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Author Topic: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman  (Read 14570 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2015, 11:50:33 pm »
+4

Philosophical question: Why is Talisman a Treasure, and Amulet an Action?
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Gherald

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2015, 12:08:14 am »
+2

Economic question: Why does Talisman cost $4, and Amulet $3?
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Asper

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2015, 07:07:46 am »
0

I recently opened Chancellor/Talisman on a Silk Road board to get some Silvers and avoid choking. There were no good alternatives.

Philosophical question: Why is Talisman a Treasure, and Amulet an Action?

If your question is why Amulet doesn't have a non-treasure-associated name, i have no clue. Sure, it can gain Silvers, but very few Treasures and very many actions do that. It certainly sounds like a Treasure.
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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2015, 08:15:53 am »
0

Philosophical question: Why is Talisman a Treasure, and Amulet an Action?

If your question is why Amulet doesn't have a non-treasure-associated name, i have no clue. Sure, it can gain Silvers, but very few Treasures and very many actions do that. It certainly sounds like a Treasure.

I think you can partially blame me for this one. Donald was looking for a more Adventures-y name for the card and I believe "Amulet" was one of my suggestions. It's possible I'm misremembering.
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werothegreat

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2015, 08:37:25 am »
+1

Philosophical question: Why is Talisman a Treasure, and Amulet an Action?

If your question is why Amulet doesn't have a non-treasure-associated name, i have no clue. Sure, it can gain Silvers, but very few Treasures and very many actions do that. It certainly sounds like a Treasure.

I think you can partially blame me for this one. Donald was looking for a more Adventures-y name for the card and I believe "Amulet" was one of my suggestions. It's possible I'm misremembering.

I like to think it was for alliterative purposes.
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Witherweaver

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2015, 09:33:34 am »
+2

Philosophical question: Why is Talisman a Treasure, and Amulet an Action?

If your question is why Amulet doesn't have a non-treasure-associated name, i have no clue. Sure, it can gain Silvers, but very few Treasures and very many actions do that. It certainly sounds like a Treasure.

I think you can partially blame me for this one. Donald was looking for a more Adventures-y name for the card and I believe "Amulet" was one of my suggestions. It's possible I'm misremembering.

I like to think it was for alliterative purposes.

Alright, I'll Activate my Amulet Action.
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Asper

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2015, 11:46:08 am »
+2

Philosophical question: Why is Talisman a Treasure, and Amulet an Action?

If your question is why Amulet doesn't have a non-treasure-associated name, i have no clue. Sure, it can gain Silvers, but very few Treasures and very many actions do that. It certainly sounds like a Treasure.

I think you can partially blame me for this one. Donald was looking for a more Adventures-y name for the card and I believe "Amulet" was one of my suggestions. It's possible I'm misremembering.

I like to think it was for alliterative purposes.

Alright, I'll Activate my Amulet Action.

That sounds like something from Yu-Gi-Oh...

"Ambassador! Attack Werothegreat Advisor's Amulet Action!"
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Marcory

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2015, 11:44:47 pm »
+6

Philosophical question: Why is Talisman a Treasure, and Amulet an Action?

Why is Farmland is a Victory card, while Hunting Grounds is an Action?
Why is Venture a Treasure, while Mission is an Event?
Why is Bank a Treasure, while Counting House and Moneylender are Actions?
Why does Moneylender not give you Loans?
Why are Bridge, Highway, and Crossroads Actions, while Tunnel and Silk Road are Victory cards?
Why can you not use Horse Traders to buy a Trusty Steed?
Why are Duke and Duchess interconnected while Prince and Princess have nothing to do with each other?
For that matter, why do we not yet have a Queen, Countess, Baroness, or Margravine?
Why does Abandoned Mine produce Coin directly, while [unabandoned] Mine needs to work with existing Treasure?
Why can't Smugglers procure items from the Black Market?


Doubtless others can come up with more interesting examples, but here are a few more odd card
juxtapositions for you to consider.

I think that the real answer is that Donald X' logic trumps that of mere mortals.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 11:56:14 pm by Marcory »
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Asper

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2015, 02:47:33 am »
+4

Why is Farmland is a Victory card, while Hunting Grounds is an Action?

Hunting Grounds can be cracked up for a VP card.

Why is Venture a Treasure, while Mission is an Event?

Because Venture is named to remind us of Adventurer.

Why is Bank a Treasure, while Counting House and Moneylender are Actions?

Legitimate question. Bank is a stretch for a Treasure allready.

Why does Moneylender not give you Loans?

That's a different kind of question.

Why are Bridge, Highway, and Crossroads Actions, while Tunnel and Silk Road are Victory cards?

Because localities have been different types of cards ever since the first game.

Why can you not use Horse Traders to buy a Trusty Steed?
Why are Duke and Duchess interconnected while Prince and Princess have nothing to do with each other?

Again, different kind of question. You can win a Princess' hand or a Horse in a Tournament, though.

For that matter, why do we not yet have a Queen, Countess, Baroness, or Margravine?

Wait.

