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[Awaclus]

Also, a Moat Reserve would only be called when an opponent played an Attack, so there would be some games where it just sit sadly on your Tavern mat, or not be bought at all.  At least Moat can draw you cards.

It could be a Victory card.

But then how would it get onto your mat?

In addition to being an Action card and a Reserve card.

[LastFootnote]

Also, a Moat Reserve would only be called when an opponent played an Attack, so there would be some games where it just sit sadly on your Tavern mat, or not be bought at all.  At least Moat can draw you cards.

It could be a Victory card.

But then how would it get onto your mat?

In addition to being an Action card and a Reserve card.

That's three kinds of timing, requiring two dividing lines. Not gonna happen.

[Awaclus]

Also, a Moat Reserve would only be called when an opponent played an Attack, so there would be some games where it just sit sadly on your Tavern mat, or not be bought at all.  At least Moat can draw you cards.

It could be a Victory card.

But then how would it get onto your mat?

In addition to being an Action card and a Reserve card.

That's three kinds of timing, requiring two dividing lines. Not gonna happen.

Then it can be a Treasure instead of Action.

[GendoIkari]

The thing about standard Reserves is that they get called on your own turn, when they can go into play as usual. A Reserve you could call on opponents' turns would probably have to be classified as an Action-Reserve-Duration or Action-Reserve-Reaction.

Duplicate is a Reserve you can call on your opponent's turn.

Oh, I guess it is. So in this situation, you discard it from play during your opponent's cleanup phase?

Hmm, this is actually a good question. Never came up in my Duplicate games. I'm thinking that it will stay in play until the end of your own turn, because I think in general the cleanup phase only affects the player whose turn it currently is. I mean, obviously the other players don't discard their hand and draw 5 new cards, so why would they discard stuff from play?

[LastFootnote]

Also, a Moat Reserve would only be called when an opponent played an Attack, so there would be some games where it just sit sadly on your Tavern mat, or not be bought at all.  At least Moat can draw you cards.

It could be a Victory card.

But then how would it get onto your mat?

In addition to being an Action card and a Reserve card.

That's three kinds of timing, requiring two dividing lines. Not gonna happen.

Then it can be a Treasure instead of Action.

That's still three kinds of timing.

[Awaclus]

Also, a Moat Reserve would only be called when an opponent played an Attack, so there would be some games where it just sit sadly on your Tavern mat, or not be bought at all.  At least Moat can draw you cards.

It could be a Victory card.

But then how would it get onto your mat?

In addition to being an Action card and a Reserve card.

That's three kinds of timing, requiring two dividing lines. Not gonna happen.

Then it can be a Treasure instead of Action.

That's still three kinds of timing.

Harem doesn't have a dividing line.

[GendoIkari]

Also, a Moat Reserve would only be called when an opponent played an Attack, so there would be some games where it just sit sadly on your Tavern mat, or not be bought at all.  At least Moat can draw you cards.

It could be a Victory card.

But then how would it get onto your mat?

In addition to being an Action card and a Reserve card.

That's three kinds of timing, requiring two dividing lines. Not gonna happen.

Then it can be a Treasure instead of Action.

That's still three kinds of timing.

Harem doesn't have a dividing line.

It's supposed to.

[Donald X.]

Duplicate is a Reserve you can call on your opponent's turn.

Oh, I guess it is. So in this situation, you discard it from play during your opponent's cleanup phase?

Yes.

[GendoIkari]

Duplicate is a Reserve you can call on your opponent's turn.

Oh, I guess it is. So in this situation, you discard it from play during your opponent's cleanup phase?

Yes.

Is this a new rule that will be introduced in Adventures, or is it supposed to follow from the base rules? Because it seems to me that the base rules' description of the cleanup phase sound like only the current player performs any cleanup.

[AJD]

Duplicate is a Reserve you can call on your opponent's turn.

Oh, I guess it is. So in this situation, you discard it from play during your opponent's cleanup phase?

Yes.

Is this a new rule that will be introduced in Adventures, or is it supposed to follow from the base rules? Because it seems to me that the base rules' description of the cleanup phase sound like only the current player performs any cleanup.

