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[GendoIkari]

So we know that Champion and Teacher are the highest level of the Traveler cards. Meaning that they have a cost of $6*, and to get one, you have to buy a $2, and then go through 4 shuffles of playing each previous iteration. All this means that these cards can be very powerful, since you can never get one early. You'll have to shuffle your deck at least 4 times before getting one. And you can't speed this up with Royal Seal or Watchtower because the upgrades aren't "gained."

So anyway, what ideas to you have for what these cards might do?

[swedenman]

I hope at least one of them forms an unstoppable combo with Counting House.

"+1 Action; +3 Buys; Gain 32 Coppers and put your deck into your discard pile."

[LastFootnote]

Gendo, weren't you at the DC meet-up? I thought you already knew what these cards were.

[jsh357]

Gendo, weren't you at the DC meet-up? I thought you already knew what these cards were.

He just wants to laugh at peoples' bad ideas.  I know I do.

[ghostofmars]

All this means that these cards can be very powerful, since you can never get one early.

I would think rather the opposite. I guess that they will be rather weak for $6 so that you wouldn't usually buy them if they were in the supply. Instead of thinking of Champion as a tough to get $6, think of it as $2 that get's more powerful with every play.

[eHalcyon]

I kind of hope that Champion is trashed on play but spawns one or two new Pages to take her place.

[Arctic Penguin]

I can't pass up the chance for idle speculation even if it means being laughed at.

I think it would be neat if each level of Traveller has similar vanilla effects. The Page to Champion line could all be terminal silvers of increasing power that have a monetary theme and the Peasant to Teacher line could all be card drawers (or maybe cantrips) of increasing power that have a similar theme. They've had a life full of adventures, but deep down you can still see a little bit of the Page in that daring Champion. On the one hand, it makes sense to not have Travellers exchanged for other cards that play drastically different roles in your deck, that way you'd almost always want to exchange for the next best Traveller. On the other hand, if Travellers in the same line do play different roles then it adds some interesting decisions, like do I exchange away the only village or card draw or +Buy in the kingdom just to get to the strongest level.

[Titandrake]

I'll make a dumb guess and say Champion has "Gain a Victory card." somewhere on its text. Given that Hero gains an arbitrary Treasure, it's a bit more likely that DXV experimented with other unlimited gains. Given that some playtesters aren't super fond of Champion...a crazy effect like that could be the reason, since it may degenerate some games into a Champion race.

I mean Champion could also be a conqueror for the the flavor reasons, but that's not very compelling.

[TheOthin]

I'll make a dumb guess and say Champion has "Gain a Victory card." somewhere on its text. Given that Hero gains an arbitrary Treasure, it's a bit more likely that DXV experimented with other unlimited gains. Given that some playtesters aren't super fond of Champion...a crazy effect like that could be the reason, since it may degenerate some games into a Champion race.

I mean Champion could also be a conqueror for the the flavor reasons, but that's not very compelling.

Hmm. It'd be incredibly powerful in Colony games, but so would Hero, and in fact it'd be tough to persuade a player to upgrade a Hero in a Colony game.

That said, I'm wary because of Rebuild. We have a card already that can gobble up the strongest Victory cards without support from the rest of the Kingdom, and it's one of the most hated cards. I feel like DXV would be very hesitant to try that again unless he was certain it was reasonably kept in check this time.

[GendoIkari]

Gendo, weren't you at the DC meet-up? I thought you already knew what these cards were.

Yeah, that's why I'm not providing any of my own speculation. But I thought it would be interesting conversation to see what wild and strong card ideas people come up with.

[pacovf]

Gain an Action card.
Gain a card that is not in the Supply.
Trash a Supply pile.
Put your deck in your hand.
Look through your discard pile.
--
While this is in play, buying events does not cost a buy.
--
When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly 1$ more than it.
--
In games using this, add Inheritance to the Supply. This can be set aside by Inheritance.

