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[qmech]

All this to say, the bar to impress the community seems pretty high these days.

6/10, would read again.

[hvb]

Nice impulse, Flipside. I have the feeling this thread and some of Wero got the discussion into motion a bit.

[jsh357]

Flipside is the glue that holds this community together.  He is our hero, the one we deserve and need.

[enfynet]

Flipside is the glue that holds this community together.  He is our hero, the one we deserve and need.

I thought the community was held together by WanderingWinder?

[Witherweaver]

Holy crap, this threads still on topic!

We all appreciate you keeping the quality of posts low so that this thread can remain relevant.

[hvb]

Oh and while the king was looking down
The jester stole his thorny crown

[AdamH]

So I've been thinking about this for a while.

Between this thread and the Adventures previews, there's been a lot of activity on the forums recently, and an increase in Dominion-related posts. This is probably a good thing. But I don't think we've gotten any better at talking.

I started a thread a while ago, hoping to contribute to some good Dominion-related discussion. The intent of the thread was to highlight two-card interactions that had interesting and/or useful synergy, enough that you should probably look out for it when you're playing just about any game with those two cards. I gave a few examples, and some more people came in with good examples, and there was intelligent discussion on the examples given. This looked like a great start to a great thread.

Some people posted two cards that didn't quite have that great synergy, though it may look like it. Others chimed to constructively correct them. This is also awesome.

Some people gave interactions like [specific card]/[type or class of cards]. This wasn't exactly the spirit of the thread, since that kind of discussion probably belongs with the discussion on [specific card], but at least it was constructive and had some value.

But then the Chancellor jokes, and the Scout jokes, and the censored-redacted jokes, and the combos that are anti-synergies posted as jokes; even discussion on edge cases which starts out constructive quickly becomes pedantic and cumbersome. The thread got derailed so quickly, and so incredibly much that the two or three actual card combos posted afterward were buried in a sea of off-topic rambling. After a thread gets off-topic, it's so hard to get it back on that it usually requires direct intervention from theory or else the thread just goes off on its own little tangent in its own direction until it gets bored, falls asleep where it is, and in the best case is never seen again.

Best case? Never seen again? Yeah exactly, because if someone reads that thread and doesn't know much about Dominion, the best metric they have of telling the good ones from the bad ones are the +1 counts, and those aren't helpful. A thread like that, which started as a way for someone to quickly read through some card pairs and have their brain tickled, is now potentially destructive and misleading for a new player to read.

Sure, some people have some good laughs and press the +1 button, this only encourages people to keep making the same jokes so they can get more +1s, so these jokes keep coming up, and keep coming up, and keep coming up. Look, I don't mind the jokes -- go ahead and make them, but what I didn't realize until recently is that this is making it nearly impossible to actually talk about Dominion.

That's a real cost, and I don't think I'm alone in saying this: reading the same joke for the thousandth time is not worth the cost of having a conversation about Dominion.

The Adventures preview threads have even gotten derailed significantly, and even though I know there are relevant posts in there, I've stopped reading them because I don't want to look back 3 pages to before the giant argument on commas that I skipped over to get some context for what I'm reading. It's so frustrating because I want to read what people have to say about the cards, but the culture here is such that I can't do that.

So this post has been pretty much whining so far, but don't fear! I have an idea for something we might be able to do about it, and I think identifying the problem is important because I can see similar things that have happened in my IRL gaming group -- I was talking about this with one of my friends from there and she had an idea from somewhere on Reddit where this was also an issue.

What if we had some kind of tag for certain threads to mark that they are for serious discussion? You could post [serious] in the title of the thread as a signal for people to keep the discussion on topic. We can still have our talk about Dominion without a bunch of people coming in and yelling their same tired jokes so loud that we can't hear each other anymore. Please, go make those jokes in your own thread that I can tune it out without it ruining my discussion.

I'm using some harsh words here, it's because I'm really disappointed about all of this. I used to brag to people about the forums here, how the community was really good at exploring the strategic depths of Dominion and avoided the common problems most online communities have with trolls and such; it was a selling point for Dominion when people tried to tell me that Big Money was unbeatable and Dominion is multiplayer solitaire. I know many of the same people have been here for a while, so I would strongly hope that we're capable of implementing something like this and keeping ourselves to it.

