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Author Topic: Engine Economies and the Limitations of Money Density  (Read 21388 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Engine Economies and the Limitations of Money Density
« on: March 26, 2015, 09:19:13 am »
+27

Engine Economies and the Limitations of Money Density

A point that I think a lot of players get to – and I know I certainly did – is to look at the world of Dominion in a Big Money Paradigm. What I’m talking about, in my case at least, is a concept I call “money density”. Basically, a rough measure of quality for a BM deck is something like “take your average coin production per card, multiply that by your average hand-size, and that gives you your average economic capacity per turn.”

This is perhaps a bit simplistic, but it really does give you a rough assessment of the capabilities of a big money deck. I will note that even when you are playing big money, there are lots of imprecisions to modelling things this way: card efficacy doesn’t, in general, scale linearly, unused money has no value, turn-to-turn variations are quite important, ancillary benefits of cards beyond coin-value are real, etc. Even within this Big Money Paradigm, there are lots of nuanced decisions to make.

When you are stuck in this mindset, it can be hard to think of why you would add “do-nothing” cards – a la Village – to your deck. Sure, the cantrip makes it not hurt so much, but it doesn’t actually help your money density, and you are potentially missing out on getting a better card – silver, at least, will do more for you. And in a Big Money deck, the extra action usually doesn’t do a lot for you – if you get to the point you’re needing one very often, you probably should have just bought fewer terminal actions. Or not play Big Money at all.

This is where the Engine Paradigm (or draw-your-deck if you want slightly less pithy but arguably more descriptive names) comes in. If you can get to the point where you are drawing every card in your deck every turn, the way you look at your economic output on a turn changes completely. Now, you don’t need to look at average coin per card; you can actually just add up the sum total of all economic production in your whole deck.

To illustrate this, let’s look at an example of adding a Gold (which is not what you want to do terribly often in engines, but is always available and gets the point across). Adding the gold in a Big Money Paradigm will increase your money density by the difference between $3 and your old average value, divided by the number of cards in your deck. So if you had a starting deck plus five silvers, your old density was 17/15 = 1.133, and you increase by (3-1.133)/16 = 0.117. Multiply that by 5 cards per hand, and you get .583 coin per turn on average. This is pretty good for a Big Money deck. It’s worth noting here that each successive gold will do less though – the next one only adds .103 per card, or .515 per hand. This is because the difference between where you were and the $3 of the Gold continues to shrink, and the impact of each card is less as your deck gets bigger.

If you’re drawing your deck, on the other hand, you simply get to add the full $3 to your ever-turn spending power. The next gold just adds $3 again, too. This is a lot more, and it gets to be a progressively bigger gap over time. So you can see that even treasures can get leveraged more if you are drawing your deck.

Now, there are reasons why it’s not quite so rosy for engines as the above might make it sound. As it relates to the discussion above, the most notable thing is that if you are adding payload cards which don’t help you to draw (like Gold), you will have to get more pieces that do so you can continue to draw your deck every turn (terminal payload also requires getting more villages). This diminishes the ability to really add as much economy as you might otherwise be able to. On the other hand, being able to add to your per-turn payload so quickly self-synergizes, exploding in on itself in a chain reaction – getting that extra $3 now means I have more that I’m able to spend next turn to keep increasing my economic capabilities without falling behind on draw. This ramping effect virtually always more than compensates for the need to get extra pieces to keep drawing, at least if you have the capability to get extra buys – otherwise making $30 on a turn doesn’t do much for me. On top of that, there are ancillary benefits – if there are cards which are much better in combination or in multiples, you get to reliably do that, and you get to hit them with your attacks every turn. Engines also give you better control of ending the game just when you want.

The real downside of engines, which might make you not want to go for one, is that they can be slow to set up. This, along with increasing the reliability of the engine, is why trashing and/or sifting is such a boon to the engine. It’s all about getting to that point where you are drawing your deck as quickly as possible, because once you are there, even if it takes a long time, even if you are forced in to buying victory points in less efficient chunks, the raw power of an engine’s chaining buildup, if one is possible on the board, is usually enough to overcome the potential speed deficit.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 07:18:01 am by WanderingWinder »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2015, 09:53:10 am »
+1

When you play, do you keep a count of your money density/total money?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2015, 09:56:57 am »
+1

When you play, do you keep a count of your money density/total money?
Money density: basically never, but I have a general feel?
Total money: in a draw engine, yeah, because it's the amount of money you are making every given turn - you need to know it to figure out what to buy anyway.

markusin

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2015, 10:21:40 am »
+9

I think recent discussions about card articles and stuff have signalled a need for more articles on the fundamentals of the game. It's always good to have a place where the benefits of engines are mentioned explicitly.
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pacovf

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2015, 10:27:57 am »
+1

Nice article.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2015, 10:29:54 am »
+1

When you play, do you keep a count of your money density/total money?
Money density: basically never, but I have a general feel?
Total money: in a draw engine, yeah, because it's the amount of money you are making every given turn - you need to know it to figure out what to buy anyway.