[Jimmmmm]

One idea would be to have cards which are good for the time of game that you have them.
For example, Page is a trasher, and when you're done with trashing you get a Treasure Hunter which helps you gain and play Silvers, and then you get a Warrior which is maybe a discard or trashing attack which is strongest in the midgame, then Hero helps you really ramp up your economy in preparation for buying Provinces, and then maybe Champion helps you gain Provinces somehow.

[Titandrake]

Gendo, weren't you at the DC meet-up? I thought you already knew what these cards were.

Yeah, that's why I'm not providing any of my own speculation. But I thought it would be interesting conversation to see what wild and strong card ideas people come up with.

So, the more polite version of jsh's comment

I think gaining an arbitrary Victory card is reasonable. If it's terminal it's a bit harder to mass it. Although, it may need to be "gain a Province" to be balanced, and even that looks very dangerous when Throned. Especially because if that was the top end, you don't have to buy just 1 Page - you can buy a lot of Pages, and then on one shuffle your deck explodes with lots of Champions. It's hard to guess what effect is fair for requiring so many plays. I'll revise my guess to "gain a Province" or "set this aside, if you do gain a Victory card"

[managore]

What about something crazy:

Trash this card
Gain one victory card
Gain one treasure card

[Jimmmmm]

What about something crazy:

Trash this card
Gain one victory card
Gain one treasure card

The Champion retires, having earned herself a large amount of land and a small fortune.

[managore]

What about something crazy:

Trash this card
Gain one victory card
Gain one treasure card

The Champion retires, having earned herself a large amount of land and a small fortune.

Precisely! They come home with all their treasure.

[jaketheyak]

What about something crazy:

Trash this card
Gain one victory card
Gain one treasure card

What about instead of trashing the card, you exchange it for a victory card?
I figure that the number of Champion cards is going to be less than the number of available Pages, so exchanging allows you to upgrade another Page to the end of the line.

[Gherald]

If it's a one shot, returning to the traveller pile seems more likely than trashing

When I first saw Hero, I had the same generic "Gain a victory card" thought for Champion. Seems obvious and thematic, I figure something like it was tried out at some point (not necessarily as part of this Traveller series)

Before the previews, someone hinted at Champion being the bacon cheeseburger reference? No real idea what mechanic could be.  Maybe that had to do with the art used

[jsh357]

If it's a one shot, returning to the traveller pile seems more likely than trashing

When I first saw Hero, I had the same generic "Gain a victory card" thought for Champion. Seems obvious and thematic, I figure something like it was tried out at some point (not necessarily as part of this Traveller series)

Before the previews, someone hinted at Champion being the bacon cheeseburger reference? No real idea what mechanic could be.  Maybe that had to do with the art used

None of the testers have seen Champion's art.  To my knowledge, anyway.  Adam is just a very silly man.

[pst]

I kind of hope that Champion is trashed on play but spawns one or two new Pages to take her place.

I would rather think that that Teacher does the corresponding thing in the other chain, judging by the name.

[ConMan]

Hmm.

Gain an Action card.
---
While this is in play, when you gain an Action card, you may return this to the Champion pile. If you do, gain a Province.

Also, I assume the Bacon Cheeseburger thing is a reference to the upgrading - so I'd guess one of the upgrade routes was nicknamed something like Hambuger/Cheesburger/Bacon Cheeseburger/Bacon Double Cheeseburger (or maybe Royale with Cheese).

[eHalcyon]

I kind of hope that Champion is trashed on play but spawns one or two new Pages to take her place.

I would rather think that that Teacher does the corresponding thing in the other chain, judging by the name.

I thought about that, but I don't think the name works as well.  Champion falls in battle, leaving behind Pages to come into their own.  Teacher goes away (I guess retirement works better here than death?) and leaves behind... Peasants?  If the starting card in that chain was Student, I'd be more inclined to agree.

[Archetype]

From the Teasers:

- +$3, +$4, and +$5

Since it'll take a long time to fully upgrade the Page/Peasant, my guess is that the +$4 or +$5 is found on at least one of the Champion/Teacher.

