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[Dingan]

Say I have a hand of Count, Copper, Copper, Copper, Market Square.  I play the Count, top deck a Copper, then trash my hand.  Should the Market Square's on-trash reaction trigger?  That is, can I trash the Coppers "before" the MS, and therefore trigger it's reaction because it's still in my hand?  Goko says you cannot, and everything gets trashed at once.

Being able to react the MS would mean you are reacting it after the Count starts, but before it's finished resolving.  This seems weird, but isn't that how reactions work?  I can react my Watchtower during my opponent's Followers (I play the reaction after I gain the Curse but before I have to discard).  I can react my Tunnel during my Vault (after I discard but before my opponent chooses to discard).  Etc.  So why can't I react the MS after I've trashed some cards with Count, but before I've trashed others?

[Awaclus]

Say I have a hand of Count, Copper, Copper, Copper, Market Square.  I play the Count, top deck a Copper, then trash my hand.  Should the Market Square's on-trash reaction trigger?  That is, can I trash the Coppers "before" the MS, and therefore trigger it's reaction because it's still in my hand?  Goko says you cannot, and everything gets trashed at once.

Being able to react the MS would mean you are reacting it after the Count starts, but before it's finished resolving.  This seems weird, but isn't that how reactions work?  I can react my Watchtower during my opponent's Followers (I play the reaction after I gain the Curse but before I have to discard).  I can react my Tunnel during my Vault (after I discard but before my opponent chooses to discard).  Etc.  So why can't I react the MS after I've trashed some cards with Count, but before I've trashed others?

You don't trash the cards one at a time, you trash all of the cards simultaneously. There is no "after I've trashed some cards with Count, but before I've trashed others". Goko has it right. If you trash an Overgrown Estate with Count and the card you draw with it is a Market Square, you can discard it to gain a Gold.

[Dingan]

Say I have a hand of Count, Copper, Copper, Copper, Market Square.  I play the Count, top deck a Copper, then trash my hand.  Should the Market Square's on-trash reaction trigger?  That is, can I trash the Coppers "before" the MS, and therefore trigger it's reaction because it's still in my hand?  Goko says you cannot, and everything gets trashed at once.

Being able to react the MS would mean you are reacting it after the Count starts, but before it's finished resolving.  This seems weird, but isn't that how reactions work?  I can react my Watchtower during my opponent's Followers (I play the reaction after I gain the Curse but before I have to discard).  I can react my Tunnel during my Vault (after I discard but before my opponent chooses to discard).  Etc.  So why can't I react the MS after I've trashed some cards with Count, but before I've trashed others?

You don't trash the cards one at a time, you trash all of the cards simultaneously. There is no "after I've trashed some cards with Count, but before I've trashed others". Goko has it right. If you trash an Overgrown Estate with Count and the card you draw with it is a Market Square, you can discard it to gain a Gold.

So the general rule with reactions is that you may react them in between sentences of other cards, but not mid-sentence?  Or what?  I know this sounds weird, but it seems to be the case.  And I can't think of any counterexamples to that.

[WanderingWinder]

Can someone explain how this is vis a vis Chapel, Remake, Forge?

[TheOthin]

Well for Chapel and Forge you just wouldn't trash the Market Square anyway. For Remake, I'm not sure. Do the two cards get trashed simultaneously? If not, then even with just Remake and two other cards in hand, you could trash the one that isn't Market Square first and then discard Market Square. The cards don't get gained simultaneously so this sounds right to me. But I don't think Steward allows that.

[Jack Rudd]

Well for Chapel and Forge you just wouldn't trash the Market Square anyway. For Remake, I'm not sure. Do the two cards get trashed simultaneously? If not, then even with just Remake and two other cards in hand, you could trash the one that isn't Market Square first and then discard Market Square. The cards don't get gained simultaneously so this sounds right to me. But I don't think Steward allows that.

Steward trashes two cards simultaneously. Remake trashes two cards sequentially. (This matters in a few cases, such as when one of the trashed cards is Fortress.)

[WanderingWinder]

I guess the thought in my mind is a bit different. I've drawn my deck, now I'm trashing things. One of those things is an Overgrown Estate or Rats or Cultist (something that draws me cards when I trash it). I have a Market Square in hand. How is this different with Count, Market Square, Chapel, Forge, Remake? I'm trying to get at the same-sentence vs separate sentences thing.

