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Kirian

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Article: Forager
« on: July 17, 2013, 11:01:48 pm »
+6

What the heck, I'll try my hand here.


Forager

So you may have heard of freeganism, which encourages the eating of discarded food; perhaps you've even read Kim Stanley Robinson's Science in the Capitol trilogy, which includes explorations of freeganism and urban foraging in an environmental catastrophe.*  Or maybe you were a dumpster diver yourself in college.  None of this is really related to Forager the card, but the theme is there:  Forager allows you to profit from other people's castoffs.

There are only a few non-terminal trashers.  Apprentice, Junk Dealer, Counterfeit, and Upgrade are all at the $5 price point, making them unlikely openers. Lookout, at $3, gives you no benefit other than trashing and cycling, and can cause you to trash and cycle cards you would rather have kept, and Loan, at $3, can also fail to bad luck (or poor planning).  Rebuild is a one-card engine in a class of its own.  Forager plays quite differently from any of these, because it gives you a benefit--but that benefit is shared with your opponents, making it tricky to play.

When should I buy it?

Like other trashers, Forager shines in engine games; it's not uncommon to see a Forager/Forager opening when a good engine is available.  It also shines against junking attacks, turning the junk into extra cash.  In both cases, because it is non-terminal, it's a relatively safe buy.  It's usable in Big Money with terminal cash, but not as great--or as necessary--with terminal draw.

When should I play it?

Early and often if you want the most mileage out of it.

What should I trash with it?

Now we come to the tricky portion.  Like City, Forager can "level up" as the game goes on--and just like City, the leveling is equal for everyone.  It's not worth any money until at least one Treasure, probably Copper, has been trashed with it.  And if you trash a Copper now, your opponent can trash an Estate next turn and get a free $1 from your trashed Copper.  Each trash of a new Treasure with Forager is a bit of a gamble... if your opponent is also going after Foragers.  If you're the only one going after Foragers, though, you can get away with trashing higher-power Treasures--just be aware that your opponent is $3 away from picking up his/her own Forager.

If you're going to use multiple Foragers on a turn, and you're planning to "level up" the Foragers this turn--for instance, by trashing a Silver--make sure the Silver is the first thing you trash, to get the extra cash.

What doesn't work with Forager?

Playing Forager decreases your hand size by two, which means that in the absence of at least some drawing, you'll never play more than three per turn, and what's left over isn't very much.  If there's better trashing available, Forager may not be of great use; in a very thin deck Forager becomes a dead card.  If Forager is your main trashing and you are planning to get +Buy elsewhere, don't be afraid to clear out your deck, then trash Foragers away as well.

Forager works with:

Engines in general
Fortress (http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130701/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1372685537098.txt)
Kingdom Treasures or Spoils
Opponents' junking attacks
Cards that will cause Treasures other than Copper to be trashed (Counterfeit, Governor, Mine, Spice Merchant, etc.)
Tactician, Wharf, or other source of large hand size

Forager works poorly with:

Opponents' Foragers
Alternate-VP and other slogs
Opponents' hand-reduction attacks

*It also includes a scene where the freegan-sympathetic character breaks into his own workplace at NSF.
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RTT

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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2013, 12:38:58 am »
+1

nice article,
also forager works well with menagerie and draw to X cards.
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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2013, 12:47:07 am »
0

I feel like Goons deserves a mention.
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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2013, 01:58:26 am »
0

Draw-to-X is a great combo.
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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2013, 02:33:02 am »
0

It's usable in Big Money with terminal cash, but not as great--or as necessary--with terminal draw.
Are there simulator results for this? I feel like BM/Forager is probably worse than BM.
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DG

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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2013, 05:39:04 am »
+1

This is a friendly card for conspirators, scrying pools, peddlers and other action engine cards. The +buy can also be very useful in assembling engine cards. However when your engine is complete you might find yourself yourself running out of cards to trash. If you use the +buy to get a copper to trash next turn you can keep reaping the +coins from the forager but you effectively lose the +buy. Make sure you are not relying on that +buy for a late vp surge from your forager engine.
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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2013, 06:25:39 am »
+6

