both want the same cards for. Most times when I ignore it, my opponent beats me with it. If there's a contested pile, Smugglers will decide who wins the pile.

If the opportunity cost of an early Smugglers is lowered somehow (easy Villages, etc), you definitely want one, particularly if you're playing someone who's as good or better at the game as you.

Smugglers is definitely a card that has gotten much better as Dominion has added expansions. I'm not really sure why; maybe it's easier to load up on Actions now, maybe there's more power cards that you want large numbers of. But I think it's unfair to look at old stats and say it's a bad card - you have to realize that Smugglers is a card that you have more incentive to buy if you're more likely to lose. Correlation, causation, etc.
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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2015, 08:31:26 am »
+2

Smugglers is definitely a card that has gotten much better as Dominion has added expansions. I'm not really sure why; maybe it's easier to load up on Actions now, maybe there's more power cards that you want large numbers of. But I think it's unfair to look at old stats and say it's a bad card - you have to realize that Smugglers is a card that you have more incentive to buy if you're more likely to lose. Correlation, causation, etc.

I think it's mostly because players have gotten better. If you look at old posts on this forum, you can sometimes find very good players giving awful advice.
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Burning Skull

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2015, 08:48:56 am »
+1

Smugglers get progressively worse when stacked.

c4master

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2015, 09:06:37 am »
0

Smugglers is often the wrong card to use and it showed in the iso statistics. If your right hand opponent is gaining really useful 5 and 6 cost cards every turn then it's better than a workshop. It might be a game winner. The rest of the time it's worse than a workshop and workshops aren't the most useful cards anyway.

The game losing aspect of smugglers is the inability to gain provinces or help buy provinces. Terminal overload is often a big problem too.

I disagree on this.

You can smuggle Duchies (or any other alt VP card) which is definately important in the end game - even in non mirrors.

Plus, I still have in mind, that Smugglers is much better for the second player to get than for the first. It's a high risk - high reward card. However, opening smugglers is mostly a bad idea. That is, because in the beginning you often buy cards like Silver or maybe Militia, which are ok, but you don't want to have a ton of them. It obviously doesn't help you in Colony games as much as it does otherwise, but it's still worth considering at some point. Even the psycological pressure it puts on your opponent is sometimes worth it.
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DG

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2015, 09:13:51 am »
0

Smugglers is really way better than it looks, particularly in kingdoms with a fairly obvious path to an engine that you both want the same cards for. Most times when I ignore it, my opponent beats me with it.

The old isotropic stats give smugglers a "win rate with" of 91% and a "win rate without" of 111%. That puts it in the same bracket as herbalist, cache, talisman, saboteur, treasure map, and other cards that you need a good reason to buy. I'm afraid it could be possible that you're a bad judge of smuggler kingdoms.
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DG

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2015, 09:15:48 am »
0

Quote
You can smuggle Duchies (or any other alt VP card) which is definately important in the end game - even in non mirrors.

Smuggling a duchy and buying a duchy is still worse than simply buying a province.
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Awaclus

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2015, 09:19:17 am »
+3

Quote
You can smuggle Duchies (or any other alt VP card) which is definately important in the end game - even in non mirrors.

Smuggling a duchy and buying a duchy is still worse than simply buying a province.

Smuggling three Duchies and buying a Province is better than simply buying a Province.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2015, 09:27:10 am »
+10

I think it's mostly because players have gotten better. If you look at old posts on this forum, you can sometimes find very good players giving awful advice.