[pedroluchini]

So the general rule with reactions is that you may react them in between sentences of other cards, but not mid-sentence?  Or what?  I know this sounds weird, but it seems to be the case.  And I can't think of any counterexamples to that.

Reactions react to certain triggers; the sentences used to describe the actions that activate these triggers are irrelevant. In Market Square's case, the trigger is "the act of trashing."

The key to understanding this is to think of the "trashing" trigger as a single event that involves many cards. Here's how it breaks down, in Count's case:

- You play Count.
- You choose the option "topdeck a card" and topdeck a Copper.
- You choose the option "trash all the cards in your hand".
- Your hands consists of Copper, Copper, Market Square. You trash these 3 cards.
- The "trashing" trigger is activated.
- Market Square is not in your hand (it's in the Trash), so you can't reveal it.

Let's think of another example. Your hand consists of Count, Market Square, Rats, Copper, Copper. Here's how it breaks down:

- You play Count.
- You choose the option "topdeck a card" and topdeck the Market Square.
- You choose the option "trash all the cards in your hand".
- Your hands consists of Copper, Copper, Rats. You trash these 3 cards.
- The "trashing" trigger is activated.
- Rats reacts to the trigger. You draw a card... which happens to be the Market Square you topdecked.
- Market Square also reacts to the trigger. Since it is in your hand, you can reveal it and gain a Gold

(Can someone please confirm that this second example is correct?)

[Awaclus]

(Can someone please confirm that this second example is correct?)

It's correct.

[SCSN]

The only difference is with Remake, which says "Do this twice:", so each trashing is a seperate event to which you can react, as if it were a throned Develop, say.

So with Remake you can Remake a Copper, discard MS to gain Gold, then Remake OE into E and draw either the MS or the Gold, with the E ending up in your discard.

When you Chapel or Forge a Copper + OE, the trashing of both cards and the on-trash effect of OE happen before you can react to it, so you draw 1 card from your empty deck before you can discard the MS for a Gold.

[Awaclus]

When you Chapel or Forge a Copper + OE, the trashing of both cards and the on-trash effect of OE happen before you can react to it, so you draw 1 card from your empty deck before you can discard the MS for a Gold.

I don't think this is correct. The on-trash effects of OE and MS happen at the same time, so you can decide the order in which you do them. Not sure if Goko has this right though, probably not.

[markusin]

When you Chapel or Forge a Copper + OE, the trashing of both cards and the on-trash effect of OE happen before you can react to it, so you draw 1 card from your empty deck before you can discard the MS for a Gold.

I don't think this is correct. The on-trash effects of OE and MS happen at the same time, so you can decide the order in which you do them. Not sure if Goko has this right though, probably not.

I wouldn't be so sure they don't have it right. I agree that you should be able to choose the on-trash triggers though. Cards with on-trash effects shouldn't have priority over MS.

[WanderingWinder]

When you Chapel or Forge a Copper + OE, the trashing of both cards and the on-trash effect of OE happen before you can react to it, so you draw 1 card from your empty deck before you can discard the MS for a Gold.

I don't think this is correct. The on-trash effects of OE and MS happen at the same time, so you can decide the order in which you do them. Not sure if Goko has this right though, probably not.

I wouldn't be so sure they don't have it right. I agree that you should be able to choose the on-trash triggers though. Cards with on-trash effects shouldn't have priority over MS.

I'm pretty sure the way they handle it is that they let you trigger the Market Square, then if you pick "done", you draw the card, after which you get another chance to trigger Market Square. This is based on remembering a game I played yesterday.

[Donald X.]

Say I have a hand of Count, Copper, Copper, Copper, Market Square.  I play the Count, top deck a Copper, then trash my hand.  Should the Market Square's on-trash reaction trigger?  That is, can I trash the Coppers "before" the MS, and therefore trigger it's reaction because it's still in my hand?  Goko says you cannot, and everything gets trashed at once.

Being able to react the MS would mean you are reacting it after the Count starts, but before it's finished resolving.  This seems weird, but isn't that how reactions work?  I can react my Watchtower during my opponent's Followers (I play the reaction after I gain the Curse but before I have to discard).  I can react my Tunnel during my Vault (after I discard but before my opponent chooses to discard).  Etc.  So why can't I react the MS after I've trashed some cards with Count, but before I've trashed others?