Why does Abandoned Mine produce Coin directly, while [unabandoned] Mine needs to work with existing Treasure?
Why can't Smugglers procure items from the Black Market?

Again, not a question about naming conventions. Abandoned Mine, like all Ruins, uses a well known card arepresenting a certain archetype as its base. The only card most people can be surely assumed to know that is a locality (so it can be ruined) and that is associated with money is Mine. People can't be used as Survivors covers all the more complex cards with people on them.

I think that the real answer is that Donald X' logic trumps that of mere mortals.

Verily, Donald works in mysterious ways!
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DStu

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2015, 03:39:40 am »
+1

Out of all the workshop variants, I am pretty sure this is the one I buy the least.

Talisman is just a straight up bad card. I think the best is to directly compare it to workshop (itself a mediocre card): its biggest advantage over workshop is that it doesn't take up an action.

I would say the biggest advantage over WS is the point that it scales with +buy.  As said above, it is very situational, but there are the decks where
a) you want lots of cheap stuff, or have a way to make stuff cheap
b) you have lots of +buy
c) you can reliably draw your deck to collide the buys and the Talisman

now that sounds like already edge-casing it, but it's all the same sub-category: You are playing an engine with mostly cheap components.  That's still not the category: "Happens every third game where Talisman is in the kingdom".  So it's not a card where you lose on average when you always ignore it. But there are certain types of decks for which Talisman is the best WS-variant there is around, as it gives you one additional gain per buy, not only one per turn.  And if you plan to buy 3 or 4 cards for some turns, you get your value out of it.

Of course that's really the case with costs reducers, as when you plan to buy lots of cards, they better be cheap.  But also note that cost reducers usually want the same kind of decks as are optimal for Talisman anyway: things are cheap, they want buys, they profit from and enable engines.

I would say that is the bigger point, because "not using an action" might occure more often, on average it takes Talisman from a very bad card to a bad card. But that doesn't help you anything, in both cases you just don't buy it.  Scaling with +buy takes it, in this situations from a good card to the-best-card-you-can-get-for-this-purpose card.  Which is far more important as long as you are not forced to gain it.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 03:48:38 am by DStu »
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jomini

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2015, 09:39:19 pm »
+2

Talisman is weak without a strong setup, but it can give you some value gain/pile depletion that can be very helpful in select situations. For instance Forge/Talisman can be a cheap way to convert overdraw and light cash into province fodder (e.g. you have a Forge enabled engine with components at $4, spending a spare $4 on a Talisman can allow you to score provinces a turn delayed for $4; yes this comes a turn later and you could just forge Prov-> Prov instead ... but it is an option to try to eke some odds of a come from behind win). Likewise, it can play nicely with Procession where you can flood the deck with actions (e.g. more Prssn). When you care more about total value of the cards in the deck than total cash production (e.g. Forge, Salvager, Apprentice, Graverobber, etc.), the multiplicative effect of Talisman can lead to really quick ramp up.

Talisman is a beast at piling out on the sly. For the price of $4 (or so), Tr->Mine can triple the remainder of your buying power. If you have buys to spare (say I have a Margrave engine) this can lead to a lot of "safe" piles dying abruptly. For instance, if I have a $22 engine and I tank two silvers I go down to $20 (instead of up to $25 with a Plat) and spread over 5 buys, that let's me knock off $80 worth of cards - "two" entire untouched piles can go down without warning (in reality it is more likely something like gain 6 Tr and 8 Talisman or just gain 8 Talisman, buy a province). The non-linear scaling ramps up a lot faster than people tend to expect so you can very abruptly kill piles in 4-6 card range.

If the other guy is aware of this, then he isn't going to leave you a nice way to ramp up off a Mine, Iw, and pile before he has points. Thus I expect that for most folks getting burnt once or twice by an unexpected ramp up is enough to alter their play (say greening sooner or giving their deck more flexibility with gainers), but Talisman being there at all means you should be mindful of quick ramp ups.

The best generic support for Talisman I've found are Tr, Prssn, and Hwy. For fun, compare Talisman to the new card, Duplicate. Duplicate does its magic a turn later than Talisman, is worth $1 less for buying, requires an Action to play, and will miss more shuffles. That is a lot of penalty with only a couple of major benefits obvious - gaining up to $6, works on Green, works on any gain. Tr, Prssn, and Hwy can get rid (somewhat) of the penalty for gaining only $4 or less and make Talisman better. Gaining a Tr can be functionally close to gaining a second $5 - $8 action card, Prssn not only can play expensive cards when appropriate, but quickly turn mediocre $4s into power $5s. Hwy allows you to gain the big stuff (most notably more Hwy) and Talisman makes a very good buy on a busted hand where you miss $5 or to pick up when Hwy costs $3 and you have $5/2 buys. Rolling the dice to recover a whiffed Hwy buy is not at all bad, as a bonus the lack of +buy on Hwy means that Talisman may be able to function as a no-other-option +gain that can fuel megaturns (e.g. gain 2 Kc this turn, gain two Sab next turn).


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dondon151

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2015, 12:30:28 am »
0

Philosophical question: Why is Talisman a Treasure, and Amulet an Action?

