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[Mic Qsenoch]

Haunted Woods: Action - Attack - Duration $5
Until your next turn, when any other player buys a card, he puts his hand on top of his deck in any order. At the start of your next turn:
+3 cards

Orange is such a beautiful color, isn’t it? We now have Duration technology to make your opponent miserable during their turn. Plus the card has a sweet name.

Haunted Woods reminds me of Rabble in many ways. There’s the +3 cards, but the attack parts feel similar as well. The attack can be weak for much of the game, and there’s often ways to avoid it. I’ll let all of you talk about the different ways. But if you green without preparing your deck for a constant Haunted Woods barrage you might be in for a bad time. It’s also possible for the attack portion to be friendly interaction, letting you put good cards back on top of your deck. A lot of nice player interaction to be had in this card.

As a duration you won’t be able to play Haunted Woods as often as other card drawers, but getting +3 cards at the start of your turn is, like, the best time to get them! Sometimes people underestimate this fact.

Moat must be revealed (or Lighthouse be in play) when Haunted Woods is played to block the attack effect.

[LastFootnote]

My favorite attack in the set! Or a close second at the very least.

Thanks for the preview!

[ehunt]

april fools?

[Heisenberg]

Do they have to put back their starting hand?  Or is it the whole hand they drew and played?

[LastFootnote]

april fools?

This card is straight-up legit, and so is the fact that it was posted before Donald's previews, in case you were wondering about that. We bonus previewers can post our previews whenever during the day, except it didn't make sense to preview Transmogrify before Donald explained Reserve cards.

Do they have to put back their starting hand?  Or is it the whole hand they drew and played?

Not the cards in play, just the cards left in their hand.

[AdamH]

In my IRL games, it's the responsibility of the attacker to remind the other people to get attacked; this came up frequently, since we haven't seen an Attack card whose effects aren't resolved immediately before.

On the other hand, online, it's very easy to forget that your opponent has this out and get totally hosed by it. Ouch.

But this card is so cool, before greening it can potentially help your opponent, but +3 Cards at the start of your turn, man, that's what made Wharf amazing and here it is again, just more lopsided. Building decks that focus around duration effects is now asymmetrical and it gave me that brain-hurt that Dark Ages gave me in the best way imaginable.

Do they have to put back their starting hand?  Or is it the whole hand they drew and played?

They put back all the cards in their hand that they didn't play, so green cards and unplayed Actions/Treasures.

[pubby]

If my opponent ever plays this followed by Possession I think I would resign.

[faust]

This can get painful with Grand Market. "So, I have enough money to buy two Grand Markets... do I play my 3 Coppers, or do I start the next turn with them? ... Good thing I still got that Guide in my Tavern."

[Rubby]

Moat must be revealed (or Lighthouse be in play) when Haunted Woods is played to block the attack effect.

Tracking issue in multiplayer games? I believe it's unprecedented in Dominion for the rules to require you to remember something that happened more than one turn ago.

[Tombolo]

this seems crazy strong!

[LastFootnote]

Moat must be revealed (or Lighthouse be in play) when Haunted Woods is played to block the attack effect.

Tracking issue in multiplayer games? I believe it's unprecedented in Dominion for the rules to require you to remember something that happened more than one turn ago.

Well, whatever you used to block the attack will be either in your hand or in play when your turn starts, so it's not so awful.

this seems crazy strong!

Depends on the board!

[Heisenberg]

Thank you Guide!

[Jimmmmm]

Moat must be revealed (or Lighthouse be in play) when Haunted Woods is played to block the attack effect.

Tracking issue in multiplayer games? I believe it's unprecedented in Dominion for the rules to require you to remember something that happened more than one turn ago.

Well, whatever you used to block the attack will be either in your hand or in play when your turn starts, so it's not so awful.

Not if you choose to discard the Moat for whatever reason (Militia v Library, Minion with a bad hand, Vault etc)

[enfynet]

Worst April Fools card ever? I mean, couldn't you preview Jelly Donut or Bacon Cheeseburger like any reasonable person would?

And yes, this feels like a delayed Rabble. Starting a turn with 8 cards could potentially be strong enough to counter itself.

[bedlam]

So when my opponent is drawing his whole deck and it's near end game and I put this out there and he has to put his 9 or 10 green cards (he's a fan of the Duchie) back on top effectively ruining his next two turns?

[Burning Skull]

Cool! If your opponent goes heavy on Haunted Woods you can go heavy on terminals.

[Watno]

Wow, this can really kill engines once they start greening or get a couple of curses. On the other hand, it might help them during buildup.
Secret chamber looks like a nice counter.

[Emeric]

What ! My turn is now finish after my Black Market !

[werothegreat]

I think you meant "terminal draw"?

[Rubby]

Moat must be revealed (or Lighthouse be in play) when Haunted Woods is played to block the attack effect.

Tracking issue in multiplayer games? I believe it's unprecedented in Dominion for the rules to require you to remember something that happened more than one turn ago.

Well, whatever you used to block the attack will be either in your hand or in play when your turn starts, so it's not so awful.

Not if you choose to discard the Moat for whatever reason (Militia v Library, Minion with a bad hand, Vault etc)

And being in your hand doesn't mean that you revealed it, or that it was even in your hand at the time the Haunted Woods was played.

[Jimmmmm]

I think you meant "terminal draw"?

But it's non-terminal draw, unlike Rabble.

[LastFootnote]

Moat must be revealed (or Lighthouse be in play) when Haunted Woods is played to block the attack effect.

Tracking issue in multiplayer games? I believe it's unprecedented in Dominion for the rules to require you to remember something that happened more than one turn ago.

Well, whatever you used to block the attack will be either in your hand or in play when your turn starts, so it's not so awful.

Not if you choose to discard the Moat for whatever reason (Militia v Library, Minion with a bad hand, Vault etc)

And being in your hand doesn't mean that you revealed it, or that it was even in your hand at the time the Haunted Woods was played.

