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[popsofctown]

I heard how the best deck is to trash down to nothing, buy about six golds, and then and only then start buying Provinces.  It sounds pretty sweet.  I think that might even beat BMU sometimes.

What have you guys heard?

[liopoil]

"Ascension is way better"

So I agreed to play Ascension with them, because hey, I've never played Ascension before, maybe it's okay. I played it as if it were Dominion, trying to thin down and buy draw cards. I won, and then overheard them describe my strategy to someone else as "buying random cards". It was way worse than Dominion though.

[eHalcyon]

"Ascension is way better"

So I agreed to play Ascension with them, because hey, I've never played Ascension before, maybe it's okay. I played it as if it were Dominion, trying to thin down and buy draw cards. I won, and then overheard them describe my strategy to someone else as "buying random cards". It was way worse than Dominion though.

Are you sure they were talking about your strategy?  They might have just been describing how Ascension actually works.

[liopoil]

"Ascension is way better"

So I agreed to play Ascension with them, because hey, I've never played Ascension before, maybe it's okay. I played it as if it were Dominion, trying to thin down and buy draw cards. I won, and then overheard them describe my strategy to someone else as "buying random cards". It was way worse than Dominion though.

Are you sure they were talking about your strategy?  They might have just been describing how Ascension actually works.

Oh yeah, the having just 5 random cards to choose from none of which could be predicted each turn really bugged me. I got lucky that a couple trashers and draw cards showed up on my turn early on though.

[Kirian]

...then overheard them describe my strategy to someone else as "buying random cards".

Ascension is many things, but a game of strategy it is not.

One of these days I will actually write the article I've had brewing about strategy vs. tactics in deckbuilders.  Ascension is almost entirely about tactics.

[Chris is me]

I despise Ascension. I just hate it. Everything I like about Dominion is gone in Ascension. Two competing resource cards, a completely random and unpredictable Supply, no ability to plan a deck archetype at all with any consistent chance of winning. Dominion has luck, that you're in complete control over, in many ways it's a probability manage ment game. Ascension presents no option for that - it's just incredibly swingy.

It's a running joke in my group of friends to propose playing Ascension, to piss me off.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'd hate to turn this into a "ripping on Ascension" thread, but I have a gripe that applies to pretty much every other deck builder I've played as well.

Why does every designer besides DXV think that letting you play every card in your hand is a good idea? It severely limits the design space, the variety of decks that can be built, and the turn-to-turn tactics of the game. So many of the other things that make Dominion interesting strategically tend to get removed too (+buy, the whole greening mechanic), but the whole lack of +actions thing just makes the game seem so empty.

[Archetype]

I'd hate to turn this into a "ripping on Ascension" thread, but I have a gripe that applies to pretty much every other deck builder I've played as well.

Why does every designer besides DXV think that letting you play every card in your hand is a good idea? It severely limits the design space, the variety of decks that can be built, and the turn-to-turn tactics of the game. So many of the other things that make Dominion interesting strategically tend to get removed too (+buy, the whole greening mechanic), but the whole lack of +actions thing just makes the game seem so empty.

It seems to me that, while its not how deck builders began, having a cycling deck/discard pile and unlimited 'buys/actions' are the bare bones of the mechanic. I think most straight up deckbuilding games are just manipulation a of this system. Dominion limits the actions/buys and has VPs that slow down your deck. Ascension has dual currency and "permanents".

That said, Dominion is still my favorite pure deckbuilder. I think for a deckbuolder to be ultra successful now they have to add something on the side (e.g. Mage Knight, Eminent Domain).

[eHalcyon]

I'd hate to turn this into a "ripping on Ascension" thread, but I have a gripe that applies to pretty much every other deck builder I've played as well.

Why does every designer besides DXV think that letting you play every card in your hand is a good idea? It severely limits the design space, the variety of decks that can be built, and the turn-to-turn tactics of the game. So many of the other things that make Dominion interesting strategically tend to get removed too (+buy, the whole greening mechanic), but the whole lack of +actions thing just makes the game seem so empty.

My guess is that these designers (and fans of those games) consider it more fun if you get to play with everything you buy/draw.  I don't think the choice is necessarily bad.  It limits some design space, but it also simplifies it, which in turn means that they could add complexity elsewhere.  Whether they actually do this successfully is a different question.