From the rulebook FAQ for Count: "If you trash multiple cards that do something when trashed at once, trash them all, then choose an order to resolve the things that happen due to them being trashed."

You trash all the cards, that includes Market Square. Now when-trashed things trigger. Market Square of course is not in your hand at that point.

The only difference is with Remake, which says "Do this twice:", so each trashing is a seperate event to which you can react, as if it were a throned Develop, say.

So with Remake you can Remake a Copper, discard MS to gain Gold, then Remake OE into E and draw either the MS or the Gold, with the E ending up in your discard.

When you Chapel or Forge a Copper + OE, the trashing of both cards and the on-trash effect of OE happen before you can react to it, so you draw 1 card from your empty deck before you can discard the MS for a Gold.

You are correct about how Remake is different, but not about Overgrown Estate.

You Chapel a Copper + Overgrown Estate. Put them both into the trash. Now it's time for when-trashed stuff. You could resolve a Market Square from hand first, or Overgrown Estate. After Overgrown Estate is trashed, you can still resolve a Market Square, including one you just drew.

[Dingan]

Say I have a hand of Count, Copper, Copper, Copper, Market Square.  I play the Count, top deck a Copper, then trash my hand.  Should the Market Square's on-trash reaction trigger?  That is, can I trash the Coppers "before" the MS, and therefore trigger it's reaction because it's still in my hand?  Goko says you cannot, and everything gets trashed at once.

Being able to react the MS would mean you are reacting it after the Count starts, but before it's finished resolving.  This seems weird, but isn't that how reactions work?  I can react my Watchtower during my opponent's Followers (I play the reaction after I gain the Curse but before I have to discard).  I can react my Tunnel during my Vault (after I discard but before my opponent chooses to discard).  Etc.  So why can't I react the MS after I've trashed some cards with Count, but before I've trashed others?

From the rulebook FAQ for Count: "If you trash multiple cards that do something when trashed at once, trash them all, then choose an order to resolve the things that happen due to them being trashed."

You trash all the cards, that includes Market Square. Now when-trashed things trigger. Market Square of course is not in your hand at that point.

The only difference is with Remake, which says "Do this twice:", so each trashing is a seperate event to which you can react, as if it were a throned Develop, say.

So with Remake you can Remake a Copper, discard MS to gain Gold, then Remake OE into E and draw either the MS or the Gold, with the E ending up in your discard.

When you Chapel or Forge a Copper + OE, the trashing of both cards and the on-trash effect of OE happen before you can react to it, so you draw 1 card from your empty deck before you can discard the MS for a Gold.

You are correct about how Remake is different, but not about Overgrown Estate.

You Chapel a Copper + Overgrown Estate. Put them both into the trash. Now it's time for when-trashed stuff. You could resolve a Market Square from hand first, or Overgrown Estate. After Overgrown Estate is trashed, you can still resolve a Market Square, including one you just drew.

Makes sense.  So the within-sentence vs. in-between-sentences thing seems to apply with the triggers, with Remake being the 1 exception.  At least how I interpret things.

[eHalcyon]

Say I have a hand of Count, Copper, Copper, Copper, Market Square.  I play the Count, top deck a Copper, then trash my hand.  Should the Market Square's on-trash reaction trigger?  That is, can I trash the Coppers "before" the MS, and therefore trigger it's reaction because it's still in my hand?  Goko says you cannot, and everything gets trashed at once.

Being able to react the MS would mean you are reacting it after the Count starts, but before it's finished resolving.  This seems weird, but isn't that how reactions work?  I can react my Watchtower during my opponent's Followers (I play the reaction after I gain the Curse but before I have to discard).  I can react my Tunnel during my Vault (after I discard but before my opponent chooses to discard).  Etc.  So why can't I react the MS after I've trashed some cards with Count, but before I've trashed others?

From the rulebook FAQ for Count: "If you trash multiple cards that do something when trashed at once, trash them all, then choose an order to resolve the things that happen due to them being trashed."

You trash all the cards, that includes Market Square. Now when-trashed things trigger. Market Square of course is not in your hand at that point.

The only difference is with Remake, which says "Do this twice:", so each trashing is a seperate event to which you can react, as if it were a throned Develop, say.

So with Remake you can Remake a Copper, discard MS to gain Gold, then Remake OE into E and draw either the MS or the Gold, with the E ending up in your discard.