*sad trombone noise*

But seriously, 98% of the time you'll have that Moat or Lighthouse as a small reminder.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I think you meant "terminal draw"?

Thanks, really Haunted Woods draw isn't terminal (but Rabble of course is) so I just changed that part.

[jsh357]

Wow, you guys have been april fooled big time.  That isn't the real Haunted Woods Art.  Nice fake, though, but I can tell it's a shop due to some pixels here and there.  This one's the real deal:

[werothegreat]

I think you meant "terminal draw"?

Thanks, really Haunted Woods draw isn't terminal (but Rabble of course is) so I just changed that part.

But isn't it?  It still takes an Action to play... I mean, in an odd way that Action is "replaced" on your next turn, but... man, Durations are weird.  Not as weird as Transmogrify, though.

Anyway, great art, again!  Mr. Miller's cgi managed to not look garbage!  Though it looks more like a jungle.  A loyal jungle?

[Witherweaver]

Moat must be revealed (or Lighthouse be in play) when Haunted Woods is played to block the attack effect.

Tracking issue in multiplayer games? I believe it's unprecedented in Dominion for the rules to require you to remember something that happened more than one turn ago.

That's why there is a new Duration Reaction Mat with Lighthouse and Moat tokens.  If revealed a Moat or had a Lighthouse in play against a Duration Attack, place a token on your mat to remind you.

[Watno]

It's a terminal, but the draw isn't terminal. You can't draw anything dead with it, which is kinda huge.

[Asper]

Hmm... I kind of expected a card with that name to be a VP card... Not sure what i think of this besides that.

[Witherweaver]

Is it almost good without the attack part?  I mean if it were $4 it'd be like a Smithy for next turn.  It misses shuffles, but doesn't draw dead. 

[Mr Anderson]

Wow, you guys have been april fooled big time.  That isn't the real Haunted Woods Art.  Nice fake, though, but I can tell it's a shop due to some pixels here and there.  This one's the real deal:

This is definitely going to be the #1 in your art rankings.

This card looks pretty strong to me. It seems that this card would be very hard to ignore because you will most likely need the draw after you were hit with this attack. Vault, Secret Chamber and Storeroom as well as sifters are great counters, though.

[GendoIkari]

Did this always trigger on buy? With Swamp Hag I remember well that there was the option to not buy, and thus not get hit with the attack, but I didn't remember that option happening here. It's good though, it means that if you got a terrible hand, like almost all green, then you don't get completely screwed.

[LastFootnote]

Did this always trigger on buy? With Swamp Hag I remember well that there was the option to not buy, and thus not get hit with the attack, but I didn't remember that option happening here. It's good though, it means that if you got a terrible hand, like almost all green, then you don't get completely screwed.

It was always on-Buy. In fact I don't think Haunted Woods changed at all from its initial form. Ditto Transmogrify.

[markusin]

Okay, so now when I topdeck a bought card with Watchtower, I can now topdeck the Watchtower too? And I can also play Watchtower and topdeck any dead draws? You can't stop Watchtower!

So, the non-attack portion looks a tad bit weaker than Wharf. No +buy or cards on the turn it is played. But using this card early can backfire as it can help your opponents build too by having them topdeck unused actions.

But late game, the attack is brutal if your opponent needed to gradually gain VP cards. It even hits massive draw decks faster.

Some good counters are Vault-like cards that discard cards a lot. Minion engines too actually. With Minion, you rarely end the turn with more than 2 junk cards in hand.

[brokoli]

This looks very, very strong. From all the previews, the strongest one I think.
The best counters are obviously the discarders/sifters like Vault, Horse traders, Secret Chamber, Tactician. But without any of them, this could really block an engine. I guess having "dead" actions can unblock situations of green hands. You don't want to play that crossroad so you can play it next turn with your green hand.

[GendoIkari]

So, the non-attack portion looks a tad bit weaker than Wharf. No +buy or cards on the turn it is played.

Well it better be weaker. If it weren't, it would be a card as strong as Wharf, except with an added attack, for the same cost.

[Hockey Mask]

Does this mean your opponent is limited to one buy unless that player happens to lay both treasure at the same time?  Two platinums would allow you to buy a $6 and a $4 as long as you buy the $6 first?

[GendoIkari]

Does this mean your opponent is limited to one buy unless that player happens to lay both treasure at the same time?  Two platinums would allow you to buy a $6 and a $4 as long as you buy the $6 first?

No, you always play all your treasure cards before buying anything. You aren't allowed to ever play more treasure after you buy something in your buy phase. You don't play each treasure you need to pay for a card as you buy that card. In the buy phase, you first play all treasures you want to play, one at a time, and then you buy all the cards you want to buy.

[Watno]

You play as many treasures as you want and the start buying cards.

Unless you play Black Market, which doesn't seem like a great idea.

[SCSN]

So, the non-attack portion looks a tad bit weaker than Wharf. No +buy or cards on the turn it is played.

Well it better be weaker. If it weren't, it would be a card as strong as Wharf, except with an added attack, for the same cost.

Which only goes to show that Wharf is much too weak. I've always thought it should have "each other player reveals his hand and either trashes or keeps it, your choice" added to it.

[Hockey Mask]

Does this mean your opponent is limited to one buy unless that player happens to lay both treasure at the same time?  Two platinums would allow you to buy a $6 and a $4 as long as you buy the $6 first?

No, you always play all your treasure cards before buying anything. You aren't allowed to ever play more treasure after you buy something in your buy phase. You don't play each treasure you need to pay for a card as you buy that card. In the buy phase, you first play all treasures you want to play, one at a time, and then you buy all the cards you want to buy.

Of course.  Thank you.

[Donald X.]

It was always on-Buy. In fact I don't think Haunted Woods changed at all from its initial form. Ditto Transmogrify.