If you look at new posts on this forum you can find very good players giving awful advice!

edit: inb4 SCSN post quoting this
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 09:30:38 am by Mic Qsenoch »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2015, 10:31:15 am »
+8

Would anyone (at least ~30 iso level) like to play a Smugglers Cage Match this week or weekend? If you're interested please PM me.
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werothegreat

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2015, 11:08:54 am »
+4

You also may have noticed that Smugglers now has a shiny new high-res image - all the Seaside cards have now been re-uploaded to the wiki.
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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2015, 11:13:31 am »
0

Some basic/intermediate stuff:

Smugglers, more than most gainers, gets a boost from scaling TfB. When you can Apprentice or Salvage cards you don't want (say early duchies), it adds a lot of flexibility. The Remodel family does double duty - it allows you to get rid of cards that don't fit your engine and it increases the odds that the opponent with have useful $2- 6 gains.

Potion cards tend to really hurt opening Smugglers and may contradict them the entire game. For instance, Apothecary will mean a lot of dead Smuggler draws while Golem will mean some dead draws and a lot of danger with mandatory, specified gains. Now Smugglers can be more useful mid-game (e.g. when Pool tends to be gaining lots of actions or recovering from Familiar cursing might make playing the Smuggler lottery a valid choice), but early turns with dead Smugglers are pretty harsh. The one exception tends to be Vineyards where folks tend to want to gain a lot of actions early and where you virtually never lose a Vineyard buy for having gone Smugglers.

I've heard folks say that $7 or $8 cards makes for bad Smugglers. In my experience this isn't so. Forge, Kc, and Expand all can get a lot of use out of Smuggler (granted Kc can be a bit of crapshoot, but Smuggling $15 worth of cards even once is pretty nice) and with Forge/Expand you can always trash your Smugglers. Peddlers are a bit iffy, normally Smugglers isn't a great enabler (terminal, non-drawing actions being weak at mass gaining Peddlers) ... but if there is a card your opponent prefers to Peddler at $4 (e.g. a Wv over a $4 Peddler) it isn't so bad. Prince of Smugglers is pretty lousy, far better to Prince something that lets you draw and play your Smugglers; however Prince decks almost always revolve around getting through a lot of your deck each turn (engine or sifting) and Smugglers can work alright at building up engines.

General stuff:
The big question is the opportunity cost. Smugglers will turn a lot of turns that would have been $5 into a $3 + Smuggle and less commonly but still important you will have a number of early $2 + Smuggler (while $4 ain't $5, $2 cards may not even be out). If your Smuggles are useful $5s you just got a free village, nice but how often are they going to be $5 and useful?

If your opponent opens Silver/Silver you have an have an 8.8% chance of both of you missing $5 in the opening. You also have a 14.9% chance that your opponent will hit $5 both turns again, you come out netting a free village. But on the rest of the time your opponent will likely have a $5 one turn and a $3 or $4 the other. You will only line up a single Smuggler half the time (assuming you go second), so half the time you will get $5, $3, X and the other half the time you will get $3, $4, X. The math can be known to be better or worse for P1 as T1 tells them what cash value they can expect for a Smuggler hit on T3.

But this assumes the opponent is going Silvers. Presumably there is a decent terminal (either +cards, trashing, curser, or +$/attack) in most games. If the opponent opens with non-TfB trashing your Smugglers face big odds of hitting $2s or nothing. If the opponent has gotten a Swindler, you might want reconsider adding $5s (particularly if you are trashing) when they might turn into Duchies. +cards gives your opponent a cycling advantage early and that can be enough for them to come out ahead with a T3/4/5 buy of Smugglers themselves (particularly if that means you end up smuggling Smugglers and get off whack on action balance). When to buy Smugglers, assuming it is indeed viable, depends a lot on how the opening turns will go. Ideally you want your opponent to be gaining a lot of versatile cards (+cards, and +action) and a lot of high cost/power cards ($5 & $6) before you dip into Smugglers.

In virtually every engine match-up Smugglers eventually is useful for some amount of time. That time is when Smugglers is very likely to be a live card that gains something worth busting a $5 buy. It also tends to become unuseful for a time - when buys are $8, $9, or $11 and then may become useful again for Duchies, spare card gains (e.g. opponent buys Province/Warehouse), or pile threats. You can make a pretty decent educated guess based on just the board and a VERY good read if you can anticipate your opponent of when you want your Smugglers. Don't get it too early (e.g. T1 in a Familiar game) nor too late (e.g. a turn or two before the opponent will start reliable province buys).