I recall Amulet having a different name in playtesting.
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Chris is me

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2015, 07:23:00 pm »
0

I'll have more to say later, but one thing I wanted to say before I forgot. Talisman is pretty weak most of the time, but one facet of Talisman people don't take advantage enough is that it stacks well with itself. If you feel a need to buy lots of cheap 2-3 cost cards in particular, multiple Talisman can help with that a lot more than you'd expect.

I've found it most useful on good boards for Vineyard, Feodum, and to a lesser extent Gardens. It gets you mileage out of Highway even without strong +Buy on the board. It's not as bad as it looks, but it's not great either.

Games where you're rushing a cheap action, the Peddler pile, or a pricier action with Quarry in play can be decided by who bought Talisman sooner.

Just to follow up here. Was digging through my logs folder and I found a match where I used Talisman as a Gardens enabler, which in tandem with Market Square / Pawn, allowed me to get a deck above 60 cards by turn 16, winning with just 5 Gardens and the starting Estates. It's not a great match, I didn't play very well, but it's an example of how stacking Talisman makes it suck less when your main goal is to get a lot of cheap shit. http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150224/log.5363eea1e4b03d4f275f8625.1424812692155.txt
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iguanaiguana

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2015, 08:35:13 am »
0

Has anyone mentioned forager/talisman yet? I won a game last night by opening this way. Use talisman to to quickly empty the forager pile and after one or two talisman plays, trash talisman with forager. Focus on trashing a silver and gold also, and if all goes well you should have 7-8 foragers that produce at least 4 coin each. If you have more than you need, have forager trash forager. It probably won't work in all decks (my board also had potion from apothecary and tactician) but forager at least seems like a reason to give talisman a second glance.
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Witherweaver

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2015, 09:14:55 am »
0

Has anyone mentioned forager/talisman yet? I won a game last night by opening this way. Use talisman to to quickly empty the forager pile and after one or two talisman plays, trash talisman with forager. Focus on trashing a silver and gold also, and if all goes well you should have 7-8 foragers that produce at least 4 coin each. If you have more than you need, have forager trash forager. It probably won't work in all decks (my board also had potion from apothecary and tactician) but forager at least seems like a reason to give talisman a second glance.

I'm surprised if that isn't too slow most often.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2015, 09:47:54 am »
0

You are probably right. In the game I played, double tactician was the only way to increase handsize, so it wasn't exactly a great engine board... I was just excited because I think that was literally the first time I had ever bought talisman.
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Dingan

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2015, 07:30:48 am »
0

Talisman > KC, duh!  (Although it didn't actually do anything for me.)

Code: [Select]
---------- Dingan: turn 17 ----------
Dingan - plays Trade Route
Dingan - trashes King's Court
Dingan - buys Talisman
Dingan - gains Talisman
Dingan - draws Copper, Nobles, Great Hall, Silver, Great Hall
...

Code: [Select]
1st place: Dingan
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ehunt

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2015, 09:53:16 am »
0

Talisman > KC, duh!  (Although it didn't actually do anything for me.)

Code: [Select]
---------- Dingan: turn 17 ----------
Dingan - plays Trade Route
Dingan - trashes King's Court
Dingan - buys Talisman
Dingan - gains Talisman
Dingan - draws Copper, Nobles, Great Hall, Silver, Great Hall
...

Code: [Select]
1st place: Dingan

were you just raging at the hand or did you really want the talisman ?
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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2015, 10:20:31 am »
0

Talisman > KC, duh!  (Although it didn't actually do anything for me.)

Code: [Select]
---------- Dingan: turn 17 ----------
Dingan - plays Trade Route
Dingan - trashes King's Court
Dingan - buys Talisman
Dingan - gains Talisman
Dingan - draws Copper, Nobles, Great Hall, Silver, Great Hall
...

Code: [Select]
1st place: Dingan

were you just raging at the hand or did you really want the talisman ?

I think my hand was Colony - Colony - Colony - KC - Trade Route.  I had enough KCs in my deck to play all the actions my heart could desire, but I needed more stuff to trash with my 2 Trade Routes (it was worth like $5 or $6 at the time).  Something like that.  But it didn't really matter cus the game was close to an end and I was well ahead.
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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2015, 11:18:35 am »
+2

Talisman sucks and people saying it isn't weak are crazy.

I would like to resurrect this sentiment for everyone voting Talisman above Taxman.
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werothegreat

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2015, 11:38:17 am »
0

Talisman sucks and people saying it isn't weak are crazy.

I would like to resurrect this sentiment for everyone voting Talisman above Taxman.

Talisman is decent in Feodum games.  Otherwise you'd rather have a Duplicate.  And Taxman is a weaker Attack, but it's still an Attack, and is usually a must-buy.
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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2015, 01:33:18 pm »
0

Talisman sucks and people saying it isn't weak are crazy.

I would like to resurrect this sentiment for everyone voting Talisman above Taxman.

Talisman is decent in Feodum games.  Otherwise you'd rather have a Duplicate.  And Taxman is a weaker Attack, but it's still an Attack, and is usually a must-buy.
That's what advisor said about spy
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