Haunted Woods never changed, but there was at least one other version of Transmogrify right at the beginning (without checking I think it was a full-on Remodel for $6).

[LastFootnote]

It was always on-Buy. In fact I don't think Haunted Woods changed at all from its initial form. Ditto Transmogrify.

Haunted Woods never changed, but there was at least one other version of Transmogrify right at the beginning (without checking I think it was a full-on Remodel for $6).

I am pretty certain we never saw that version.

[Witherweaver]

Was there ever any thought of trying to include the option of topdecking your own hand when you buy?  In some cases this can be used tactically.  But you wouldn't always want to do it.  And giving you the option while forcing other players to do it would probably be too clunky.

[WanderingWinder]

First thing I want to look at, how good is the card without the attack bit? Terminal nothing now, Hunting Grounds next turn. Or, I think a useful thing for duration cards, playing one every turn is like playing.... a smithy every turn. But you need to get two. And this misses the shuffle more than smithy. And it costs 5. In return, you can maybe set up something where you're getting some monstrously good hands and some very mediocre ones - but I find that, at least with most of the other duration cards, I much prefer having them split than gobbed up together. (Tactician is the obvious exception)

Soooooooooooo... the attack better be very strong for this card to be good. I mean, this is some amount of draw, it's probably not the worst thing ever, but I doubt it would be strong without the attack being at least fairly good. How good is the attack?

If an engine has some kind of discard (even warehouse will often be good enough) or trashing to get rid of its green cards, this doesn't hurt. Big Money decks are somewhat inconvenienced, but late in the game, the hands where you do have lots of money, you won't have to keep many cards in hand, so it ends up being not too dissimilar from Bureaucrat. The hands where you have lots of green cards in hand, you probably don't have that much money, you just forego your buy. Now this is a real cost, don't get me wrong - not getting a gold can really hurt, not getting silver hurts a reasonable amount early on and a tiny even in the late game - but it's not the hugest thing ever; pretty mild as attacks go.

On top of all this, the attack can actually just aid the player being attacked fairly reasonably. If I am overdrawing, I can seed my next hand by not playing some actions. If I have one of those super hands in a Big Money deck, where I am wasting a bunch of cash because it all clumped up, now I get to spread it out.

Overall, I expect the card to be rather weak. Not unplayable, by any stretch, just rarely the thing you actually want. I guess when it is good, you will probably know, and it can be fairly decent there.

[Donald X.]

It was always on-Buy. In fact I don't think Haunted Woods changed at all from its initial form. Ditto Transmogrify.

Haunted Woods never changed, but there was at least one other version of Transmogrify right at the beginning (without checking I think it was a full-on Remodel for $6).

I am pretty certain we never saw that version.

I have a record of all those doings you know. Okay you heard about it, but when I officially added the card for external playtesters it was already the $4 +$1 version.

[Donald X.]

Was there ever any thought of trying to include the option of topdecking your own hand when you buy?  In some cases this can be used tactically.  But you wouldn't always want to do it.  And giving you the option while forcing other players to do it would probably be too clunky.

No there was no thought of that stuff. The cards all try to be simple, they only get messy when they have to.

[werothegreat]

Haunted Woods will definitely be stronger when there are no trashers, and even stronger with junkers out.  Maybe now you'll *want* to play your Ruined Villages!

[LastFootnote]

It was always on-Buy. In fact I don't think Haunted Woods changed at all from its initial form. Ditto Transmogrify.

Haunted Woods never changed, but there was at least one other version of Transmogrify right at the beginning (without checking I think it was a full-on Remodel for $6).

I am pretty certain we never saw that version.

I have a record of all those doings you know. Okay you heard about it, but when I officially added the card for external playtesters it was already the $4 +$1 version.

Well, you know what they say about my memory...

[DG]

This should be an interesting card as it should change how you play. Something to consider is that if you draw a massive hand to buy a province then you could be putting seven or eight unplayable cards back on top of your deck. In multiplayer you could also see your starting estates accumulate in hand until you are forced to have a dead turn. Combinations of attacks with haunted woods may come up with strange results as well, not least with fortune teller.

[markusin]

Huh, playing Haunted Woods has anti-synergy with discard attacks.

Gotta say, nice art, nice flavour (fits with Ghost Ship).

[GendoIkari]

Huh, playing Haunted Woods has anti-synergy with discard attacks.

Gotta say, nice art, nice flavour (fits with Ghost Ship).

Ooh, playing Haunted Woods right after Ghost Ship could be really nasty though.

[WanderingWinder]

This should be an interesting card as it should change how you play. Something to consider is that if you draw a massive hand to buy a province then you could be putting seven or eight unplayable cards back on top of your deck.

That seems like a really rare scenario. How many decks let you draw a massive hand but have 7 or 8 cards they can't play?

[DG]

This should be an interesting card as it should change how you play. Something to consider is that if you draw a massive hand to buy a province then you could be putting seven or eight unplayable cards back on top of your deck.

That seems like a really rare scenario. How many decks let you draw a massive hand but have 7 or 8 cards they can't play?

Seven or more cards would be extreme but if you're running a single tactician then you could easily start getting four or more.

[crlundy]

Like Taxman in Guilds, I think this does a good job of feeling like a new Attack. It's scary because (like Bureaucrat) it can topdeck with no limit. But that's balanced by being completely avoidable (don't buy anything). I like that Haunted Woods requires some new (or heretofore rarely used) strategies to avoid well. Playing your Ruins, leaving good cards in your hand, etc. Secret Chamber and Vault are obv great defense for this.

[markusin]

So, the non-attack portion looks a tad bit weaker than Wharf. No +buy or cards on the turn it is played.

Well it better be weaker. If it weren't, it would be a card as strong as Wharf, except with an added attack, for the same cost.

