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[AJD]

\The Caravan Guard reaction is interesting in that it might not actually defend you against anything.  It just gets you +$1 earlier and makes it less likely for the card to miss the reshuffle.  On its own, I can't think of any attack that it actually defends against.

Well, Bridge Troll.

[eHalcyon]

The Caravan Guard reaction is interesting in that it might not actually defend you against anything.  It just gets you +$1 earlier and makes it less likely for the card to miss the reshuffle.  On its own, I can't think of any attack that it actually defends against.

Well, Bridge Troll.

Sort of?  But you also lose the +$1 you would have had on the next turn.

[TheOthin]

Yeah I don't get Caravan Guard conceptually. "If an opponent plays an Attack, this gets to function as an actual Peddler rather than as a delayed one." It comes off as really incoherent.

I guess as a cantrip it's good to see what it'll draw before deciding for discard attacks but still.

[werothegreat]

Yeah I don't get Caravan Guard conceptually. "If an opponent plays an Attack, this gets to function as an actual Peddler rather than as a delayed one." It comes off as really incoherent.

I guess as a cantrip it's good to see what it'll draw before deciding for discard attacks but still.

It also lets see the next card in your deck, so you don't have to go back and forth on whether or not you want to discard this cantrip.  Just play it!  In my mind, they're also better in multiples.

"I play Militia."

"I play five Caravan Guards!  Think I'll buy a Province next turn."

EDIT: You can also put a +1 Card token on it and increase your handsize!

[platykurtic]

Yeah I don't get Caravan Guard conceptually. "If an opponent plays an Attack, this gets to function as an actual Peddler rather than as a delayed one." It comes off as really incoherent.

I guess as a cantrip it's good to see what it'll draw before deciding for discard attacks but still.

Your baseline peddler +1card,+1action,+1$ card is conceptually priced at 4$, and caravan guard only costs three, so it makes sense that a 3$ card would be less powerful. As far as I can see it's just a delayed peddler that missed reshuffles, but becomes a bargain full peddler when attacks start flying. I suppose getting to play it early gives you a bit more information if you get hit by a militia or something before your next turn.

[scott_pilgrim]

Yeah I don't get Caravan Guard conceptually. "If an opponent plays an Attack, this gets to function as an actual Peddler rather than as a delayed one." It comes off as really incoherent.

I guess as a cantrip it's good to see what it'll draw before deciding for discard attacks but still.

This is how I feel about it too.  The idea of "play a card in reaction to an Attack" is cool and obviously it's tricky to execute, but I don't feel like Caravan Guard really does it well.  It just doesn't feel like it will be that exciting to play it a turn early.  I think it would have made more sense if it had been terminal, so you're getting an extra action that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

[eHalcyon]

Yeah I don't get Caravan Guard conceptually. "If an opponent plays an Attack, this gets to function as an actual Peddler rather than as a delayed one." It comes off as really incoherent.

I guess as a cantrip it's good to see what it'll draw before deciding for discard attacks but still.

That's exactly what I said.   I guess nobody read it because it was in a post with a bunch of other comments:

The Caravan Guard reaction is interesting in that it might not actually defend you against anything.  It just gets you +$1 earlier and makes it less likely for the card to miss the reshuffle.  On its own, I can't think of any attack that it actually defends against.  Against discard attacks, it doesn't have the same drawback as other cantrips.  It helps a bit against Minion.  Not sure what else.

Yeah I don't get Caravan Guard conceptually. "If an opponent plays an Attack, this gets to function as an actual Peddler rather than as a delayed one." It comes off as really incoherent.

I guess as a cantrip it's good to see what it'll draw before deciding for discard attacks but still.

It also lets see the next card in your deck, so you don't have to go back and forth on whether or not you want to discard this cantrip.  Just play it!  In my mind, they're also better in multiples.

"I play Militia."

"I play five Caravan Guards!  Think I'll buy a Province next turn."

EDIT: You can also put a +1 Card token on it and increase your handsize!

OK, I guess if you have a whole bunch of them then it's a bigger difference.  The +1 Card token doesn't really work just because you could have gotten that bonus anyway by playing the card on your own turn.  It actually makes the reaction a little worse against most hand-size attacks because you'll still be discarding down to a fixed number.  It would be helpful against Torturer though!