Forager makes me wonder why Trade Route is terminal.
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Awaclus

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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2013, 06:29:32 am »
0

This is a friendly card for conspirators, scrying pools, peddlers and other action engine cards. The +buy can also be very useful in assembling engine cards. However when your engine is complete you might find yourself yourself running out of cards to trash. If you use the +buy to get a copper to trash next turn you can keep reaping the +coins from the forager but you effectively lose the +buy. Make sure you are not relying on that +buy for a late vp surge from your forager engine.
Though, it's worth noting that when you buy Coppers, your last "free" +buy from Forager is delayed and instead of using it for a Province/X turn now, you can use it for a double Province turn later. And it's always possible and usually a good play to start trashing useful cards in the late game, at least on the last turn if not earlier.
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igelkott

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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2013, 12:47:19 pm »
+3

You didn't mention Graverobber and Rogue.... These are very bad for Forager because they steal your very valuable treasures out of the trash....
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Mr Anderson

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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2013, 02:51:37 pm »
+2

Quote
Like City, Forager can "level up" as the game goes on--and just like City, the leveling is equal for everyone.

Just a small and insignificant thing: I would rather compare Forager with Trade Route since they are more similar than Forager and City (both give +1 Buy, I know, City does as well, but only if it is activated; both require you to trash a card; both give you money dependent on either the number of different treasures in the trash or bought victory cards). The sentence would still make sense if you changed City to Trade Route.
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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2013, 03:40:06 pm »
0

You didn't mention Graverobber and Rogue.... These are very bad for Forager because they steal your very valuable treasures out of the trash....
Rogue is a mixed bag, since it's probably the thing that gets your good treasures into the trash, but then takes them out.  Since it's terminal, if you're not the one going for it, it might be more likely that you play more Foragers while Silver/Gold is in the trash than your opponent?  Still, don't intentionally trash Silver/Gold to power up Forager if Rogue is on the board.  If your opponent doesn't have Foragers, getting Rogues might be a good way for you to power yours up.
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Markov Chain

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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2013, 07:56:22 pm »
0

Also add draw-to-X as cards which work well with Forager, since they allow you to recover from the lost hand size.  Forager/Library should be a good combo, as Library will draw a lot of money and the +Buy from Forager allows you to use it.
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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2013, 07:14:16 pm »
+2

You didn't mention Graverobber and Rogue.... These are very bad for Forager because they steal your very valuable treasures out of the trash....
I once played a game with my family with the actual cards (and thus no game log to refer to) but was able to successfully use graverobber with forager to trash a gold with forager then retrieve it from the trash the same turn.  This is not a strategy that works without outside help (again, no log so I do not remember exactly what I used to enable my forager/graverobber combo) but it can show that Graverobber and Rogue are not necessarily bad for forager, and Rogue fits the BM terminal cash mentioned by Kirian in the original article.
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Destierro

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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2013, 02:13:53 am »
+1

Forager works extremely well with cultist, turning into a grand market with extra cycling. You get +3 cards, +X money (by the time you start trashing cultists, you should make sure to have a silver in the trash), and get an action all to boot. When you've won the ruins war this is a great way to get rid of excess cultists. Also, Forager is much better in games with junking attacks, such as ruins. In games with additional kingdom treasures, forager shines even more. Loan is a great example, speeding up trashing while also adding a new unique treasure to the trash. Spoils is also an option, but unless you have a way to keep up with the trashing of forager, I doubt it would be worth it.

Now we come to the tricky portion.  Like City, Forager can "level up" as the game goes on--and just like City, the leveling is equal for everyone.  It's not worth any money until at least one Treasure, probably Copper, has been trashed with it.  And if you trash a Copper now, your opponent can trash an Estate next turn and get a free $1 from your trashed Copper.  Each trash of a new Treasure with Forager is a bit of a gamble... if your opponent is also going after Foragers.  If you're the only one going after Foragers, though, you can get away with trashing higher-power Treasures--just be aware that your opponent is $3 away from picking up his/her own Forager.