I guess in situations where, say, the possibility of a triple Province turn is relevant for end game tactics, you have to know exactly how much money your deck is capable of producing, but isn't it usually enough if you just play your cards and see how much you have every turn?

I think recent discussions about card articles and stuff have signalled a need for more articles on the fundamentals of the game. It's always good to have a place where the benefits of engines are mentioned explicitly.

There certainly is a need for more articles about engines in particular.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2015, 10:31:27 am »
0

You might not draw your deck every turn, though, or you might be still in the building phase.  You would need some estimate of how much money your deck produces, or how much you can expect to get each turn, if you're mapping out your buys.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2015, 10:37:48 am »
+2

When you play, do you keep a count of your money density/total money?
Money density: basically never, but I have a general feel?
Total money: in a draw engine, yeah, because it's the amount of money you are making every given turn - you need to know it to figure out what to buy anyway.

I guess in situations where, say, the possibility of a triple Province turn is relevant for end game tactics, you have to know exactly how much money your deck is capable of producing, but isn't it usually enough if you just play your cards and see how much you have every turn?
Well, that's how I know how much I have, but in this kind of deck, I often want to plan my buys turns in advance, so knowing I have 12 now lets me know I need to get X now, so I have 15 next turn to get Y,Z,Q next turn, so I can get B,R,F the turn after.

Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2015, 10:40:08 am »
+19

Well, that's how I know how much I have, but in this kind of deck, I often want to plan my buys turns in advance, so knowing I have 12 now lets me know I need to get X now, so I have 15 next turn to get Y,Z,Q next turn, so I can get B,R,F the turn after.

Going for Q looks really bad here. I mean, why do you even want R?
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Witherweaver

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 10:41:53 am »
+3

Well, that's how I know how much I have, but in this kind of deck, I often want to plan my buys turns in advance, so knowing I have 12 now lets me know I need to get X now, so I have 15 next turn to get Y,Z,Q next turn, so I can get B,R,F the turn after.

Going for Q looks really bad here. I mean, why do you even want R?

And, really, Q is strictly better than R. 
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2015, 10:46:57 am »
+1

I think you should prefer Moat over Q

Witherweaver

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2015, 10:50:07 am »
+7

I think you should prefer Moat over Q

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AdamH

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2015, 11:54:25 am »
0

I would think it's worth mentioning that engine players tend to get more control over when the game ends than big money players, which is also usually worth the extra setup time.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2015, 12:04:02 pm »
0

I would think it's worth mentioning that engine players tend to get more control over when the game ends than big money players, which is also usually worth the extra setup time.
It's in there. Last sentence of the penultimate paragraph.

markusin

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2015, 01:04:04 pm »
+3

I would think it's worth mentioning that engine players tend to get more control over when the game ends than big money players, which is also usually worth the extra setup time.
It's in there. Last sentence of the penultimate paragraph.
It's a blink-and-you-miss-it kind of line though. You also have you recognize that you've assumed the reader knows what you mean by end game control and it's significance. I think thr power of end game control can use it's own article if it doesn't have a good one already. It's one of those things always talked about in game reports and the help section, but there isn't a common reference point that can be used I don't think.
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AdamH

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2015, 01:21:29 pm »
+1

It's a blink-and-you-miss-it kind of line though.

Yeah I blinked  :-[

I guess that means I think it should be emphasized more, I guess...
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Chris is me

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2015, 02:00:27 pm »
0

This is very well written. Succinct, but thorough. Very useful for players learning how to make decisions tailored toward one kind of deck or the other - particularly a Big Money deck with a fair number of actions, but also the decisions involved with going full engine. Definitely should get on the site if that's still a thing.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2015, 06:10:38 pm »
+4

Well, that's how I know how much I have, but in this kind of deck, I often want to plan my buys turns in advance, so knowing I have 12 now lets me know I need to get X now, so I have 15 next turn to get Y,Z,Q next turn, so I can get B,R,F the turn after.

Going for Q looks really bad here. I mean, why do you even want R?

And, really, Q is strictly better than R.

