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[ashersky]

I mean, masons are a weird problem to have for scum - on the one hand, killing one ICs the other, but on the other hand you really want to eliminate them as they can be a strong Town presence.

The damnable thing is that if ash was one of the claimed masons I could totally see this gambit, but I'm not sure I can see it from dede/hockey (no offence to anyone intended in this statement).

On the flip side, scum will leave ICs alive if they have bad reads.

[ashersky]

I'll try to lay out the case in my next post.  I'm on iPad so I can't type as fast.

[Awaclus]

What?  No.  I'm not scum.  Why would you even think that?

Because the logical conclusion is that you knew Tara was in the setup because you are EgorK's scum partner and you're refusing to provide an alternative explanation.

[2.71828.....]

Sure, let me be more clear.

By claiming DeDe and Hockey are not masons, you are claiming mail-mi provided false data. This implies but does not guarantee scum!mail-mi, since it's possible something interfered somehow with the data he received.

I believe that info was N0 info as well, right? So seems pretty unlikely to be hit with something that would falsify data

Nope, N1.

N0 was the at least 4 scum thing.

Ok. I am on my phone so I can't really look mail-mi's claim up, but now that ichi had flipped self-aligned, how does that affect the 4 scum thing? Or was it just 4 not town aligned

[Witherweaver]

I believe he received that there were at least four non-town aligned in the setup, or something like that.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Yeah, pretty sure ash is scum.

Wait, what "fake claim"? That I watched ADK and he didn't do anything? Pretty sure ADK can verify this.

[chairs]

I believe he received that there were at least four non-town aligned in the setup, or something like that.

Correct.

[chairs]

I believe he received that there were at least four non-town aligned in the setup, or something like that.

Correct.

Clarity: He claims to have received that result.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I will also take this bet, btw: if I am not a town mason I will delete my account and every post. I am willing to stand by this wager, because I think it'd be hilarious to watch you delete your account.

[Witherweaver]

I believe he received that there were at least four non-town aligned in the setup, or something like that.

Correct.

Clarity: He claims to have received that result.

Way to save the scumslip!

[Witherweaver]

I will also take this bet, btw: if I am not a town mason I will delete my account and every post. I am willing to stand by this wager, because I think it'd be hilarious to watch you delete your account.

Is "Mason" actually in your role name?

[Delirious Deleuze]

I will also take this bet, btw: if I am not a town mason I will delete my account and every post. I am willing to stand by this wager, because I think it'd be hilarious to watch you delete your account.

Is "Mason" actually in your role name?

Technically the name of the role is my flavor name and the mason power is called "Watcher's Council" and me and hockey have that. That's what provides us the info that were on the same side and can talk in our own QT.

[ashersky]

DD, I don't get what your point here. I first was on Awaclus, because I assumed demons are bad, but I didn't want to divulge anything about my power, so had not said anything about Lekkit claim of Awaclus being human (besides Awaclus denied that himself already when I catched up on the thread). Then right after ash mentioned Angel is demon actually I clarified with faust about rolestopping and then switched to ADK right after that.

And it is not possible that all things get flipped as I've got demon result on Awaclus, so me and Lekkit can't both be wrong (unless there are entities that are both non human and non demon)

So, Egor opens the day voting Awaclus and allegedly thought all demons were bad.  Then switches to ADK.

See this is why I think he was lying about the demon thing. Had he actually had results he would've claimed them earlier. I think he was pushing to find the second faction with ADK.

Here's what Egor knew:

He's scum and knows his two partners. He knows there are four scum. Sees ADK have a vig shot and thinks, SK second faction. Tries to push a lynch there with a fake claim.

This is the post that is the veritable nail in the coffin.

As we have seen, DD has pushed the multiball setup theory multiple times as gospel this game.  Here he says Egor was second faction hunting, but then says he has two partners.  In a later post today he states with conviction the exact number of scum remaining.

Why is this problematic?  Why isn't this just mistaken town?  Because his own claim, as well as publicly know information, strongly counters his statements.

DD has assumed two scum teams of two players on multiple occasions.  The most likely people to assume such specific details in a game of this size are two player scum teams.

We have ZERO indication that there are multiple scum teams.  Zero.  Nothing.  And yet the "mason" states it as fact, multiple times?

Now, on public info and his claim.  Let's talk about the mod for a second.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I put Faust in the top tier of mafia mods here.  He thinks things through, and I seriously doubt he fucks up as badly as DD is trying to claim.

A two-man scum team would require some hefty powers to win a game this size.  That, or town needs to be weak.  That is basic mechanics.

And yet, EgorK flipped with a JOAT.  Now, we can't know his shots, but compare that to:

Full Watcher + Mason
Make a group of players untargetable + Mason

And that's just the two most outlandish claims.  For EgorK to win, his partner would need to be invincible.

Also, and much worse for DD -- IG's flip is public knowledge.  He was not town.  He falls into the count.  He adds to this discussion.  And yet DD continues with his argument that EgorK was other team hunting.

For DD to make that argument in the face of SO MUCH EVIDENCE against it is damning evidence that he know for a fact there is a scum faction other than EgorK's.  And the only way he can be do sure of that?  He is in that other faction.

(There are other explanations...traitors, for one.  Split team of the same faction...but those aren't gimmicks that Faust would use here, I don't think.)

As I. Typing on iPad on the bus, I am not sure how this reads, but anyway -- my point is that if DD were a real mason, he would never make the statements or arguments he has made up to now.  He is showing that he has more setup knowledge than town players would normally have, and he's been unable to stay consistent with his play style within his fake claim.

