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Author Topic: Preview: Haunted Woods  (Read 64623 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview: Haunted Woods
« Reply #100 on: April 02, 2015, 10:38:40 pm »
0

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but it looks as if this has a pretty nasty combination with Possession.

"Oh, you didn't want a hand of all Copper?  TOO BAD"

Using it to put Copper on their deck probably isn't that smart. It means you didn't spend as much money as you could have to buy yourself a card. I don't think it makes Possession worse really. You leave them with a bad turn, so they buy nothing and Haunted Woods stops working.. that's what would have happened if you hadn't Possessed them anyway, just 1 turn sooner.
I don't understand what you're saying here. They have a bad turn, then you just do the same thing again on your turn (Haunted Woods -> Possession -> put garbage cards on their deck). Thus your opponent has garbage turns every turn for the rest of the game.

They can only do this if your deck is capable of drawing itself. In a typical deck, you're going to have an average hand for them to possess after your dead one. That average hand won't be likely to be able to get 5 dead cards in it. But I suppose it will still be strong with Possession. Could work out more like the Possession/Forge pin though; which is pretty uncommon.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 10:40:04 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Preview: Haunted Woods
« Reply #101 on: April 03, 2015, 05:34:59 am »
+2

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but it looks as if this has a pretty nasty combination with Possession.

"Oh, you didn't want a hand of all Copper?  TOO BAD"

Using it to put Copper on their deck probably isn't that smart. It means you didn't spend as much money as you could have to buy yourself a card. I don't think it makes Possession worse really. You leave them with a bad turn, so they buy nothing and Haunted Woods stops working.. that's what would have happened if you hadn't Possessed them anyway, just 1 turn sooner.
I don't understand what you're saying here. They have a bad turn, then you just do the same thing again on your turn (Haunted Woods -> Possession -> put garbage cards on their deck). Thus your opponent has garbage turns every turn for the rest of the game.

They can only do this if your deck is capable of drawing itself. In a typical deck, you're going to have an average hand for them to possess after your dead one. That average hand won't be likely to be able to get 5 dead cards in it. But I suppose it will still be strong with Possession. Could work out more like the Possession/Forge pin though; which is pretty uncommon.

This is indeed a combo with possession. (unlike possession-forge, which has such bizarre requirements it will never work in practice)
I've been on the receiving end of this combo and can confirm it's very painful. The requirements are:

* both possession and haunted woods on the board
* a village
* a way to trash cards

Then you both spot this combo and go for it. One of you will be slightly faster then the other. You will possess, buy a copper, topdeck 5 bad cards and they have a dud turn. You will possess again, and now you get to play with their deck minus the 5 bad cards. That is probably good enough to draw the deck again and voila 5 bad cards on top again. You do need to buy a copper every time you possess them, so you should also include a way to get rid of that copper on your own turns.

All in all it's about on par with Possession-Ambassador and Possession-Masquerade - if you end up on the losing side you simply lose the game.
But if you both accept this race as 'the new game to play' it's still a fun one to play out. Just resign once you're blocked out in stead of letting the agony get to you.
In theory you could hope to buy so many coppers on the turns you still do get to play that your own deck becomes so bad they can't keep it up, but no... no thanks.
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werothegreat

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Re: Preview: Haunted Woods
« Reply #102 on: April 03, 2015, 08:56:22 am »
0

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but it looks as if this has a pretty nasty combination with Possession.

"Oh, you didn't want a hand of all Copper?  TOO BAD"

Using it to put Copper on their deck probably isn't that smart. It means you didn't spend as much money as you could have to buy yourself a card. I don't think it makes Possession worse really. You leave them with a bad turn, so they buy nothing and Haunted Woods stops working.. that's what would have happened if you hadn't Possessed them anyway, just 1 turn sooner.
I don't understand what you're saying here. They have a bad turn, then you just do the same thing again on your turn (Haunted Woods -> Possession -> put garbage cards on their deck). Thus your opponent has garbage turns every turn for the rest of the game.

They can only do this if your deck is capable of drawing itself. In a typical deck, you're going to have an average hand for them to possess after your dead one. That average hand won't be likely to be able to get 5 dead cards in it. But I suppose it will still be strong with Possession. Could work out more like the Possession/Forge pin though; which is pretty uncommon.

This is indeed a combo with possession. (unlike possession-forge, which has such bizarre requirements it will never work in practice)
I've been on the receiving end of this combo and can confirm it's very painful. The requirements are:

* both possession and haunted woods on the board
* a village
* a way to trash cards

Then you both spot this combo and go for it. One of you will be slightly faster then the other. You will possess, buy a copper, topdeck 5 bad cards and they have a dud turn. You will possess again, and now you get to play with their deck minus the 5 bad cards. That is probably good enough to draw the deck again and voila 5 bad cards on top again. You do need to buy a copper every time you possess them, so you should also include a way to get rid of that copper on your own turns.

All in all it's about on par with Possession-Ambassador and Possession-Masquerade - if you end up on the losing side you simply lose the game.
But if you both accept this race as 'the new game to play' it's still a fun one to play out. Just resign once you're blocked out in stead of letting the agony get to you.
In theory you could hope to buy so many coppers on the turns you still do get to play that your own deck becomes so bad they can't keep it up, but no... no thanks.