[Gherald]

A cost Caravan is a delayed cost Lab

A cost Caravan Guard is a delayed cost (conceptual) Peddler

Seems legit.

[TheOthin]

Yeah I don't get Caravan Guard conceptually. "If an opponent plays an Attack, this gets to function as an actual Peddler rather than as a delayed one." It comes off as really incoherent.

I guess as a cantrip it's good to see what it'll draw before deciding for discard attacks but still.

Your baseline peddler +1card,+1action,+1$ card is conceptually priced at 4$, and caravan guard only costs three, so it makes sense that a 3$ card would be less powerful. As far as I can see it's just a delayed peddler that missed reshuffles, but becomes a bargain full peddler when attacks start flying. I suppose getting to play it early gives you a bit more information if you get hit by a militia or something before your next turn.

The "$3 weaker Peddler" part makes perfect sense. It's the "weakness goes away in the presence of Attacks" thing I'm hung up on.

Yeah I don't get Caravan Guard conceptually. "If an opponent plays an Attack, this gets to function as an actual Peddler rather than as a delayed one." It comes off as really incoherent.

I guess as a cantrip it's good to see what it'll draw before deciding for discard attacks but still.

That's exactly what I said.   I guess nobody read it because it was in a post with a bunch of other comments:

Yeah I was agreeing with you. :p

[eHalcyon]

@Gherald, did you actually go to the effort of dropping in images for the coin costs, or do you have a browser extension or something?  Either way, well done.

@TheOthin, I think the hang-up is that this reaction specifically responds to attacks, but the response doesn't seem to actually help against attacks (minus a few special cases).  I'll get over it though.

[Gherald]

It's the "weakness goes away in the presence of Attacks" thing I'm hung up on.

Well .. when you are attacked, aren't you gonna be happy that you already hired a guard? That's foresight, man.  He gets to do something productive this turn rather than laze around. So you get your GDP boost now and well that's

[Gherald]

did you actually go to the effort of dropping in images for the coin costs, or do you have a browser extension or something?  Either way, well done.

Heh, I was bored one night and dropped 30 lines of javascript..



Works just as you'd expect

[AJD]

@TheOthin, I think the hang-up is that this reaction specifically responds to attacks, but the response doesn't seem to actually help against attacks (minus a few special cases).  I'll get over it though.

I mean, back when Guilds came out we were all wondering "Why isn't there a Reaction that gives you a coin token when someone else plays an Attack"? That wouldn't have directly countered any Attacks either, but it seemed like a reasonable idea. This is more or less that Reaction, just without the coin token.

[eHalcyon]

@TheOthin, I think the hang-up is that this reaction specifically responds to attacks, but the response doesn't seem to actually help against attacks (minus a few special cases).  I'll get over it though.

I mean, back when Guilds came out we were all wondering "Why isn't there a Reaction that gives you a coin token when someone else plays an Attack"? That wouldn't have directly countered any Attacks either, but it seemed like a reasonable idea. This is more or less that Reaction, just without the coin token.

The thing is, I would also have questioned that reaction if it were something like,

Oven Mitt
$5 - Action-Reaction
+1 Card
+1 Action
Take a coin token.
When another player plays an Attack card, you may play this from your hand.
(+1 Action has no effect if it's not your turn.)

(It's called Oven Mitt because that's a Baker's Guard.)

Caravan Guard reminds me of that.  Whether you play it on your turn or from the reaction, it doesn't seem so different.  Getting the coin earlier seems like a very minor thing, but it probably matters more than I'm giving it credit for.

[Gherald]

Hmm, wouldn't the actual analog be a duration baker that gives you the token on your next turn and one that has a reaction to get it a turn earlier?

Your Oven Mitt example isn't actually different from a regular Baker other than the reaction, whereas Caravan Guard is different from a Peddler-variant in an additional way (it's a duration, like Caravan vs. Lab)

[eHalcyon]

Hmm, wouldn't the actual analog be a duration baker that gives you the token on your next turn and one that has a reaction to get it a turn earlier?