My guess is it follows from the generalization of the Duration rule—the card is being cleaned up on the last turn on which it does something. But that generalization hasn't per se been stated in a rule book yet.

[sudgy]

Duplicate is a Reserve you can call on your opponent's turn.

Oh, I guess it is. So in this situation, you discard it from play during your opponent's cleanup phase?

Yes.

Is this a new rule that will be introduced in Adventures, or is it supposed to follow from the base rules? Because it seems to me that the base rules' description of the cleanup phase sound like only the current player performs any cleanup.

My guess is it follows from the generalization of the Duration rule—the card is being cleaned up on the last turn on which it does something. But that generalization hasn't per se been stated in a rule book yet.

It has been stated in an online ruling, though.  (See: multiple Outposts in one turn)

[GendoIkari]

Duplicate is a Reserve you can call on your opponent's turn.

Oh, I guess it is. So in this situation, you discard it from play during your opponent's cleanup phase?

Yes.

Is this a new rule that will be introduced in Adventures, or is it supposed to follow from the base rules? Because it seems to me that the base rules' description of the cleanup phase sound like only the current player performs any cleanup.

My guess is it follows from the generalization of the Duration rule—the card is being cleaned up on the last turn on which it does something. But that generalization hasn't per se been stated in a rule book yet.

It has been stated in an online ruling, though.  (See: multiple Outposts in one turn)

But that rule has always only applied to Duration cards. The rule for all other cards has been simply that at the end of your turn, you clean up all cards you played that turn (See Possession, which does something next turn, but is cleaned up this turn).

[AJD]

Duplicate is a Reserve you can call on your opponent's turn.

Oh, I guess it is. So in this situation, you discard it from play during your opponent's cleanup phase?

Yes.

Is this a new rule that will be introduced in Adventures, or is it supposed to follow from the base rules? Because it seems to me that the base rules' description of the cleanup phase sound like only the current player performs any cleanup.

My guess is it follows from the generalization of the Duration rule—the card is being cleaned up on the last turn on which it does something. But that generalization hasn't per se been stated in a rule book yet.

It has been stated in an online ruling, though.  (See: multiple Outposts in one turn)

Man, don't quote Outpost rulings on the question of cleaning up a card on the last turn on which does something—Outpost is the exception to that rule, staying in play through a turn on which it doesn't do anything.

[sudgy]

Duplicate is a Reserve you can call on your opponent's turn.

Oh, I guess it is. So in this situation, you discard it from play during your opponent's cleanup phase?

Yes.

Is this a new rule that will be introduced in Adventures, or is it supposed to follow from the base rules? Because it seems to me that the base rules' description of the cleanup phase sound like only the current player performs any cleanup.

My guess is it follows from the generalization of the Duration rule—the card is being cleaned up on the last turn on which it does something. But that generalization hasn't per se been stated in a rule book yet.

It has been stated in an online ruling, though.  (See: multiple Outposts in one turn)

But that rule has always only applied to Duration cards. The rule for all other cards has been simply that at the end of your turn, you clean up all cards you played that turn (See Possession, which does something next turn, but is cleaned up this turn).

I wouldn't be surprised if Possession is like this only because the rulebook says so.  If it wasn't there I would think Donald would say it gets discarded at the end of the Possession turn.

Duplicate is a Reserve you can call on your opponent's turn.

Oh, I guess it is. So in this situation, you discard it from play during your opponent's cleanup phase?

Yes.

Is this a new rule that will be introduced in Adventures, or is it supposed to follow from the base rules? Because it seems to me that the base rules' description of the cleanup phase sound like only the current player performs any cleanup.

My guess is it follows from the generalization of the Duration rule—the card is being cleaned up on the last turn on which it does something. But that generalization hasn't per se been stated in a rule book yet.

It has been stated in an online ruling, though.  (See: multiple Outposts in one turn)

Man, don't quote Outpost rulings on the question of cleaning up a card on the last turn on which does something—Outpost is the exception to that rule, staying in play through a turn on which it doesn't do anything.