Hmm.  Powerful enough to be worth mentioning on the wiki as a combo?
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Re: Preview: Haunted Woods
« Reply #103 on: April 03, 2015, 09:03:09 am »
0

I just noticed you can still buy events without consequences when this is in play.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview: Haunted Woods
« Reply #104 on: April 03, 2015, 09:37:10 am »
0

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but it looks as if this has a pretty nasty combination with Possession.

"Oh, you didn't want a hand of all Copper?  TOO BAD"

Using it to put Copper on their deck probably isn't that smart. It means you didn't spend as much money as you could have to buy yourself a card. I don't think it makes Possession worse really. You leave them with a bad turn, so they buy nothing and Haunted Woods stops working.. that's what would have happened if you hadn't Possessed them anyway, just 1 turn sooner.
I don't understand what you're saying here. They have a bad turn, then you just do the same thing again on your turn (Haunted Woods -> Possession -> put garbage cards on their deck). Thus your opponent has garbage turns every turn for the rest of the game.

They can only do this if your deck is capable of drawing itself. In a typical deck, you're going to have an average hand for them to possess after your dead one. That average hand won't be likely to be able to get 5 dead cards in it. But I suppose it will still be strong with Possession. Could work out more like the Possession/Forge pin though; which is pretty uncommon.

This is indeed a combo with possession. (unlike possession-forge, which has such bizarre requirements it will never work in practice)
I've been on the receiving end of this combo and can confirm it's very painful. The requirements are:

* both possession and haunted woods on the board
* a village
* a way to trash cards

Then you both spot this combo and go for it. One of you will be slightly faster then the other. You will possess, buy a copper, topdeck 5 bad cards and they have a dud turn. You will possess again, and now you get to play with their deck minus the 5 bad cards. That is probably good enough to draw the deck again and voila 5 bad cards on top again. You do need to buy a copper every time you possess them, so you should also include a way to get rid of that copper on your own turns.

All in all it's about on par with Possession-Ambassador and Possession-Masquerade - if you end up on the losing side you simply lose the game.
But if you both accept this race as 'the new game to play' it's still a fun one to play out. Just resign once you're blocked out in stead of letting the agony get to you.
In theory you could hope to buy so many coppers on the turns you still do get to play that your own deck becomes so bad they can't keep it up, but no... no thanks.

The bold part is where I get lost. Why would an average hand be likely to be good enough to draw the deck? Especially in a deck with at least 5 dead cards? Also, on top of needing to be able to draw your opponent's deck, you have to draw your own deck, so that you can reliably play both Haunted Woods and Possession every turn. And if you can draw both your own deck and your opponent's deck reliably, isn't that basically what's needed for the Forge pin? (Plus they need to have a Forge of course).

One other thing, if you do get this working, you wouldn't just need to buy a Copper every turn... you would have played all or most of your opponent's deck, so you could probably buy another Village or other engine piece.

*Edit* Never mind about the Forge thing, I just remembered that they can't actually play any cards for Forge to work; you have to make them draw their entire deck on your own turn with Governor or such.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 09:47:08 am by GendoIkari »
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joel88s

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Re: Preview: Haunted Woods
« Reply #105 on: April 03, 2015, 09:37:57 am »
+4

OK this can't be healthy, sitting here hitting refresh every 30 seconds....
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werothegreat

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Re: Preview: Haunted Woods
« Reply #106 on: April 03, 2015, 09:41:25 am »
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I think what makes HW/Poss. better than Forge/Poss. is that you only need to draw 5 junk cards, not the entire deck.
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Re: Preview: Haunted Woods
« Reply #107 on: April 03, 2015, 09:52:31 am »
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The bold part is where I get lost. Why would an average hand be likely to be good enough to draw the deck? Especially in a deck with at least 5 dead cards?
The dead cards will always be in the discard pile once you get the pin going.

And if you can draw both your own deck and your opponent's deck reliably, isn't that basically what's needed for the Forge pin? (Plus they need to have a Forge of course).
Forge pin requires drawing their entire deck without putting any of their non-dead cards into play. This usually requires Governor, Council Room, or Procession, and by usually I mean never.
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pacovf

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Re: Preview: Haunted Woods
« Reply #108 on: April 06, 2015, 11:35:13 am »
+2

First thing I want to look at, how good is the card without the attack bit? Terminal nothing now, Hunting Grounds next turn. Or, I think a useful thing for duration cards, playing one every turn is like playing.... a smithy every turn. But you need to get two. And this misses the shuffle more than smithy. And it costs 5. In return, you can maybe set up something where you're getting some monstrously good hands and some very mediocre ones - but I find that, at least with most of the other duration cards, I much prefer having them split than gobbed up together. (Tactician is the obvious exception)

I've been thinking about this. Let's call "Woods" the non-attack part of this card.

First thing, how many Durations miss a reshuffle due to their Durationiness? On average, exactly as many as the average number you play each turn*. So, if you play a Woods every turn, you will need to buy one more than if it didn't stay on play until your next turn.