Your Oven Mitt example isn't actually different from a regular Baker other than the reaction, whereas Caravan Guard is different from a Peddler-variant in an additional way (it's a duration, like Caravan vs. Lab)

I don't mean to compare Oven Mitt with Baker, just the action with the reaction.  Also, my example is exaggerated.  I did note that the reaction of Caravan Guard is different from the action in that it is more immediate -- you get the next turn effect sooner than if you just held onto it to play on your turn.  My point is that it seems to be very similar, whereas Oven Mitt's reaction and action are even closer to equivalent (though there are still some differences).

[Gherald]

My point is that it seems to be very similar

Well, Caravan seems to be very similar to Lab, right? Yet we know they play differently, and that one can get away with costing less

[Jimmmmm]

I guess the thing that Caravan does when attacked is let you decide whether you want your +$1 this turn or next turn. Obviously a lot of the time you'll want it this turn simply because earlier is better, although if you've otherwise got $3 and will buy a Silver regardless or $5 and you'll buy a $5-cost regardless you'd rather delay it. It also encourages deck-tracking, since what you'll draw with obviously have an effect on what you can spend. So yeah it's generally going to be worse than a cantrip coin, but it'll also require more skill to get the best use out of it, in a similar though lesser way than a coin token is better than a coin.

I don't understand how it 'Guards' anything though.

[Gherald]

It's an immediately-effective part of your deck when you're under attack, otherwise it just kind of lazes around for awhile

If that's not a guard, what is?

[Jimmmmm]

Something that actually protects you from an attack in some way?

[Gherald]

Well this guard is part of your realm and it just so happens he was gainfully employed for some during that attack.

I'm sorry he wasn't able to entirely stop all those marauders from pillaging one of your markets.  He's just one guard, you know?

But gainfully employed one - like that peddler you're always buying comic books from. (Seriously man, another copy of Ultimate Wolverine?)

[blueblimp]

I think the doubters are underestimating how weak Caravan-Guard-without-reaction would be. It'd be quite weak. Caravan is good but probably not the best $4, despite drawing a card at the beginning of turn being very strong because it increases deck reliability. $1 is much worse than +1 card in most decks, and getting it at the beginning of turn doesn't help reliability at all. Caravan-Guard-without-reaction being a cantrip, you'd still put it in a lot of decks if you don't want more Silver, but that's true of Spy too and that's considered one of the worst $4s. (Keep in mind that $3 and $4 are very similar price points, so it's legit to compare Caravan Guard to $4s.)

If you expect to get hit by a discard attack every turn though, Caravan Guard becomes way better than Peddler, because of http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12863.0. If you're being reliably attacked by a non-discard attack, Caravan Guard is still often better than Peddler, for a few reasons: it might trigger a reshuffle before you receive a curse; and it facilitates start-of-turn from-hand effects (Amulet, Ratcatcher).

[Gherald]

Caravan-Guard-without-reaction being a cantrip, you'd still put it in a lot of decks if you don't want more Silver, but that's true of Spy too and that's considered one of the worst $4s.

Well CG directly adds to your economy whereas Spy only adds a tiny amount of sifting.

I think it's wrong to call CG without the reaction "quite weak".  It looks better than Silver and Oasis in situations where you can't draw your deck.

But the reaction is nice, useful, thematic, adds good flavor, etc.  A solid addition to the game.

[eHalcyon]

My point is that it seems to be very similar

Well, Caravan seems to be very similar to Lab, right? Yet we know they play differently, and that one can get away with costing less

Again, that is not what I'm getting at.  I'm just saying that it feels weird to me that the action and the reaction are so very similar.  They are certainly different, and I mentioned a few ways that they are different even when I first commented about it.  It was not a comment on card strength or balance or price.

And Jimmmm hits it on the head too, part of it is also that this is a reaction specifically to an attack that feels unrelated to the attack (unlike all other such reactions), and the "Guard" name just exacerbates that thematic disconnect.  (PPE: I don't think it's thematic or adds good flavour.  The opposite, actually.)

The length of this discussion is making it seem like a bigger deal than it is.  When I first commented on it, I didn't even say it was a bad thing.  I just said that it was interesting.

[Orange]

The rules are up! I guess Pacific time has its perks occasionally.

EDIT: The wiki now has most of the information and low res images from the rules if you're interested in browsing the cards.

Pacific time?! That's my time zone! What island are you on?!

Also, it's ironic my picture is full of snow and your name is Arctic Penguin.

That's not irony.