Unless there are any objections, this weekend I'm going to start a new thread, basically the same thread I linked above only with the serious tag. I'll weed through the old thread and find all of the bits that were good and reference them, and maybe we can have some more discussion. I feel like that thread had lots of potential.

[theory]

I think your idea about a [serious] tag has come up before, but it doesn't seem to have been implemented.  I wholeheartedly agree and think it's a great idea.

We could use some discussion on what [serious] entails.  In my view, it would be 1) no jokes; 2) no going on irrelevant tangents (e.g., commas).  Is anything else that should be included?

[AdamH]

We could use some discussion on what [serious] entails.  In my view, it would be 1) no jokes; 2) no going on irrelevant tangents (e.g., commas).  Is anything else that should be included?

2) irrelevant tangents for sure. I realize this isn't exactly helpful, but there comes a certain point where discussion of edge cases becomes off topic. I have no idea how to identify this point, though. It's probably subjective; all I know is that I think it should be less than what it is, but not zero. Yup, not helpful at all.

If anything else should be included, I might want something about keeping criticism constructive, but I haven't had a chance to organize my thoughts on this to my satisfaction -- it's a bigger topic and I don't have anything resembling an answer so I'm staying quiet on that for now. Maybe it doesn't make sense to put it under the serious tag, either.

[JW]

The Adventures preview threads have even gotten derailed significantly, and even though I know there are relevant posts in there, I've stopped reading them because I don't want to look back 3 pages to before the giant argument on commas that I skipped over to get some context for what I'm reading. It's so frustrating because I want to read what people have to say about the cards, but the culture here is such that I can't do that.

Having more moderators who can split off-topic discussions into their own threads would be useful for this kind of thing.

[Donald X.]

What if we had some kind of tag for certain threads to mark that they are for serious discussion? You could post [serious] in the title of the thread as a signal for people to keep the discussion on topic. We can still have our talk about Dominion without a bunch of people coming in and yelling their same tired jokes so loud that we can't hear each other anymore. Please, go make those jokes in your own thread that I can tune it out without it ruining my discussion.

In my experience, if this has any moderation behind it, it doesn't work, it just sucks. It is more fun to participate when you are not punished for what you say. You type up your reasonable post and also have a joke because you are that kind of guy and then it's like, oh do I have to edit that part out? And censoring yourself sucks but fortunately next time you can avoid that experience by not posting at all.

I am of course one of those people you are complaining about. I mean you aren't complaining about my jokes, which are beyond reproach, but you know, I come in and say my witty thing. So, I would like to do that, and not to feel like I'm going to get banned for it, and not to feel like I'm just getting away with it because people don't want to scare me away.

There are ignore lists. I mean I don't know if we have them, but they are a thing in the world. The posters you identify as just clownin' around, you reduce to a thing that you could click on if you wanted to see their post. I've never actually tried them myself, being good at scrolling, but some people swear by them.

You could remove some of the reward for jokes, by getting rid of respect. It seems like it's mostly just used to indicate the funniest posts. Then people would quote a post and say lol and that would eat up more space but you know, not as often.

If "serious" is pursued, it could be a subforum rather than a tag. Then it's easy to avoid for people who don't want to get banned for being funny. You could take this further and make it read-only except to an invited list of serious players. And then let them joke around because you know they mostly won't. Then people would make threads outside of that forum for replying to threads in that forum, but that's fine, you got your jokes isolated. They will do that anyway, whether it's threads or a forum. I mean man. If there's a "serious" tagged thread, why risk it? I can make a safe thread for replying in, even if I wasn't going to be all that non-serious.

[Witherweaver]

Honestly, I like the jokes.  I like the serious content, too, and I don't really have any problem with them all mixed together.  I think it's better that way.  A sort of "don't post here unless you have something worthwhile to say" idea runs into the problem of "worthwhile" being subjective.  I mean, sure, you can say the one-liner running jokes are just "junking" the thread, and (for example) Wandering Winder's posts are almost certainly going have something valuable in them, but in between there there has to be some grey area. 