*The well-known corollary to this is that, in a draw-your-deck engine, you need twice as many Durations as you intend to play every turn.

But!

To play a smithy every turn, you need to have smithy in your starting 5 card hand. While to play a Woods every turn, you need to have one in your starting 8 card hand. If we use the naïve approximation of buying 1 smithy per 5 cards in your deck and one Woods per 8 cards in your deck to allow playing one per turn, that means that for a 15-16 card deck you need just as many for both, and for a 24-25 card deck, you need one less Woods than smithies.

Buying less Woodses than smithies for larger decks is a double advantage: you can spend those buys and coins on other useful cards, and you will have less dead actions limiting your buying power (those dead smithies in your hand could have been a silver, etc.).

All this (and the possibility of using it as a pseudo-tactician) is likely not enough for Woods to jump from $4 to $5. But it's definitely not worse than smithy when playing one per turn.
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Minotaur

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Re: Preview: Haunted Woods
« Reply #109 on: June 06, 2015, 04:28:10 pm »
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Subtle but important point: when you "buy" a card, you subsequently "gain" it. In other words, the gaining comes strictly after the buying. No, this isn't stated in any of the rulebooks, but it's implied by the Mint FAQ in the Prosperity rulebook, and it's been explicitly confirmed by official tester Jeff Wolfe on BGG.

Here's one example of why it matters: Suppose you play Royal Seal, then buy a Mint. The Mint's "when you buy" effect triggers, trashing the Royal Seal. Then you gain the Mint, but since the Royal Seal is no longer in play its "when you gain" effect can't be used to put the Mint on top of your deck.

Confirmation that buying triggers a gain rather than being a certain type of gaining.  Therefore, you buy something, Haunted Woods kicks in, and whoops, Watchtower is on your deck, so you can't reveal it in response to gaining the bought card.

This was already correctly stated upthread, but without verification from Donald X himself.  (It came up earlier today and I wanted to double-check)

Can this information be added to the wiki?  (It should've been in the rule sheet, but so it goes.)
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Re: Preview: Haunted Woods
« Reply #110 on: June 06, 2015, 05:05:11 pm »
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Subtle but important point: when you "buy" a card, you subsequently "gain" it. In other words, the gaining comes strictly after the buying. No, this isn't stated in any of the rulebooks, but it's implied by the Mint FAQ in the Prosperity rulebook, and it's been explicitly confirmed by official tester Jeff Wolfe on BGG.

Here's one example of why it matters: Suppose you play Royal Seal, then buy a Mint. The Mint's "when you buy" effect triggers, trashing the Royal Seal. Then you gain the Mint, but since the Royal Seal is no longer in play its "when you gain" effect can't be used to put the Mint on top of your deck.

Confirmation that buying triggers a gain rather than being a certain type of gaining.  Therefore, you buy something, Haunted Woods kicks in, and whoops, Watchtower is on your deck, so you can't reveal it in response to gaining the bought card.

This was already correctly stated upthread, but without verification from Donald X himself.  (It came up earlier today and I wanted to double-check)

Can this information be added to the wiki?  (It should've been in the rule sheet, but so it goes.)
Buying is not gaining. Buying is paying for the thing. Buying a card causes you to gain it, but that isn't timed like a "when you buy this" trigger. You buy it (paying); all when-buy triggers happen; you gain it; all when-gain triggers happen. I think people have extensively charted this somewhere.
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Minotaur

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Re: Preview: Haunted Woods
« Reply #111 on: June 08, 2015, 07:38:11 pm »
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Subtle but important point: when you "buy" a card, you subsequently "gain" it. In other words, the gaining comes strictly after the buying. No, this isn't stated in any of the rulebooks, but it's implied by the Mint FAQ in the Prosperity rulebook, and it's been explicitly confirmed by official tester Jeff Wolfe on BGG.

Here's one example of why it matters: Suppose you play Royal Seal, then buy a Mint. The Mint's "when you buy" effect triggers, trashing the Royal Seal. Then you gain the Mint, but since the Royal Seal is no longer in play its "when you gain" effect can't be used to put the Mint on top of your deck.

Confirmation that buying triggers a gain rather than being a certain type of gaining.  Therefore, you buy something, Haunted Woods kicks in, and whoops, Watchtower is on your deck, so you can't reveal it in response to gaining the bought card.

This was already correctly stated upthread, but without verification from Donald X himself.  (It came up earlier today and I wanted to double-check)

Can this information be added to the wiki?  (It should've been in the rule sheet, but so it goes.)
Buying is not gaining. Buying is paying for the thing. Buying a card causes you to gain it, but that isn't timed like a "when you buy this" trigger. You buy it (paying); all when-buy triggers happen; you gain it; all when-gain triggers happen. I think people have extensively charted this somewhere.

I already quoted your relevant statement to provide confirmation for the statement upthread.  And this is a good deal less well-known than some other things that are explained in the Haunted Woods rule sheet.  I think it belongs on the Wiki, even if it's too late to reprint the sheets.  So yeah, the information is out there, but is a lot more easily missed than the things that ARE separately explained.
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