[eHalcyon]

From the Teasers:

- +$3, +$4, and +$5

Since it'll take a long time to fully upgrade the Page/Peasant, my guess is that the +$4 or +$5 is found on at least one of the Champion/Teacher.

+$5 is already on Giant.

[Archetype]

From the Teasers:

- +$3, +$4, and +$5

Since it'll take a long time to fully upgrade the Page/Peasant, my guess is that the +$4 or +$5 is found on at least one of the Champion/Teacher.

+$5 is already on Giant.

You're right! I forgot about that.

[markusin]

If anything, it will be Teacher that has some sort of Action card gain effect. You know, the Teacher teaches others to do jobs, like Universities do. Remember? University? Gain an Action card costing up to $5?

Champion might be a more confrontational card. It might have an effect like "Name a Treasure card. Each other play <digs> until revealing the named card. He trashes that card. You may gain any or all of these trashed cards". The Hero doesn't care to be confrontational, but the Champion has to maintain her status by competing against others.

[pst]

If anything, it will be Teacher that has some sort of Action card gain effect. You know, the Teacher teaches others to do jobs, like Universities do. Remember? University? Gain an Action card costing up to $5?

Or maybe just "Gain an Action card", gaining King's Courts and Possessions easy as that?

[markusin]

If anything, it will be Teacher that has some sort of Action card gain effect. You know, the Teacher teaches others to do jobs, like Universities do. Remember? University? Gain an Action card costing up to $5?

Or maybe just "Gain an Action card", gaining King's Courts and Possessions easy as that?

Yeah that's what I'm thinking, just like Hero had unbounded treasure game. Although, Hero is at a level before Teacher.

[joel88s]

From the Teasers:

- +$3, +$4, and +$5

Since it'll take a long time to fully upgrade the Page/Peasant, my guess is that the +$4 or +$5 is found on at least one of the Champion/Teacher.

+$5 is already on Giant.

You're right! I forgot about that.

Don't feel bad, so does the Giant half the time.

[ephesos]

Teacher:
Gain an Action card from the Supply and play it.

Really powerful, but it has to do something better than just gaining the Action card, since by the time you'll get to play it, the game's probably almost over. Unless you have both good engine and/or strong trash, you're probably playing it every 2.5 turns or so, and you need to upgrade it 4 times to play it once. So you're really only getting like two Teacher plays out in most games.

Chapel Teacher is faster, so you could get a few more plays out, but something like Develop Teacher probably still only plays it two times. Also if Chapel's on the board, someone can probably end the game by just playing other cards.

[easwaran]

Remember that on a lot of boards there are no $6 or $7 actions, so University is often already +2 actions, Gain an Action, so Teacher needs to be better than that.

[LastFootnote]

Remember that on a lot of boards there are no $6 or $7 actions, so University is often already +2 actions, Gain an Action, so Teacher needs to be better than that.

I don't think this line of thinking holds. There's often no better Treasure than Gold, yet Hero exists despite Soothsayer.

[werothegreat]

Remember that on a lot of boards there are no $6 or $7 actions, so University is often already +2 actions, Gain an Action, so Teacher needs to be better than that.

I don't think this line of thinking holds. There's often no better Treasure than Gold, yet Hero exists despite Soothsayer.

But there are kingdom Treasures more often than $6+ Actions, and Hero can help Feodum.

[LastFootnote]

Remember that on a lot of boards there are no $6 or $7 actions, so University is often already +2 actions, Gain an Action, so Teacher needs to be better than that.

I don't think this line of thinking holds. There's often no better Treasure than Gold, yet Hero exists despite Soothsayer.

But there are kingdom Treasures more often than $6+ Actions, and Hero can help Feodum.

I think that's a stretch. Sometimes you'll want those Kingdom Treasures over Gold, but usually not. You're not gaining Loan or Talisman or even Quarry with your Hero. And if Hero is your Feodum enabler, you're gonna have a bad time.