You can say some of the jokes are old, repetitive, not innovative, and I see your point, but really I think a lot of people on this forum are witty and clever, and part of the reason I actively read this is because it makes me laugh a lot.

For me, threads having off-topic discussions isn't a big issue.  I mean, sure, we talked about commas in the previews thread.  But we also talked about the cards.  I don't personally think the comma discussion prevented discussing the cards. 

Edit: Ninja'd by Donald, basically saying what I was thinking in a better way, as usual.

[Donald X.]

2) irrelevant tangents for sure. I realize this isn't exactly helpful, but there comes a certain point where discussion of edge cases becomes off topic. I have no idea how to identify this point, though. It's probably subjective; all I know is that I think it should be less than what it is, but not zero. Yup, not helpful at all.

Man Adam, stick to the topic! If you want a thread for discussing what should be allowed in serious-tagged threads, make it in Feedback. This thread is for complaining about the lack of quality posts. And yes this post is off-topic too, but I'm not the one advocating no off-topic posts, so there.

[AdamH]

Sure, "no jokes" may be a little too much. My article on Jack is the most "serious" thing I've ever written on the forums IMO and it had jokes all throughout.

A subforum may very well be more appropriate than a tag. I honestly don't know.

I would think that defining the spirit of [serious] and trying it out might be the best way to discover what it should mean. I've identified some issues I have and hoping [serious] might correct them, but of course it's not just about what I want. I'm just trying to articulate my thoughts and suggest things that will make life better.

[jsh357]

I think it would be best to get rid of respect or only allow an OP to get respect, but that's just me.  A lot of the jokes on the forum are clear respect mines.  Another solution?  Stricter rules specifically in the Articles, Game Reports, and Simulation forums.  Those are really the ones that need it.

In truth, though, some of this is just one of the big downsides of forums.  I have been using web forums since the mid 90s, and the longer a community exists, the more injokes and flippant attitudes toward 'serious' things appear.  It's human nature, I think, and you can only police it so much without the forum just becoming a dead, dry place.  Believe me, I have seen that happen to a forum I used to love, and it did the world no favors.  Look at it this way: it's a great thing that there are as many posts here as there are.  That means there are people who still post on a Dominion forum, which means, even if they aren't always having serious discussion, they are interested in talking with other people who like this cool thing too.

The comma thing was embarrassing, though, and I even hated the comma because grammar used to be my job. 

[Polk5440]

You could remove some of the reward for jokes, by getting rid of respect. It seems like it's mostly just used to indicate the funniest posts. Then people would quote a post and say lol and that would eat up more space but you know, not as often.

I do not like the idea of a serious tag. The default for a thread should be [serious].

Removing respect is not really a solution. People thumb jokes. The people want jokes. The people get jokes.

If people who participate on this forum want serious Dominion analysis, use the +1 to thumb those posts that say anything constructive about Dominion. Not just those that are insightful or 100% correct or by top players. I am on the top 10 +1-ers list because I try to thumb all relevant Dominion posts I read to encourage more of what I want to read about when I come to this forum: Dominion Strategy. I wish more people did the same.

[werothegreat]

Punctuation isn't grammar.

Anyway, I can see where AdamH is coming from, but honestly I've found most of the stuff in the Adventures Previews entertaining - while there have been a couple Scout joke posts, for the most part, people have been posting new jokes, in addition to a lot of interesting ideas about the new cards.

This isn't something you're going to be able to enforce.  When it is enforced, it just makes people mad.  Take, for example, the polandball subreddit.  A reddit ostensibly devoted to being silly and stupid and joke-y.  They are SO fucking touchy about making sure very single comic follows their insane list of rules - no this, no that, can't do this, none of this over there - and while you could argue that it's led to higher quality posts, honestly, all it really does is make posts that conform to the rules, which can make no sense, or just not even be funny or interesting.  There have been plenty of polandball comics which conform quite strictly to the rules, but are, if not incomprehensible, just kind of... lame.