Against an opponent who is good at tracking your deck, expect both the early and late dead periods for Smuggler to be longer. You can significantly hamper Smugglers by timing types of buys (e.g. if Bazaar/Council Room is the engine build then it can be worth it to muck up your own action balance a bit to ensure that your opponent gets starved for Bazaars, particularly if you can double tap Bazaar once when they are unlike to Smuggle and again to pile out at something like 7:3 or 6:4).
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dondon151

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2015, 04:17:56 pm »
+5

The old isotropic stats give smugglers a "win rate with" of 91% and a "win rate without" of 111%. That puts it in the same bracket as herbalist, cache, talisman, saboteur, treasure map, and other cards that you need a good reason to buy. I'm afraid it could be possible that you're a bad judge of smuggler kingdoms.

Or it could be possible that people were just bad at playing Smuggler in the "old Isotropic" days.
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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2015, 04:41:22 pm »
0

The old isotropic stats give smugglers a "win rate with" of 91% and a "win rate without" of 111%. That puts it in the same bracket as herbalist, cache, talisman, saboteur, treasure map, and other cards that you need a good reason to buy. I'm afraid it could be possible that you're a bad judge of smuggler kingdoms.

Or it could be possible that people were just bad at playing Smuggler in the "old Isotropic" days.

well, the cards were different too. especially dark ages has lots of "small parts" that smuggler is so good for getting.
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DG

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2015, 05:03:41 pm »
0

The old isotropic stats give smugglers a "win rate with" of 91% and a "win rate without" of 111%. That puts it in the same bracket as herbalist, cache, talisman, saboteur, treasure map, and other cards that you need a good reason to buy. I'm afraid it could be possible that you're a bad judge of smuggler kingdoms.

Or it could be possible that people were just bad at playing Smuggler in the "old Isotropic" days.

I seem to remember they were worse at playing develop, outpost, and various other cards that still had a better success rate than smugglers. In any case, if you're suggesting they played it badly then they were finding exactly the problems I mentioned at the top of the thread. We can expect new players to find the exactly the same problems again in the future.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 05:16:12 pm by DG »
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dondon151

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2015, 06:19:27 pm »
0

I seem to remember they were worse at playing develop, outpost, and various other cards that still had a better success rate than smugglers. In any case, if you're suggesting they played it badly then they were finding exactly the problems I mentioned at the top of the thread. We can expect new players to find the exactly the same problems again in the future.

Develop and Outpost barely had a higher WRW than Smugglers. The opinion of Outpost has changed to where it is also a mandatory card in many engines.

The old isotropic stats give smugglers a "win rate with" of 91% and a "win rate without" of 111%. That puts it in the same bracket as herbalist, cache, talisman, saboteur, treasure map, and other cards that you need a good reason to buy. I'm afraid it could be possible that you're a bad judge of smuggler kingdoms.

The difference is that Smugglers is way, way, way better than all of these and far less situational. Smugglers is usually mandatory in engine mirrors with ample +action and in engine mirrors without +action it can potentially be the strongest terminal payload. If your opponent is incompetent, which is one situation in which Smugglers isn't going to help you, he's probably picked a worse strategy and is going to lose anyway.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2015, 08:55:05 am »
+1

Deadlock and I will be playing a Smugglers Cage Match tomorrow at 22:00 UTC

http://www.twitch.tv/mic_qsenoch
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werothegreat

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #6: Smugglers
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2015, 10:41:29 pm »
0

Deadlock and I will be playing a Smugglers Cage Match tomorrow at 22:00 UTC

http://www.twitch.tv/mic_qsenoch

Has your opinion of the card changed at all following the match?
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