Outpost isn't done at the cleanup phase, so it's not an exception.  Next turn it doesn't do anything, but the rule isn't if it's doing anything next turn, it's if it's doing anything still at cleanup.

[AJD]

Man, don't quote Outpost rulings on the question of cleaning up a card on the last turn on which does something—Outpost is the exception to that rule, staying in play through a turn on which it doesn't do anything.

Outpost isn't done at the cleanup phase, so it's not an exception.  Next turn it doesn't do anything, but the rule isn't if it's doing anything next turn, it's if it's doing anything still at cleanup.

The rule in the rule book is that you discard Duration cards from play in "the Clean-up Phase of the last turn in which it does something".

[Donald X.]

Duplicate is a Reserve you can call on your opponent's turn.

Oh, I guess it is. So in this situation, you discard it from play during your opponent's cleanup phase?

Yes.

Is this a new rule that will be introduced in Adventures, or is it supposed to follow from the base rules? Because it seems to me that the base rules' description of the cleanup phase sound like only the current player performs any cleanup.

It's in the FAQ for Duplicate. The intention was always that a card got discarded at the end of the last turn it did something, whether or not it was your turn. However discarding cards in other players' turns was intentionally dodged in Seaside. For Duplicate it was clear that it raised the question, and my feeling was, a typical player, Duplicating on someone else's turn, was not moving Duplicate into play, they were moving it straight to the discard pile. So I went with the ruling I already wanted.

[sudgy]

Man, don't quote Outpost rulings on the question of cleaning up a card on the last turn on which does something—Outpost is the exception to that rule, staying in play through a turn on which it doesn't do anything.

Outpost isn't done at the cleanup phase, so it's not an exception.  Next turn it doesn't do anything, but the rule isn't if it's doing anything next turn, it's if it's doing anything still at cleanup.

The rule in the rule book is that you discard Duration cards from play in "the Clean-up Phase of the last turn in which it does something".

Your Outposts that didn't give you the extra turn are still trying to give you an extra turn, so at clean-up they aren't done doing things.  Then, at the end of your turn they try to give you an extra turn and fail.  They get discarded at the end of the next cleanup (usually the other player's).

[Throwaway_bicycling]

The thing about standard Reserves is that they get called on your own turn, when they can go into play as usual. A Reserve you could call on opponents' turns would probably have to be classified as an Action-Reserve-Duration or Action-Reserve-Reaction.

Duplicate is a Reserve you can call on your opponent's turn.

Okay; I'll bit. Why isn't Duplicate an Action-Reserve-Reaction, then?

Also, I just realized that under circumstance that might not be so contrived you could have Duplicates in your Tavern that could be called and end up three-piling your opponent on his or her turn. Did that ever come up in play testing?

[AJD]

The thing about standard Reserves is that they get called on your own turn, when they can go into play as usual. A Reserve you could call on opponents' turns would probably have to be classified as an Action-Reserve-Duration or Action-Reserve-Reaction.

Duplicate is a Reserve you can call on your opponent's turn.

Okay; I'll bit. Why isn't Duplicate an Action-Reserve-Reaction, then?

Because what defines Reactions isn't that they have effects on someone else's turn, but that they have effects when in your hand (or, in the case of Tunnel, when in your discard pile). Duplicate has an effect when it's on your Tavern mat, face-up for all the world to see.

[werothegreat]

The thing about standard Reserves is that they get called on your own turn, when they can go into play as usual. A Reserve you could call on opponents' turns would probably have to be classified as an Action-Reserve-Duration or Action-Reserve-Reaction.

Duplicate is a Reserve you can call on your opponent's turn.

Okay; I'll bit. Why isn't Duplicate an Action-Reserve-Reaction, then?

Because what defines Reactions isn't that they have effects on someone else's turn, but that they have effects when in your hand (or, in the case of Tunnel, when in your discard pile). Duplicate has an effect when it's on your Tavern mat, face-up for all the world to see.

Now I'm imagining someone with two Bridge Trolls in play playing a Swindler, hitting my Peddler, being forced to give me a Province, and then I call four Duplicates and end the game.