But the added attack can help your opponent during the buildup phase of the game, where it's draw it the main source of value. So it can in theory be close in power to Wharf if the attack was a wash.

Not I'm sure the attack does more harm than good on average, but I also expect the +3 cards to be weaker than the +2 cards and +1 Buy you get from both Wharf turns. +Buy really helps in deck building. It balances out I think.

[GendoIkari]

If you have 3-5 dead cards in your hand during your buy phase, this gives you an interesting choice... do you take a dead turn now, or next turn?

[enfynet]

Okay, so now when I topdeck a bought card with Watchtower, I can now topdeck the Watchtower too? And I can also play Watchtower and topdeck any dead draws? You can't stop Watchtower!

But, Watchtower is On-Gain, not On-Buy. So by the time you gain the card you want to topdeck, your Watchtower is already back on your deck.

[crlundy]

Okay, so now when I topdeck a bought card with Watchtower, I can now topdeck the Watchtower too? And I can also play Watchtower and topdeck any dead draws? You can't stop Watchtower!

But, Watchtower is On-Gain, not On-Buy. So by the time you gain the card you want to topdeck, your Watchtower is already back on your deck.

Wow, good point. Haunted Woods is a good way to derail Goons/Watchtower.

[iguanaiguana]

So it counters watchtower, but did anyone notice yet how horribly it counters scout?? Perhaps DXV in his wisdom saw that too many cards were comboing with scout and decided to weaken it with a strong counter. The counter is so utterly strong that you may actually not want to get any (!!) scouts on a haunted woods board. Obviously we'll need to update the wiki with a 'Counter: Haunted Woods vs. Scout' page.

[Serialian]

I just don't understand why Robz hasn't said how this combos with Scout.

It seems like an obvious synergy.

[Witherweaver]

I just don't understand why Robz hasn't said how this combos with Scout.

It seems like an obvious synergy.

Too bad you can't play Scout during your Buy phase

Edit: But, like, Golem-> [Black Market, Scout] -> Black Market -> Buy -> Victory Cards on Deck; Scout -> Draw Victory Cards.  Such synergy, much wow.

[Titandrake]

I just don't understand why Robz hasn't said how this combos with Scout.

It seems like an obvious synergy.

Too bad you can't play Scout during your Buy phase

That's not the Scout combo. The normal problem with Scout is that you draw all these Victory cards, but only get them for one turn. Now you can get them for 2 turns!

[Robz888]

I just don't understand why Robz hasn't said how this combos with Scout.

It seems like an obvious synergy.

I don't see it.

[Deadlock39]

When you are under the effect of Haunted Woods, and you draw your whole deck, which includes 20 Victory cards, you skip playing your 5 Scouts this turn so after you make your buy, you can top deck your 20 Victory cards, followed by your 5 Scouts.  Now you only have 1 dead turn instead of 4 dead turns. This is how Scout counters Haunted Woods.

[Jimmmmm]

Interesting how the attack is super anti-engine, but the draw is excellent for engines.
I guess when playing a non-engine against this you just get progressively bad hands until you decide to skip a turn.

[eHalcyon]

Interesting how the attack is super anti-engine, but the draw is excellent for engines.
I guess when playing a non-engine against this you just get progressively bad hands until you decide to skip a turn.

I don't think it's that anti-engine.  You already put off greening until later with engines, so the "attack" can actually be used to your advantage until then.  Just keep back some good cards and you can save them for your next turn.

[swedenman]

This might be my new favorite card art. No question it's up there.

Anyway, like the other durations revealed today, I think it's really neat, but it just doesn't look that strong. The draw is weak and it seems as though there would be a lot of easy ways to get around the attack. But time will tell, I suppose.

[LastFootnote]

The attack ranges from helpful to devastating. The draw is definitely not weak.

[Jimmmmm]

Interesting how the attack is super anti-engine, but the draw is excellent for engines.
I guess when playing a non-engine against this you just get progressively bad hands until you decide to skip a turn.

I don't think it's that anti-engine.  You already put off greening until later with engines, so the "attack" can actually be used to your advantage until then.  Just keep back some good cards and you can save them for your next turn.

I guess it's anti certain engines. With good trashing you're not really effected, although even if you build up to double-Province, as soon as you do it's worse than a (delayed) Militia.

[GendoIkari]

It's obviously anti Duke and Silk Road.

[Marcory]

I can see Haunted Woods's attack being stronger than it first appears, but Haunted Woods is also its own soft counter (as well as a soft counter to attacks like Ghost Ship and Rabble. So I can see players racing for Haunted Woods in a way that they wouldn't race for the likes of Smithy, Journeyman, or Margrave, because HW is both attack and defense, as well as a potentially key engine component.

[blueblimp]

I think most engines will want 2 of these, and more if there's no other draw in the kingdom. Starting with an 8 card hand is good for reliability, obviously, especially if your opponent's Haunted Woods put your 3 starting estates back on your deck. The attack can be good, but doesn't stack, and 2 is enough to play one every turn.

Playing against this card ought to be high skill. There's a lot you can do to mitigate the effect of the attack or twist it to your advantage. Looks fun.

[Grujah]

It's so cool that Guide gets you through Haunted Woods safely

[pacovf]

Terminal non-terminal draw!

[csa]

Just to confirm, this basically prevents you from playing any more actions/treasures (edge-cases aside) after buying at the Black Market, correct?

[Gherald]

Just to confirm, this basically prevents you from playing any more actions/treasures (edge-cases aside) after buying at the Black Market, correct?

Correct, once you buy your first card -- whether at the BM or elsewhere -- any remaining actions/treasures in your hand will kaput back to your deck.

[GendoIkari]

Just to confirm, this basically prevents you from playing any more actions/treasures (edge-cases aside) after buying at the Black Market, correct?

Correct, once you buy your first card -- whether at the BM or elsewhere -- any remaining actions/treasures in your hand will kaput back to your deck.