[LastFootnote]

In games where cards are bought from a rotating supply (Star Trek DBG, presumably Ascension, etc.), there are card effects that let you manipulate that supply. So even in deck-building games where cards cannot give "+1 Action" or "+1 Buy" because those are unlimited resources, there are usually other resources to manipulate that Dominion doesn't have.

Note: I have never played Ascension and my one play of the Star Trek DBG was awful. I played the DC Comics DBG once; it was OK, I guess.

[A Drowned Kernel]

IIRC correctly the best Ascension has is a couple of cards that let you clear out a card from the rotating supply. And I think those might be one-shots.

[blueblimp]

I'd hate to turn this into a "ripping on Ascension" thread, but I have a gripe that applies to pretty much every other deck builder I've played as well.

Why does every designer besides DXV think that letting you play every card in your hand is a good idea? It severely limits the design space, the variety of decks that can be built, and the turn-to-turn tactics of the game. So many of the other things that make Dominion interesting strategically tend to get removed too (+buy, the whole greening mechanic), but the whole lack of +actions thing just makes the game seem so empty.

I speculate that the reasoning is that terminal collisions are unfun. As a beginner, it's easy to be over-worried about terminal collisions because they feel bad, and overbuy villages or underbuy terminals as a result. Even when knowing the game better, it still feels pretty bad to draw terminals together without a village, despite accepting that risk.

I personally view it as a necessary evil, like having mana costs in Hearthstone. The expansion to the design space is worth the occasional frustration with bad draws.

[qmech]

As a beginner, it's easy to be over-worried about terminal collisions because they feel bad, and overbuy villages or underbuy terminals as a result.

Does anybody start out underbuying terminals?  Overbuying Villages is definitely true though.

[Lekkit]

I enjoy Ascension. It's a lot more random and casual than Dominion, though. I think Legendary is a better version of Ascension, though. Although there are some slightly busted cards in that game.

[liopoil]

What? Terminal collision is great. Not only does it give you choices, but you can use it to blame your loss on luck!

[Teproc]

I enjoy Ascension. It's a lot more random and casual than Dominion, though. I think Legendary is a better version of Ascension, though. Although there are some slightly busted cards in that game.

Same. I played Ascension once, knowing beforehand what it was, and it was pretty fun, but Legendary is much, much better for me in almost every way. Love the semi-coop dynamic.

[sitnaltax]

As a beginner, it's easy to be over-worried about terminal collisions because they feel bad, and overbuy villages or underbuy terminals as a result.

Does anybody start out underbuying terminals?  Overbuying Villages is definitely true though.

Remember the early days, when there were people running around especially on BGG convinced that Big Money (not a BM-style strategy, but buying nothing but Treasure and green) was the best way to win? I think that's the reaction that comes out of "wait, I can't buy all these terminals. So then I don't buy villages, either. Wait a second, now I'm beating all my friends who are buying Woodcutter/Spy/Bureaucrat in an unfocused way."

[Lekkit]

I enjoy Ascension. It's a lot more random and casual than Dominion, though. I think Legendary is a better version of Ascension, though. Although there are some slightly busted cards in that game.

Same. I played Ascension once, knowing beforehand what it was, and it was pretty fun, but Legendary is much, much better for me in almost every way. Love the semi-coop dynamic.

I hardly ever play Ascension IRL anymore, since as you say, Legendary is much better. My biggest beef with that game is how it's co-op while not really being co-op. It's great fun to play with friends who know that the game isn't really co-op but super cutthroat. Or surprisingly enough, by oneself.

[Teproc]

Oh yeah it's really not a coop game at all, "semi-coop" is a bit of a misnomer I suppose. It's a competitive games where  sometimes, everyone loses. We definitely play as if everyone losing was better than someone else winning, which might not make sense thematically, but makes the game really fun.

[Kuildeous]

I'd hate to turn this into a "ripping on Ascension" thread, but I have a gripe that applies to pretty much every other deck builder I've played as well.

Why does every designer besides DXV think that letting you play every card in your hand is a good idea? It severely limits the design space, the variety of decks that can be built, and the turn-to-turn tactics of the game. So many of the other things that make Dominion interesting strategically tend to get removed too (+buy, the whole greening mechanic), but the whole lack of +actions thing just makes the game seem so empty.

I think that in the case of Ascension and Legendary, this rule must be in place. With the variance of the supply deck, it would be easy to find yourself in a situation where you have $8 and everything out there only cost $3 or less. You would then overspend so badly that it'd hurt. Meanwhile, after your turn, the next guy is able to buy the $8 uber card that came up after you overpaid for your $3.