[Throwaway_bicycling]

The thing about standard Reserves is that they get called on your own turn, when they can go into play as usual. A Reserve you could call on opponents' turns would probably have to be classified as an Action-Reserve-Duration or Action-Reserve-Reaction.

Duplicate is a Reserve you can call on your opponent's turn.

Okay; I'll bit. Why isn't Duplicate an Action-Reserve-Reaction, then?

Because what defines Reactions isn't that they have effects on someone else's turn, but that they have effects when in your hand (or, in the case of Tunnel, when in your discard pile). Duplicate has an effect when it's on your Tavern mat, face-up for all the world to see.

So that's a quality answer...except for the Tunnel waffling bit. So if a reaction can be triggered by a card that is being placed into your discard pile, it is not clear to me why this disallows something going into play from your Tavern mat being a reaction. That said...it being a Reserve might basically cover the case, anyway. And, to date, there are no cards that allow you to react to reactions specifically...I think?...so maybe it's just a metaphysical question, and metaphysics doesn't really pay.

[enfynet]

Okay; I'll bit. Why isn't Duplicate an Action-Reserve-Reaction, then?

I'm going to go with this:

A "Reserve" is a "Duration-Reaction" that stays out until you choose to use the "Reaction" part.

In theory...

[Donald X.]

So that's a quality answer...except for the Tunnel waffling bit. So if a reaction can be triggered by a card that is being placed into your discard pile, it is not clear to me why this disallows something going into play from your Tavern mat being a reaction. That said...it being a Reserve might basically cover the case, anyway. And, to date, there are no cards that allow you to react to reactions specifically...I think?...so maybe it's just a metaphysical question, and metaphysics doesn't really pay.

"Reaction" isn't "this has an ability that functions other than when played." Obv. Mint, Catacombs, etc. have such abilities and are not Reactions.

Instead the idea to "Reaction" is to use color to help remind you that a card is usable at an unusual time. When-gain and when-trashed already involve the card, so we don't need to draw attention to the card. But Moat is just a bystander to the attack; we can help you out by calling attention to it.

Tunnel being discarded involves Tunnel, but it seemed good to call attention to it anyway.

Reserve cards as a group function at unusual times and are a special color. They've got this covered.

[GendoIkari]

So that's a quality answer...except for the Tunnel waffling bit. So if a reaction can be triggered by a card that is being placed into your discard pile, it is not clear to me why this disallows something going into play from your Tavern mat being a reaction. That said...it being a Reserve might basically cover the case, anyway. And, to date, there are no cards that allow you to react to reactions specifically...I think?...so maybe it's just a metaphysical question, and metaphysics doesn't really pay.

"Reaction" isn't "this has an ability that functions other than when played." Obv. Mint, Catacombs, etc. have such abilities and are not Reactions.

Instead the idea to "Reaction" is to use color to help remind you that a card is usable at an unusual time. When-gain and when-trashed already involve the card, so we don't need to draw attention to the card. But Moat is just a bystander to the attack; we can help you out by calling attention to it.

Tunnel being discarded involves Tunnel, but it seemed good to call attention to it anyway.

Reserve cards as a group function at unusual times and are a special color. They've got this covered.

Was there ever a thought to not having reserve be a card type? Unless I've missed something in one of the new cards, there's nothing that makes reference to the type, nor do they have any special rules associated with them. So they would function just fine without the type. Even the different color isn't necessarily much of a necessary reminder, because those cards are sitting there on your Tavern Mat anyway; they aren't mixed in with other cards like reactions are (except perhaps some Coppers from Miser).

[AJD]

Okay; I'll bit. Why isn't Duplicate an Action-Reserve-Reaction, then?

Because what defines Reactions isn't that they have effects on someone else's turn, but that they have effects when in your hand (or, in the case of Tunnel, when in your discard pile). Duplicate has an effect when it's on your Tavern mat, face-up for all the world to see.

So that's a quality answer...except for the Tunnel waffling bit. So if a reaction can be triggered by a card that is being placed into your discard pile, it is not clear to me why this disallows something going into play from your Tavern mat being a reaction.

In addition to what Donald said: cards you discard, like cards in your hand, aren't automatically visible to your opponents. Cards on your Tavern mat are face-up and visible.