[AJD]

Remember that on a lot of boards there are no $6 or $7 actions, so University is often already +2 actions, Gain an Action, so Teacher needs to be better than that.

I don't think this line of thinking holds. There's often no better Treasure than Gold, yet Hero exists despite Soothsayer.

…And Hero is better than Soothsayer (for some functions), since in addition to gaining a Gold it gives you +$2 right now, which Soothsayer doesn't do.

[easwaran]

Remember that on a lot of boards there are no $6 or $7 actions, so University is often already +2 actions, Gain an Action, so Teacher needs to be better than that.

I don't think this line of thinking holds. There's often no better Treasure than Gold, yet Hero exists despite Soothsayer.

…And Hero is better than Soothsayer (for some functions), since in addition to gaining a Gold it gives you +$2 right now, which Soothsayer doesn't do.

Furthermore, Hero and Soothsayer are both at the $5 price point, while University is in some sense a lot cheaper than Champion/Teacher, and also has the bonus +2 actions. But perhaps Teacher is +2 action, +$2, Gain an Action - that's certainly substantially stronger than University, even if there are no $6 or $7 actions.

[jaketheyak]

Hero might have a cost of $5, but it's not really at the same price point as Soothsayer.
You can't actually buy it for $5.
I think it's very difficult to compare costs between cards that are in the Supply and those that aren't, especially in the case of the Travellers.
How do you quantify the cost of playing a card a turn for three turns to get a Hero?

[Orange]

Champion
Return this to the Champion pile.  If you do, take any number of cards from the Supply with a total cost of no more than $15.  (You may not take any cards with a cost of $0.)

[blaisepascal]

Champion
Return this to the supply.  If you do, take any number of cards from the Supply with a total cost of no more than $15.  (You may not take any cards with a cost of $0.)

Champion is not in the supply.

[scott_pilgrim]

Remember that on a lot of boards there are no $6 or $7 actions, so University is often already +2 actions, Gain an Action, so Teacher needs to be better than that.

I don't think this line of thinking holds. There's often no better Treasure than Gold, yet Hero exists despite Soothsayer.

1. Hero can often be better than Soothsayer (maybe?).  It gives you +$2 now and doesn't make the opponent draw (in exchange for not giving them a Curse).

2. More importantly, Hero isn't the last card in the chain, so it doesn't need to make sure it's strictly better than cheaper cards.  Maybe the whole point of getting Hero is to upgrade it to Champion.  If Champion were worse than Soothsayer, that would be bad.  I think that's the much more appropriate comparison.

[Orange]

Champion
Return this to the supply.  If you do, take any number of cards from the Supply with a total cost of no more than $15.  (You may not take any cards with a cost of $0.)

Champion is not in the supply.

Fair enough.  Fixed.

[shmeur]

Is there any possibility that Champion and Teacher may both involve a Champion/Teacher token?  It at least would make sense for Teacher to teach a supply pile or something.  I don't know.

[GendoIkari]

So in my opinion, Champion is a lot stronger than any of the guesses here. That's mostly just based on speculation; I've only played it once.

[TheOthin]

I was not expecting them to have those kinds of permanent effects, but it's very fitting. And also suits the last guess, except Teacher uses existing tokens and Champion gives a different sort of benefit as a second permanent Duration.

Teacher seems very flexible; its Reserve status seems mostly like a downside but it does mean you get to make a decision based on what will immediately benefit you. Interesting that it can't stack tokens, but the events that place those tokens can.

[GendoIkari]

I was not expecting them to have those kinds of permanent effects, but it's very fitting. And also suits the last guess, except Teacher uses existing tokens and Champion gives a different sort of benefit as a second permanent Duration.

Teacher seems very flexible; its Reserve status seems mostly like a downside but it does mean you get to make a decision based on what will immediately benefit you. Interesting that it can't stack tokens, but the events that place those tokens can.