With the usual double-Tactician edge cases applying. That is an interesting interaction that I hadn't thought of though. All those cool tricks that you can do with Black Market no longer work if your opponent plays Haunted Woods.

[Gherald]

With the usual double-Tactician edge cases applying.

?

[Matt_Arnold]

Since there are now Duration-Attacks, I'm curious how to resolve the problem I experienced with a Duration-Attack fan card I designed for the "Online-Only Cards" thread.

Levy
Type: Action / Duration / Attack
Cost: $5
+$3,
--------------------
While this is in play, all cards cost $1 more.

For in-person play, the problem with this card is that it's too easy to not notice Durations in the areas of other players. If your mistake costed you a missed opportunity, it would be fine. Instead, your mistake advantages you, which is unacceptable. By the time you realize the mistake, no one remembers how to undo the error.

If your opponent discards his hand when he should have top-decked it, and you fail to point this out, should the players just go on and forget about it? This seems like the only way to consider the game state to continue to be legal.

[scott_pilgrim]

If your opponent discards his hand when he should have top-decked it, and you fail to point this out, should the players just go on and forget about it? This seems like the only way to consider the game state to continue to be legal.

In my IRL games, it's the responsibility of the attacker to remind the other people to get attacked; this came up frequently, since we haven't seen an Attack card whose effects aren't resolved immediately before.

I think the more general rule is, if you forget something that benefits you (even if it's indirectly, by hurting another player), that's too bad, it was your fault.  I'm sure you could construct a weird political edge case out of that, but I think that's how most reasonable people would play.

[Marcory]

With the usual double-Tactician edge cases applying.

?

Only edge-case I can think of is Golem that plays a second action card from your deck after the Black market, similar to when Golem plays a Tactician as its first action and, say, Lab on its second (maybe that's what GendoIkari was referring to). Sure, you can buy from the Supply with any leftover coins, or play additional Black Markets if it was throned, but that still doesn't let you play any more cards.

Of course, there's probably a yet-unrevealed Reserve Card that will allow you to continue your turn, but Golem is the only edge-case that comes to my mind right now.

[pacovf]

TR-herald

Also Prince of Black Market with Prince of Draw/Duration Draw, etc

[GendoIkari]

Yes, Golem finding Black Market and a card-drawer or Throne Room-Herald finding Black Market and then a card-drawer were the edge cases I meant.

[eHalcyon]

Since there are now Duration-Attacks, I'm curious how to resolve the problem I experienced with a Duration-Attack fan card I designed for the "Online-Only Cards" thread.

Levy
Type: Action / Duration / Attack
Cost: $5
+$3,
--------------------
While this is in play, all cards cost $1 more.

For in-person play, the problem with this card is that it's too easy to not notice Durations in the areas of other players. If your mistake costed you a missed opportunity, it would be fine. Instead, your mistake advantages you, which is unacceptable. By the time you realize the mistake, no one remembers how to undo the error.

If your opponent discards his hand when he should have top-decked it, and you fail to point this out, should the players just go on and forget about it? This seems like the only way to consider the game state to continue to be legal.

A bigger problem is that your Duration will never stay in play when it isn't your turn.  Durations are cleaned up on the last turn they do something.  Levy gives you +$3 and then nothing else, so it will be cleaned up that turn and never affect your opponents.  You can fix that by following the example set by Swamp Hag and Haunted Woods, using "Until your next turn" instead of "While this is in play".

[Throwaway_bicycling]

Wow, you guys have been april fooled big time.  That isn't the real Haunted Woods Art.  Nice fake, though, but I can tell it's a shop due to some pixels here and there.  This one's the real deal:

Holy crap; he's right. The real art is totally in keeping with the fact that Amazon just launched pre-orders for Dominion: Adventures, and it turns out actually to be a Munchkin expansion.

Seriously, check it out and read the description on their site:http://www.amazon.com/Rio-Grande-Games-501RGG-Adventures/dp/B00TF7YMVW

DXV, this was the mother of all April Fool's jokes. You really had us going there.

[Donald X.]

If your opponent discards his hand when he should have top-decked it, and you fail to point this out, should the players just go on and forget about it? This seems like the only way to consider the game state to continue to be legal.

There is a forum for fan cards dude. This isn't it.

Forgetting Haunted Woods is an issue. People don't so much forget Swamp Hag - well someone may forget, but someone will remember. People sometimes forget Haunted Woods. Announce Haunted Woods loudly; watch people to make sure it hits them.

For your own cards, I recommend not doing anything like this. I mean what if people forget?

[Titandrake]

It's interesting that Haunted Woods both helps engines (because starting with an 8 card hand is bonkers, and to fully exploit it you need +Buy), while hurting engines (if you're drawing your deck, you're drawing most of your victory cards every turn), while helping them again (if you have spare actions left in your hand you can choose to reorder them such that you draw the actions first.)

This card is hard to judge...

[Witherweaver]

If your opponent discards his hand when he should have top-decked it, and you fail to point this out, should the players just go on and forget about it? This seems like the only way to consider the game state to continue to be legal.

There is a forum for fan cards dude. This isn't it.

Forgetting Haunted Woods is an issue. People don't so much forget Swamp Hag - well someone may forget, but someone will remember. People sometimes forget Haunted Woods. Announce Haunted Woods loudly; watch people to make sure it hits them.

For your own cards, I recommend not doing anything like this. I mean what if people forget?

I recommend downloading an app that makes ghost noises and playing it whenever anyone buys a card.

"And with $6 I'll buy a Gold"
"OooOooOooOooo....."

[JacquesTheBard]

Somehow, this card managed to make Scout even worse.

[theory]

Yeah I don't see Scout being a top card any more now that the Haunting Woods meta is upon us.