I disagree.  Q is much tougher to use properly unless you also get a U.  R is much more flexible.
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liopoil

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2015, 07:19:55 pm »
0

It's a blink-and-you-miss-it kind of line though.

Yeah I blinked  :-[

I guess that means I think it should be emphasized more, I guess...
Agree, endgame control is one of the biggest things that make engine > BM. Engines play catch up vs. non-engine strategies; if they have control over when the game ends, they can make sure they have enough time to catch up. Similarly they can sneak 3-piles.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2015, 08:33:24 pm »
+2

I always thought we built engines for finger exercise.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2015, 11:05:14 am »
+10

When I started at Dominion, I needed exactly the opposite advice.

We were always building engines on every board. It was somewhat considered "spoiling the game" when you started to green, because then you'd end the fun for everybody.
Nobody ever started to green before you could double province *and* build on at the same time.

We had a very good laugh when Duke came out. Why would you ever buy that? This card only started to make sense when we read Swindler... you were supposed to transform those nice laboratories your opponent had into these overpriced curses.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2015, 11:57:02 am »
+4

We had a very good laugh when Duke came out. Why would you ever buy that?

I really, really hope that feeling about cards repeats in the next weeks. The discovery, that you value cards totally wrong.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2015, 09:48:17 am »
+2

So several people have brought up that pile control isn't very much explored here. They're right, of course, but I'm a bit puzzled - there are plenty of other reasons why you would want to go for an engine that I didn't really get into - I really wanted to focus on the differences in the economic paradigms here. If I wanted to really go in-depth on why you want to play an engine, I would need to elaborate on many points I gloss over above - the importance of access to extra gains, the ability to slow them down by attacking them often, etc.

As for pile control itself... when making the decision whether to go for an engine or not, having pile control is nice, but it's not usually a significant factor in deciding. The way that pile control really comes in for non-mirrors is when you end up buying Victory cards other than what the opponent is going for (most commonly, this means diving for lots of duchies when there are a couple of provinces left). I address this in the article, when I talk about buying less efficient sources of points (duchies are with .6 VP per coin, provinces are .75). I'm not even sure this is pile control, though I suppose it's definitely endgame control, which is the same concept, really.

But where pile control starts being enormously important is in engine mirrors.

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2015, 10:09:07 am »
+2

So several people have brought up that pile control isn't very much explored here. They're right, of course, but I'm a bit puzzled - there are plenty of other reasons why you would want to go for an engine that I didn't really get into - I really wanted to focus on the differences in the economic paradigms here. If I wanted to really go in-depth on why you want to play an engine, I would need to elaborate on many points I gloss over above - the importance of access to extra gains, the ability to slow them down by attacking them often, etc.

As for pile control itself... when making the decision whether to go for an engine or not, having pile control is nice, but it's not usually a significant factor in deciding. The way that pile control really comes in for non-mirrors is when you end up buying Victory cards other than what the opponent is going for (most commonly, this means diving for lots of duchies when there are a couple of provinces left). I address this in the article, when I talk about buying less efficient sources of points (duchies are with .6 VP per coin, provinces are .75). I'm not even sure this is pile control, though I suppose it's definitely endgame control, which is the same concept, really.

But where pile control starts being enormously important is in engine mirrors.

Sounds like a very fair point, I don't think your article should go into all that. It's fine the way it is.
But then maybe you should look for a more fitting title for your article.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2015, 10:24:03 am »
0

So several people have brought up that pile control isn't very much explored here. They're right, of course, but I'm a bit puzzled - there are plenty of other reasons why you would want to go for an engine that I didn't really get into - I really wanted to focus on the differences in the economic paradigms here. If I wanted to really go in-depth on why you want to play an engine, I would need to elaborate on many points I gloss over above - the importance of access to extra gains, the ability to slow them down by attacking them often, etc.

As for pile control itself... when making the decision whether to go for an engine or not, having pile control is nice, but it's not usually a significant factor in deciding. The way that pile control really comes in for non-mirrors is when you end up buying Victory cards other than what the opponent is going for (most commonly, this means diving for lots of duchies when there are a couple of provinces left). I address this in the article, when I talk about buying less efficient sources of points (duchies are with .6 VP per coin, provinces are .75). I'm not even sure this is pile control, though I suppose it's definitely endgame control, which is the same concept, really.

But where pile control starts being enormously important is in engine mirrors.

Sounds like a very fair point, I don't think your article should go into all that. It's fine the way it is.
But then maybe you should look for a more fitting title for your article.

Seems totally reasonable. Have any suggestions? Anyone?
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