I think that while this is something to think about, it isn't overly important. If your opponent does not have a forager, than it is beneficial to try and "level up" your own foragers to at least +1. In my games I found that trashing a copper early (sometimes even over estate) is better than waiting to burn through your estates to trash coppers.

Forager is what Trade Route tried to be. It is easier to activate, trashes much quicker due to being non terminal, and gets to be a powerful source of money later in the game. Because it's non terminal, it's a safe pickup in any game that includes non draw junkers. All in all, one of my favorite 3-cost cards. I am inclined to think that it should cost 4, just because in 95% of all cases, it's straight up better than Trade Route.

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werothegreat

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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2015, 11:56:50 pm »
0

Sorry to necro this, but I think it's good to put up on the wiki, but I think it should mention Potions (more fodder once you're done buying Alchemy cards) and explain a little more why opponents' Foragers are bad.
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Chris is me

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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2015, 03:09:18 pm »
0

Since this article was written pretty much forever ago, I think I'll just add my comments on it to the wiki directly once it's up. Forager is probably one of my most bought cards in any kingdom and I was thinking of writing a whole article on it myself someday. It's useful in almost every game.

I wouldn't say it's particularly bad for Big Money, except perhaps Smithy BM. While yes, trashing is less valuable in Big Money, and cards like Chapel are actually slowing you down, Forager provides a lot more immediate benefit for a lot less of an opportunity cost. Essentially in the early game, you can trash Copper without making your hand worth any fewer points, and you get to trash an Estate for some money immediately. Also, while it doesn't help if you draw it dead, the non-terminalness of this card is another huge benefit. You get some money, a crappy card out of your deck, and +Buy without using your action, which would draw you more cards that you can use with that +Buy! Softer terminal draw in particular (Courtyard, Catacombs, Journeyman, and ESPECIALLY Library) works well with Forager in a mostly BM strategy.

Finally, more emphasis on its excellent price is needed. You can open Forager / almost anything and hit the ground running right away without collision being a problem. It's one of the best cheap trashers.

Since this is two years old (does the OP even hang out here anymore?), I can just incorporate these suggestions into the wiki later if people don't think they are dumb.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 03:10:34 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2015, 04:00:48 pm »
0

Since this is two years old (does the OP even hang out here anymore?)

 :o

Just a bit.
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Kirian

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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2015, 04:34:30 pm »
+1

Since this is two years old (does the OP even hang out here anymore?)

 :o

Just a bit.

Every once in a while I show up.

I would likely rewrite this whole thing, but at the same time I've fallen out of practice with Dominion, so any article of mine should be taken with multiple grains of salt.
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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2015, 04:47:01 pm »
+1

Since this is two years old (does the OP even hang out here anymore?)

 :o

Just a bit.

Every once in a while I show up.

I would likely rewrite this whole thing, but at the same time I've fallen out of practice with Dominion, so any article of mine should be taken with multiple grains of salt.

That's ok, I love salt. It's so tasty. Truthfully, people think it's weird how much salt I put on things.

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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2015, 05:54:31 pm »
0

Since this is two years old (does the OP even hang out here anymore?)

 :o

Just a bit.

Every once in a while I show up.

I would likely rewrite this whole thing, but at the same time I've fallen out of practice with Dominion, so any article of mine should be taken with multiple grains of salt.

How about a pillar of salt?
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AJD

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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2015, 02:35:55 pm »
+4

I would likely rewrite this whole thing, but at the same time I've fallen out of practice with Dominion, so any article of mine should be taken with multiple grains of salt.

How about a pillar of salt?

How about a lot of salt?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2015, 02:41:11 pm »
+1

I would likely rewrite this whole thing, but at the same time I've fallen out of practice with Dominion, so any article of mine should be taken with multiple grains of salt.

How about a pillar of salt?

How about a lot of salt?

I see what you did there.

Though I think you should capitalize the "L".
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Re: Article: Forager
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2015, 08:29:02 am »
+3

Yeah with Forager, the question is almost never "Do I want Forager?" but rather "How many extra Foragers do I want?".
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