When you Chapel or Forge a Copper + OE, the trashing of both cards and the on-trash effect of OE happen before you can react to it, so you draw 1 card from your empty deck before you can discard the MS for a Gold.

You are correct about how Remake is different, but not about Overgrown Estate.

You Chapel a Copper + Overgrown Estate. Put them both into the trash. Now it's time for when-trashed stuff. You could resolve a Market Square from hand first, or Overgrown Estate. After Overgrown Estate is trashed, you can still resolve a Market Square, including one you just drew.

Makes sense.  So the within-sentence vs. in-between-sentences thing seems to apply with the triggers, with Remake being the 1 exception.  At least how I interpret things.

Instead of thinking of it as within/between sentences, think of it as between instructions.  When an instruction tells you to trash X cards or discard X cards, you do that all at once (unless it says otherwise, and I don't think any of them do).  Only then can you trigger reactions and when-trashed effects.  Remake just happens to have two instructions that do the same thing.

[GeoLib]

Say I have a hand of Count, Copper, Copper, Copper, Market Square.  I play the Count, top deck a Copper, then trash my hand.  Should the Market Square's on-trash reaction trigger?  That is, can I trash the Coppers "before" the MS, and therefore trigger it's reaction because it's still in my hand?  Goko says you cannot, and everything gets trashed at once.

Being able to react the MS would mean you are reacting it after the Count starts, but before it's finished resolving.  This seems weird, but isn't that how reactions work?  I can react my Watchtower during my opponent's Followers (I play the reaction after I gain the Curse but before I have to discard).  I can react my Tunnel during my Vault (after I discard but before my opponent chooses to discard).  Etc.  So why can't I react the MS after I've trashed some cards with Count, but before I've trashed others?

From the rulebook FAQ for Count: "If you trash multiple cards that do something when trashed at once, trash them all, then choose an order to resolve the things that happen due to them being trashed."

You trash all the cards, that includes Market Square. Now when-trashed things trigger. Market Square of course is not in your hand at that point.

The only difference is with Remake, which says "Do this twice:", so each trashing is a seperate event to which you can react, as if it were a throned Develop, say.

So with Remake you can Remake a Copper, discard MS to gain Gold, then Remake OE into E and draw either the MS or the Gold, with the E ending up in your discard.

When you Chapel or Forge a Copper + OE, the trashing of both cards and the on-trash effect of OE happen before you can react to it, so you draw 1 card from your empty deck before you can discard the MS for a Gold.

You are correct about how Remake is different, but not about Overgrown Estate.

You Chapel a Copper + Overgrown Estate. Put them both into the trash. Now it's time for when-trashed stuff. You could resolve a Market Square from hand first, or Overgrown Estate. After Overgrown Estate is trashed, you can still resolve a Market Square, including one you just drew.

Makes sense.  So the within-sentence vs. in-between-sentences thing seems to apply with the triggers, with Remake being the 1 exception.  At least how I interpret things.

While this is potentially correct, it's also not really a useful way to think about it. The sentence structure is not what determines the behavior; it just happens to coincide in most cases. The important things to look at are atomic actions. Trash X is atomic (indivisible; nothing can happen after some part but before the rest) even if X is more than one card. Separate instructions to trash a card are not atomic. So "trash your hand" happens all at once and you can't use a reaction halfway through. Even if physically you move the cards to the trash one at a time, the action overall is atomic. In contrast "Do this twice: Trash a card from your hand; gain a card costing exactly $1 more than the trashed card" is two separate trash instructions regardless of the number of sentences. The hypothetical card "Trash a card and trash another card" is different from Steward's "Trash two cards" because the former trashes each card individually, allowing reactions between whereas the latter does not. So with the first card you could trash OE, draw estate, trash estate, but with Steward you cannot.

PPE: partially ninja'd by eHalc. I'll just leave this here in case this longer explanation is useful as opposed to just confusing.

[AJD]

Another good comparison point is with gaining. Per the rules, multiple cards are always gained one at a time, but multiple cards can be trashed or discarded simultaneously if so instructed. So if you're instructed to "gain two cards" (e.g., Stonemason), on-gain effects activate for each card one at a time as it's gained, but if you're instructed to "trash two cards", on-trash effects only activate once both cards are in the trash. It's not a question of sentence structure; it's a question of how trashing vs. gaining works.