Bravo for trying, but you've run out of steam.

vote: DD

[ashersky]

I will also take this bet, btw: if I am not a town mason I will delete my account and every post. I am willing to stand by this wager, because I think it'd be hilarious to watch you delete your account.

I would point out that deleting my account and posts will wipe a large chunk of our mafia history on f.ds.

Pretty scummy of you to push that.

[ashersky]

Huh, missed a close italic somewhere in there.

[ashersky]

What?  No.  I'm not scum.  Why would you even think that?

Because the logical conclusion is that you knew Tara was in the setup because you are EgorK's scum partner and you're refusing to provide an alternative explanation.

Oh.  I guess that's one way to think.  That seems like a townslip from you.

I'd say in 99% of games, scum need to tell each other their flavor names.

As for why I knew she existed, I know others exist, too.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Yokay man. I mean you made the bet. I'm just the one actually willing to stand by it.

Go ahead, lynch me, clear hockey, and then lynch ash tomorrow.

Your case is absurd based around the idea I've been trying to speculate on different teams. I really do not care to argue with you at this point. You're just wrong and I honestly have better things to do than to argue with someone who can't see that.

[ashersky]

I mean, there's plenty of other conventional stuff against the "masons" too.  DD straight up lied to town on D2.  Hockey fumbled that shitstorm of a night action claim on D2, so badly that it wasted a huge chunk of the game, which is exactly what scum wants.

They have contributed little to no substance to the game, just confusion.  Basically talking without saying anything.  The best hockey has done is distract the entire town with his claim on D2 and tunnel me, of all people.

[Witherweaver]

Alright I need to claim something before this gets crazy.

I have the ability to receive role information of a player.  During Day 1, right after the Mason claim, I used this on DeDe.    What I get is basically the role description with information REDACTED.  (The exact power name is REDACTED, so is any info like other player names.)  What I received is:

1) There is another player (REDACTED) that is confirmed to have the same win condition.  Note that the wording does not say anything about town or other alignment, just that the win cons are the same.  It also says they can talk with a REDACTED link.

2) He has the ability to Watch (yes, it says exactly Watch) a target, and it informs him of all actions the target has performed this game phase.

3) He has another ability which I will not disclose.

The other player has to be Hockey, as almost no other scenario makes sense.  Now, it's POSSIBLE that he and Hockey are some other alignment, but if they were a second "Mafia" faction, they should have a normal Mafia QT and not a power that sounds very, very much like Masons in the role PMs.  Additionally, "Watcher" is generally a town power.  I admit that I was confused about this and the standard "Watcher" role, as this is really more of an enhanced Tracker.  But, still, something town usually gets. 

PPE: 5

[Delirious Deleuze]

And just to reiterate, I will deleted account if i don't flip town mason. I'm not afraid.

[ashersky]

Yokay man. I mean you made the bet. I'm just the one actually willing to stand by it.

Go ahead, lynch me, clear hockey, and then lynch ash tomorrow.

Your case is absurd based around the idea I've been trying to speculate on different teams. I really do not care to argue with you at this point. You're just wrong and I honestly have better things to do than to argue with someone who can't see that.

I made no bet.  Please quote me where I call that a bet.

Your response is a scum response to a T.  The "I'm not going to respond to your case" response is worthless, scummy, and an admission of guilt.

If you were actually town, you'd actually try, not whine.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Yokay man. I mean you made the bet. I'm just the one actually willing to stand by it.

Go ahead, lynch me, clear hockey, and then lynch ash tomorrow.

Your case is absurd based around the idea I've been trying to speculate on different teams. I really do not care to argue with you at this point. You're just wrong and I honestly have better things to do than to argue with someone who can't see that.

I made no bet.  Please quote me where I call that a bet.

Your response is a scum response to a T.  The "I'm not going to respond to your case" response is worthless, scummy, and an admission of guilt.

If you were actually town, you'd actually try, not whine.

Not whining, just realize when I speaking to someone pig headed enough to not concede when they're wrong. Even when several others corroborate my case.  You're jumping on literally nothing and you can't realize you're wrong.

[ashersky]

Alright I need to claim something before this gets crazy.

I have the ability to receive role information of a player.  During Day 1, right after the Mason claim, I used this on DeDe.    What I get is basically the role description with information REDACTED.  (The exact power name is REDACTED, so is any info like other player names.)  What I received is:

1) There is another player (REDACTED) that is confirmed to have the same win condition.  Note that the wording does not say anything about town or other alignment, just that the win cons are the same.  It also says they can talk with a REDACTED link.

2) He has the ability to Watch (yes, it says exactly Watch) a target, and it informs him of all actions the target has performed this game phase.

3) He has another ability which I will not disclose.

The other player has to be Hockey, as almost no other scenario makes sense.  Now, it's POSSIBLE that he and Hockey are some other alignment, but if they were a second "Mafia" faction, they should have a normal Mafia QT and not a power that sounds very, very much like Masons in the role PMs.  Additionally, "Watcher" is generally a town power.  I admit that I was confused about this and the standard "Watcher" role, as this is really more of an enhanced Tracker.  But, still, something town usually gets. 

PPE: 5

#1 means he's not self-aligned (like Ichi) and nothing else
#2 means he's a tracker
#3 means ?

What does any of this have to do with hockey or masons?

There are many instances and reasons for scum to have investigative powers.  Multiball bring the foremost.

[chairs]

Is it possible the wincon is non-standard, e.g. "You win when X is eliminated" but not necessarily something that's 100% aligned with Town goals? I could potentially see that.

[ashersky]

And just to reiterate, I will deleted account if i don't flip town mason. I'm not afraid.

Way to start backtracking already.