[werothegreat]

If your opponent discards his hand when he should have top-decked it, and you fail to point this out, should the players just go on and forget about it? This seems like the only way to consider the game state to continue to be legal.

There is a forum for fan cards dude. This isn't it.

Forgetting Haunted Woods is an issue. People don't so much forget Swamp Hag - well someone may forget, but someone will remember. People sometimes forget Haunted Woods. Announce Haunted Woods loudly; watch people to make sure it hits them.

For your own cards, I recommend not doing anything like this. I mean what if people forget?

I recommend downloading an app that makes ghost noises and playing it whenever anyone buys a card.

"And with $6 I'll buy a Gold"
"OooOooOooOooo....."

"Jinkies!"
"Velma's lost her glasses!"
"Ruh roh!"
"Zoinks!"
"The ghost was Donald X all along!"

*scooby-dooby-doo*
*where are you*
*upstairs takin' a poo*

[LastFootnote]

I think wero's finally lost it.

[werothegreat]

I think wero's finally lost it.

Now I'm on Wikipedia trying to figure out why in the hell a cartoon has a laugh track.

[jaketheyak]

"The ghost was Donald X all along!"

And he's wearing his 'stache!

[Asper]

Just to confirm, this basically prevents you from playing any more actions/treasures (edge-cases aside) after buying at the Black Market, correct?

There might be some kind of Reserve to help you (e.g. a Throne variant that sets aside an action and plays it on call), but currently, yes, it does. Well, unless you count Princed BM/ Guide.

[tailred]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but it looks as if this has a pretty nasty combination with Possession.

[werothegreat]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but it looks as if this has a pretty nasty combination with Possession.

"Oh, you didn't want a hand of all Copper?  TOO BAD"

[GendoIkari]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but it looks as if this has a pretty nasty combination with Possession.

"Oh, you didn't want a hand of all Copper?  TOO BAD"

Using it to put Copper on their deck probably isn't that smart. It means you didn't spend as much money as you could have to buy yourself a card. I don't think it makes Possession worse really. You leave them with a bad turn, so they buy nothing and Haunted Woods stops working.. that's what would have happened if you hadn't Possessed them anyway, just 1 turn sooner.

[blueblimp]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but it looks as if this has a pretty nasty combination with Possession.

"Oh, you didn't want a hand of all Copper?  TOO BAD"

Using it to put Copper on their deck probably isn't that smart. It means you didn't spend as much money as you could have to buy yourself a card. I don't think it makes Possession worse really. You leave them with a bad turn, so they buy nothing and Haunted Woods stops working.. that's what would have happened if you hadn't Possessed them anyway, just 1 turn sooner.

I don't understand what you're saying here. They have a bad turn, then you just do the same thing again on your turn (Haunted Woods -> Possession -> put garbage cards on their deck). Thus your opponent has garbage turns every turn for the rest of the game.

[werothegreat]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but it looks as if this has a pretty nasty combination with Possession.

"Oh, you didn't want a hand of all Copper?  TOO BAD"

Using it to put Copper on their deck probably isn't that smart. It means you didn't spend as much money as you could have to buy yourself a card. I don't think it makes Possession worse really. You leave them with a bad turn, so they buy nothing and Haunted Woods stops working.. that's what would have happened if you hadn't Possessed them anyway, just 1 turn sooner.

I don't understand what you're saying here. They have a bad turn, then you just do the same thing again on your turn (Haunted Woods -> Possession -> put garbage cards on their deck). Thus your opponent has garbage turns every turn for the rest of the game.

Unlike the Masquerade pin, you can actually keep buying stuff with a Haunted Woods/Possession pin.

[GendoIkari]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but it looks as if this has a pretty nasty combination with Possession.

"Oh, you didn't want a hand of all Copper?  TOO BAD"

Using it to put Copper on their deck probably isn't that smart. It means you didn't spend as much money as you could have to buy yourself a card. I don't think it makes Possession worse really. You leave them with a bad turn, so they buy nothing and Haunted Woods stops working.. that's what would have happened if you hadn't Possessed them anyway, just 1 turn sooner.

I don't understand what you're saying here. They have a bad turn, then you just do the same thing again on your turn (Haunted Woods -> Possession -> put garbage cards on their deck). Thus your opponent has garbage turns every turn for the rest of the game.

They can only do this if your deck is capable of drawing itself. In a typical deck, you're going to have an average hand for them to possess after your dead one. That average hand won't be likely to be able to get 5 dead cards in it. But I suppose it will still be strong with Possession. Could work out more like the Possession/Forge pin though; which is pretty uncommon.

[-Stef-]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but it looks as if this has a pretty nasty combination with Possession.

"Oh, you didn't want a hand of all Copper?  TOO BAD"

Using it to put Copper on their deck probably isn't that smart. It means you didn't spend as much money as you could have to buy yourself a card. I don't think it makes Possession worse really. You leave them with a bad turn, so they buy nothing and Haunted Woods stops working.. that's what would have happened if you hadn't Possessed them anyway, just 1 turn sooner.

I don't understand what you're saying here. They have a bad turn, then you just do the same thing again on your turn (Haunted Woods -> Possession -> put garbage cards on their deck). Thus your opponent has garbage turns every turn for the rest of the game.

They can only do this if your deck is capable of drawing itself. In a typical deck, you're going to have an average hand for them to possess after your dead one. That average hand won't be likely to be able to get 5 dead cards in it. But I suppose it will still be strong with Possession. Could work out more like the Possession/Forge pin though; which is pretty uncommon.

This is indeed a combo with possession. (unlike possession-forge, which has such bizarre requirements it will never work in practice)
I've been on the receiving end of this combo and can confirm it's very painful. The requirements are:

* both possession and haunted woods on the board
* a village
* a way to trash cards

Then you both spot this combo and go for it. One of you will be slightly faster then the other. You will possess, buy a copper, topdeck 5 bad cards and they have a dud turn. You will possess again, and now you get to play with their deck minus the 5 bad cards. That is probably good enough to draw the deck again and voila 5 bad cards on top again. You do need to buy a copper every time you possess them, so you should also include a way to get rid of that copper on your own turns.