What I'm saying is, this kind of enforcement doesn't encourage serious posting, it just discourages creativity.

[LastFootnote]

I think jokes are great. I think running gags (Scout jokes, Mint/Mine, Moat?) are the real problem. People need to stop beating those dead horses. I try to do my part by not upvoting them.

I like the respect system. It gives me a good gauge for how interesting people find a specific fan card, for example. I think it would be just great if there were two parallel respect systems. One for "this post made me laugh" and one for "this post made me think/this post was well written/I agree strongly with this". That may sound weird, but I bet we'd get used to it.

What constitutes an "edge case" or tangent is often purely subjective. Deleting posts because they're slightly off-topic is a recipe for bad times. Go try to post on Smogon if you want an example. I think moderators splitting side discussions off into new threads is a far better solution.

EDIT: Also, I think it's perhaps misleading to say that derailment is responsible for the end of thoughtful discussion on a subject. If people have things they want to say, it's easy for them to say them and get the thread back on track. I think what you're seeing is threads that fill up with derailed comments because nobody has anything they want to write about the original topic. Getting rid of derailments won't necessarily keep actual discussion going longer.

[werothegreat]

I like the respect system. It gives me a good gauge for how interesting people find a specific fan card, for example. I think it would be just great if there were two parallel respect systems. One for "this post made me laugh" and one for "this post made me think/this post was well written/I agree strongly with this". That may sound weird, but I bet we'd get used to it.

I like this.  Do this.  Two arrows, one with a brain and an exclamation mark over it, the other with a smiley face over it.

[Witherweaver]

I think jokes are great. I think running gags (Scout jokes, Mint/Mine, Moat?) are the real problem.

I really don't think it's a problem. Is it so hard to just pass over them?

Also, if we ban Mint/Mine jokes, what will become of Sudgy?!
 

[Polk5440]

In truth, though, some of this is just one of the big downsides of forums.  I have been using web forums since the mid 90s, and the longer a community exists, the more injokes and flippant attitudes toward 'serious' things appear.  It's human nature, I think, and you can only police it so much without the forum just becoming a dead, dry place. 

Before Adventures was announced, I was expecting this forum to die off. But if expansions keep coming out and the game keeps growing, the forum can, as well.

[Polk5440]

Game Reports is the section of the forum that handles beginners/experts divide quite well. There is a Help! subforum for beginners and experts can post advanced stuff in the main game reports area. Experts comment expertly on experts' game reports and people give more basic comments in the Help! subforum depending on what the OP seems to need.

What about trying some divides like that elsewhere? Like have a "beginner's" or "learning the game" subforum in General Discussion?

[jsh357]

Punctuation isn't grammar.

That's true, but brevity is the soul of wit.  A guy named Billy Shakesbad, I think, said something to that effect.

[Witherweaver]

Punctuation isn't grammar.

That's true, but brevity is the soul of wit.  A guy named Billy Shakesbad, I think, said something to that effect.

No poetry tangents!

[AdamH]

I certainly wouldn't like to deal with enforcing something like this, if we have to go that far then yeah I agree, it sounds like a nightmare and isn't any fun. I haven't +1-ed a Scout joke in a really long time but that by itself isn't doing it, so here we are.

But I was thinking something more along the lines of the tag meaning "hey, I'd like to keep this discussion on topic, please" -- I'd like to think that with this crowd that would be more effective than anything else, since we actually seem to respect each other. I'd really like to think that if I started a thread and bolded that quote at the top of it, that we could do it.

honestly I've found most of the stuff in the Adventures Previews entertaining

Clearly there needs to be a balance of people like you (and many others) who enjoy this and others who can potentially have their experiences ruined by it. There doesn't seem to be any doubt that there are people who enjoy it, but I'd be willing to bet that there are just as many people out there (probably more) who don't; we just don't hear from them because they're either turned off by it and never post, or don't post much in general, or sometimes are just drowned out by the tangent that's going on.

What is that balance? Well we can talk about a whole bunch but I think it would be much more helpful to try it out and see what people like too. Is there anyone that thinks that doing this with an open mind is a bad idea?