I think that decision is actually good for this style of game.

[Asper]

I'd hate to turn this into a "ripping on Ascension" thread, but I have a gripe that applies to pretty much every other deck builder I've played as well.

Why does every designer besides DXV think that letting you play every card in your hand is a good idea? It severely limits the design space, the variety of decks that can be built, and the turn-to-turn tactics of the game. So many of the other things that make Dominion interesting strategically tend to get removed too (+buy, the whole greening mechanic), but the whole lack of +actions thing just makes the game seem so empty.

My guess is that these designers (and fans of those games) consider it more fun if you get to play with everything you buy/draw.  I don't think the choice is necessarily bad.  It limits some design space, but it also simplifies it, which in turn means that they could add complexity elsewhere.  Whether they actually do this successfully is a different question.

I don't even think it limits the design space. It just shifts. You can't do cards that have exclusively negative effects on play in Dominion, for example. The only reason Curses can give -1 VP is that you have to reveal them when scoring. I'm not claiming that what you gain from it is better, just that it adds options as it removes some.

[eHalcyon]

I'd hate to turn this into a "ripping on Ascension" thread, but I have a gripe that applies to pretty much every other deck builder I've played as well.

Why does every designer besides DXV think that letting you play every card in your hand is a good idea? It severely limits the design space, the variety of decks that can be built, and the turn-to-turn tactics of the game. So many of the other things that make Dominion interesting strategically tend to get removed too (+buy, the whole greening mechanic), but the whole lack of +actions thing just makes the game seem so empty.

My guess is that these designers (and fans of those games) consider it more fun if you get to play with everything you buy/draw.  I don't think the choice is necessarily bad.  It limits some design space, but it also simplifies it, which in turn means that they could add complexity elsewhere.  Whether they actually do this successfully is a different question.

I don't even think it limits the design space. It just shifts. You can't do cards that have exclusively negative effects on play in Dominion, for example. The only reason Curses can give -1 VP is that you have to reveal them when scoring. I'm not claiming that what you gain from it is better, just that it adds options as it removes some.

It limits design space in that now you can't have cards that let you play or buy more cards, because you can already play all your cards and buy as many cards as you want.  It is trivially true.  And as I said, limiting design space in this one direction allows the designers to add complexity elsewhere, exploring a different design space without making the game too complex overall.

[Asper]

I'd hate to turn this into a "ripping on Ascension" thread, but I have a gripe that applies to pretty much every other deck builder I've played as well.

Why does every designer besides DXV think that letting you play every card in your hand is a good idea? It severely limits the design space, the variety of decks that can be built, and the turn-to-turn tactics of the game. So many of the other things that make Dominion interesting strategically tend to get removed too (+buy, the whole greening mechanic), but the whole lack of +actions thing just makes the game seem so empty.

My guess is that these designers (and fans of those games) consider it more fun if you get to play with everything you buy/draw.  I don't think the choice is necessarily bad.  It limits some design space, but it also simplifies it, which in turn means that they could add complexity elsewhere.  Whether they actually do this successfully is a different question.

I don't even think it limits the design space. It just shifts. You can't do cards that have exclusively negative effects on play in Dominion, for example. The only reason Curses can give -1 VP is that you have to reveal them when scoring. I'm not claiming that what you gain from it is better, just that it adds options as it removes some.

It limits design space in that now you can't have cards that let you play or buy more cards, because you can already play all your cards and buy as many cards as you want.  It is trivially true.  And as I said, limiting design space in this one direction allows the designers to add complexity elsewhere, exploring a different design space without making the game too complex overall.

Uh. Yes. I don't actually know why i thought i had to add this comment. Sorry.

[werothegreat]

So I introduced the mythological deckbuilder I was working on to a local board gaming group, and one girl said that she found it fun at first, but got bored because the cards never changed like they did in Ascension.

I honestly had no response to that.

[eHalcyon]

So I introduced the mythological deckbuilder I was working on to a local board gaming group, and one girl said that she found it fun at first, but got bored because the cards never changed like they did in Ascension.

I honestly had no response to that.

You're using a changing supply like Dominion, right?  Some people prefer tactics over strategy.  How long is your game compared to Dominion?  A shorter playtime would help with people like her, because the game can end before they get bored and then the game with a new board will be interesting again.  But it's just as well to leave it be.

@Asper, no need to apologize.