All in all it's about on par with Possession-Ambassador and Possession-Masquerade - if you end up on the losing side you simply lose the game.
But if you both accept this race as 'the new game to play' it's still a fun one to play out. Just resign once you're blocked out in stead of letting the agony get to you.
In theory you could hope to buy so many coppers on the turns you still do get to play that your own deck becomes so bad they can't keep it up, but no... no thanks.

[werothegreat]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but it looks as if this has a pretty nasty combination with Possession.

"Oh, you didn't want a hand of all Copper?  TOO BAD"

Using it to put Copper on their deck probably isn't that smart. It means you didn't spend as much money as you could have to buy yourself a card. I don't think it makes Possession worse really. You leave them with a bad turn, so they buy nothing and Haunted Woods stops working.. that's what would have happened if you hadn't Possessed them anyway, just 1 turn sooner.

I don't understand what you're saying here. They have a bad turn, then you just do the same thing again on your turn (Haunted Woods -> Possession -> put garbage cards on their deck). Thus your opponent has garbage turns every turn for the rest of the game.

They can only do this if your deck is capable of drawing itself. In a typical deck, you're going to have an average hand for them to possess after your dead one. That average hand won't be likely to be able to get 5 dead cards in it. But I suppose it will still be strong with Possession. Could work out more like the Possession/Forge pin though; which is pretty uncommon.

This is indeed a combo with possession. (unlike possession-forge, which has such bizarre requirements it will never work in practice)
I've been on the receiving end of this combo and can confirm it's very painful. The requirements are:

* both possession and haunted woods on the board
* a village
* a way to trash cards

Then you both spot this combo and go for it. One of you will be slightly faster then the other. You will possess, buy a copper, topdeck 5 bad cards and they have a dud turn. You will possess again, and now you get to play with their deck minus the 5 bad cards. That is probably good enough to draw the deck again and voila 5 bad cards on top again. You do need to buy a copper every time you possess them, so you should also include a way to get rid of that copper on your own turns.

All in all it's about on par with Possession-Ambassador and Possession-Masquerade - if you end up on the losing side you simply lose the game.
But if you both accept this race as 'the new game to play' it's still a fun one to play out. Just resign once you're blocked out in stead of letting the agony get to you.
In theory you could hope to buy so many coppers on the turns you still do get to play that your own deck becomes so bad they can't keep it up, but no... no thanks.

Hmm.  Powerful enough to be worth mentioning on the wiki as a combo?

[Watno]

I just noticed you can still buy events without consequences when this is in play.

[GendoIkari]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but it looks as if this has a pretty nasty combination with Possession.

"Oh, you didn't want a hand of all Copper?  TOO BAD"

Using it to put Copper on their deck probably isn't that smart. It means you didn't spend as much money as you could have to buy yourself a card. I don't think it makes Possession worse really. You leave them with a bad turn, so they buy nothing and Haunted Woods stops working.. that's what would have happened if you hadn't Possessed them anyway, just 1 turn sooner.

I don't understand what you're saying here. They have a bad turn, then you just do the same thing again on your turn (Haunted Woods -> Possession -> put garbage cards on their deck). Thus your opponent has garbage turns every turn for the rest of the game.

They can only do this if your deck is capable of drawing itself. In a typical deck, you're going to have an average hand for them to possess after your dead one. That average hand won't be likely to be able to get 5 dead cards in it. But I suppose it will still be strong with Possession. Could work out more like the Possession/Forge pin though; which is pretty uncommon.

This is indeed a combo with possession. (unlike possession-forge, which has such bizarre requirements it will never work in practice)
I've been on the receiving end of this combo and can confirm it's very painful. The requirements are:

* both possession and haunted woods on the board
* a village
* a way to trash cards

Then you both spot this combo and go for it. One of you will be slightly faster then the other. You will possess, buy a copper, topdeck 5 bad cards and they have a dud turn. You will possess again, and now you get to play with their deck minus the 5 bad cards. That is probably good enough to draw the deck again and voila 5 bad cards on top again. You do need to buy a copper every time you possess them, so you should also include a way to get rid of that copper on your own turns.

All in all it's about on par with Possession-Ambassador and Possession-Masquerade - if you end up on the losing side you simply lose the game.
But if you both accept this race as 'the new game to play' it's still a fun one to play out. Just resign once you're blocked out in stead of letting the agony get to you.
In theory you could hope to buy so many coppers on the turns you still do get to play that your own deck becomes so bad they can't keep it up, but no... no thanks.

The bold part is where I get lost. Why would an average hand be likely to be good enough to draw the deck? Especially in a deck with at least 5 dead cards? Also, on top of needing to be able to draw your opponent's deck, you have to draw your own deck, so that you can reliably play both Haunted Woods and Possession every turn. And if you can draw both your own deck and your opponent's deck reliably, isn't that basically what's needed for the Forge pin? (Plus they need to have a Forge of course).

One other thing, if you do get this working, you wouldn't just need to buy a Copper every turn... you would have played all or most of your opponent's deck, so you could probably buy another Village or other engine piece.

*Edit* Never mind about the Forge thing, I just remembered that they can't actually play any cards for Forge to work; you have to make them draw their entire deck on your own turn with Governor or such.

[joel88s]

OK this can't be healthy, sitting here hitting refresh every 30 seconds....

[werothegreat]

I think what makes HW/Poss. better than Forge/Poss. is that you only need to draw 5 junk cards, not the entire deck.

[pubby]

The bold part is where I get lost. Why would an average hand be likely to be good enough to draw the deck? Especially in a deck with at least 5 dead cards?