Yeah, my feeling was that no stacking tokens weakens it a good bit, which must mean that it was way too strong without the restriction (just assuming that the first idea didn't have it). The reserve does seem that it's mostly just meant to delay your token even more than it already is. So it didn't sound nearly as strong to me as Champion, but who knows.

[TheOthin]

I mean that you can't have Teacher put a token on a pile that already has a different token.

Teacher is definitely slower to get its benefit; Champion does everything in one play while Teacher can take as many as four to take full effect. So it'll probably better suit longer games, like Prince.

The Reserve status does stop you from getting the benefit the turn you play Teacher.

[markusin]

I mean that you can't have Teacher put a token on a pile that already has a different token.

Teacher is definitely slower to get its benefit; Champion does everything in one play while Teacher can take as many as four to take full effect. So it'll probably better suit longer games, like Prince.

The Reserve status does stop you from getting the benefit the turn you play Teacher.

More than that, you can't put it back on the tavern mat the turn you call it. So, you can only add another token 2 turns later with the same Teacher. I think you'll have to be lucky to have a game last long enough to get 2 tokens moved through Teacher.

[shmeur]

I was so wrong haha.  Am I the only person immensely pleased that the Teacher line is male while the Champion line is female?  Reversing gender roles ftw.

[pacovf]

I think the reserve/start-of-turn thing has more to do with helping tracking and less to do with power.

[GendoIkari]

I think the reserve/start-of-turn thing has more to do with helping tracking and less to do with power.

What do you mean? What tracking issue could there be if you simply got the effect when you played teacher?

[pacovf]

Especially for +buy or +$, by the time you reach your buy phase, it might be difficult to know which cards were giving what if you moved the tokens mid turn. With the start-of-turn reserve mechanic, the tokens don't move during your turn, so you just have to count how many cards of whatever kind you've played.

[eHalcyon]

I think the reserve/start-of-turn thing has more to do with helping tracking and less to do with power.

What do you mean? What tracking issue could there be if you simply got the effect when you played teacher?

I play a few Pearl Divers, then Teacher (putting +$1 token on Pearl Diver), then a few more Pearl Divers.  Wait, how many of those Pearl Divers gave me money?

But actually, I think this is a small tracking issue.  You can easily keep a running tally, or just be a bit more ordered about how you put cards into your play area (e.g. all the Pearl Divers to the left of this Teacher gave no money, all the Divers to the right gave +$1).  I think the Reserve thing is to slow it down a bit but also to give you the chance to take advantage of the flexibility (e.g. my +1 action token is on Smithy, but I somehow drew a hand full of Woodcutters.  Maybe I will call Teacher to make my Woodcutters non-terminal).

[GendoIkari]

Ok, I get it now. But it does seem a lot more minor than tracking which Pawns gave you money or which Stewards gave you money, etc. I mean, moving a token is going to be pretty rare I assume (you put it on the pile that it was best to put it on; you don't want to be moving it usually). Playing it mid-turn would be possible, but I wouldn't think it's much of a concern. Makin it a reserve simply lowers its power.

[AdamH]

Also, I assume the Bacon Cheeseburger thing is a reference to the upgrading - so I'd guess one of the upgrade routes was nicknamed something like Hambuger/Cheesburger/Bacon Cheeseburger/Bacon Double Cheeseburger (or maybe Royale with Cheese).

You're all very cute.

I was at Dairy Queen and they had a sign advertising their Bacon Cheeseburger. I thought to myself "wouldn't it be funny if there was a Dominion card called Bacon Cheeseburger?"

[Elestan]

Champion: Action-Duration

+1 Action

For the rest of the game, when another player plays an Attack, it doesn't affect you, and when you play an Action, +1 Action.

Holy...

[Elestan]

Teacher:  Action-Reserve

Put this on your Tavern mat
------
At the start of your turn, you may call this, to move your +1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy, or +1$ token to an Action Supply pile you have no tokens on.