The dead cards will always be in the discard pile once you get the pin going.

And if you can draw both your own deck and your opponent's deck reliably, isn't that basically what's needed for the Forge pin? (Plus they need to have a Forge of course).

Forge pin requires drawing their entire deck without putting any of their non-dead cards into play. This usually requires Governor, Council Room, or Procession, and by usually I mean never.

[pacovf]

First thing I want to look at, how good is the card without the attack bit? Terminal nothing now, Hunting Grounds next turn. Or, I think a useful thing for duration cards, playing one every turn is like playing.... a smithy every turn. But you need to get two. And this misses the shuffle more than smithy. And it costs 5. In return, you can maybe set up something where you're getting some monstrously good hands and some very mediocre ones - but I find that, at least with most of the other duration cards, I much prefer having them split than gobbed up together. (Tactician is the obvious exception)

I've been thinking about this. Let's call "Woods" the non-attack part of this card.

First thing, how many Durations miss a reshuffle due to their Durationiness? On average, exactly as many as the average number you play each turn*. So, if you play a Woods every turn, you will need to buy one more than if it didn't stay on play until your next turn.

*The well-known corollary to this is that, in a draw-your-deck engine, you need twice as many Durations as you intend to play every turn.

But!

To play a smithy every turn, you need to have smithy in your starting 5 card hand. While to play a Woods every turn, you need to have one in your starting 8 card hand. If we use the naïve approximation of buying 1 smithy per 5 cards in your deck and one Woods per 8 cards in your deck to allow playing one per turn, that means that for a 15-16 card deck you need just as many for both, and for a 24-25 card deck, you need one less Woods than smithies.

Buying less Woodses than smithies for larger decks is a double advantage: you can spend those buys and coins on other useful cards, and you will have less dead actions limiting your buying power (those dead smithies in your hand could have been a silver, etc.).

All this (and the possibility of using it as a pseudo-tactician) is likely not enough for Woods to jump from $4 to $5. But it's definitely not worse than smithy when playing one per turn.

[Minotaur]

Subtle but important point: when you "buy" a card, you subsequently "gain" it. In other words, the gaining comes strictly after the buying. No, this isn't stated in any of the rulebooks, but it's implied by the Mint FAQ in the Prosperity rulebook, and it's been explicitly confirmed by official tester Jeff Wolfe on BGG.

Here's one example of why it matters: Suppose you play Royal Seal, then buy a Mint. The Mint's "when you buy" effect triggers, trashing the Royal Seal. Then you gain the Mint, but since the Royal Seal is no longer in play its "when you gain" effect can't be used to put the Mint on top of your deck.

Confirmation that buying triggers a gain rather than being a certain type of gaining.  Therefore, you buy something, Haunted Woods kicks in, and whoops, Watchtower is on your deck, so you can't reveal it in response to gaining the bought card.

This was already correctly stated upthread, but without verification from Donald X himself.  (It came up earlier today and I wanted to double-check)

Can this information be added to the wiki?  (It should've been in the rule sheet, but so it goes.)

[Donald X.]

Subtle but important point: when you "buy" a card, you subsequently "gain" it. In other words, the gaining comes strictly after the buying. No, this isn't stated in any of the rulebooks, but it's implied by the Mint FAQ in the Prosperity rulebook, and it's been explicitly confirmed by official tester Jeff Wolfe on BGG.

Here's one example of why it matters: Suppose you play Royal Seal, then buy a Mint. The Mint's "when you buy" effect triggers, trashing the Royal Seal. Then you gain the Mint, but since the Royal Seal is no longer in play its "when you gain" effect can't be used to put the Mint on top of your deck.

Confirmation that buying triggers a gain rather than being a certain type of gaining.  Therefore, you buy something, Haunted Woods kicks in, and whoops, Watchtower is on your deck, so you can't reveal it in response to gaining the bought card.

This was already correctly stated upthread, but without verification from Donald X himself.  (It came up earlier today and I wanted to double-check)

Can this information be added to the wiki?  (It should've been in the rule sheet, but so it goes.)

Buying is not gaining. Buying is paying for the thing. Buying a card causes you to gain it, but that isn't timed like a "when you buy this" trigger. You buy it (paying); all when-buy triggers happen; you gain it; all when-gain triggers happen. I think people have extensively charted this somewhere.

[Minotaur]

Subtle but important point: when you "buy" a card, you subsequently "gain" it. In other words, the gaining comes strictly after the buying. No, this isn't stated in any of the rulebooks, but it's implied by the Mint FAQ in the Prosperity rulebook, and it's been explicitly confirmed by official tester Jeff Wolfe on BGG.

Here's one example of why it matters: Suppose you play Royal Seal, then buy a Mint. The Mint's "when you buy" effect triggers, trashing the Royal Seal. Then you gain the Mint, but since the Royal Seal is no longer in play its "when you gain" effect can't be used to put the Mint on top of your deck.

Confirmation that buying triggers a gain rather than being a certain type of gaining.  Therefore, you buy something, Haunted Woods kicks in, and whoops, Watchtower is on your deck, so you can't reveal it in response to gaining the bought card.

This was already correctly stated upthread, but without verification from Donald X himself.  (It came up earlier today and I wanted to double-check)

Can this information be added to the wiki?  (It should've been in the rule sheet, but so it goes.)

Buying is not gaining. Buying is paying for the thing. Buying a card causes you to gain it, but that isn't timed like a "when you buy this" trigger. You buy it (paying); all when-buy triggers happen; you gain it; all when-gain triggers happen. I think people have extensively charted this somewhere.

I already quoted your relevant statement to provide confirmation for the statement upthread.  And this is a good deal less well-known than some other things that are explained in the Haunted Woods rule sheet.  I think it belongs on the Wiki, even if it's too late to reprint the sheets.  So yeah, the information is out there, but is a lot more easily missed than the things that ARE separately explained.