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Author Topic: Always Losing.  (Read 14128 times)

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Seprix

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Always Losing.
« on: January 13, 2015, 01:00:12 am »
0

I know the cards. I know the strategies. But I lose to people who are new and thus should know less about the game all the time, who follow strategies that I'm pretty sure I know are wrong. Is every good player deciding to restart all of a sudden, or do I just suck now? How do I even improve now? I'm not winning anything anymore, and my losing isn't helping me improve a bit.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 02:48:01 am by Seprix »
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Awaclus

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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2015, 01:24:08 am »
0

You improve by playing more.
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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2015, 01:44:55 am »
+1

You improve by complaining.

No, but seriously, one thing to do is analyze your mistakes and figure out what your opponent did correctly.  Sometimes it's not easy, but if you can break it down step by step that helps.  Knowing what's in your deck, what you've played this shuffle, how many gains/buys you and your opponent have, and understanding the tempo of the game you're in are big things.  You can 'know all the strategies' and still not be playing a deck effectively. 

Monkey see, monkey do is also a decent tool.  Try watching a good player like MicQsenoch play a few games. Think about what you'd do on his turns.  Watch what he does. What was better, and why?  He's not always going to be correct, but you can make a reasonable assumption that he has a good reason for his plays.  Of course, doing this does not automatically improve how you play.  The point is to pick up habits, understand why decisions are made in a general sense.  Every game is different on some level, so you have to improve your overall judgment.

Finally, you have to abandon pride a bit.  Face the facts that you aren't a top player and have a lot to learn.  Wins are not something you are entitled to--you have to actually improve at the game to get there, and sometimes that means changing ways you think about the game when they aren't working out.

But what do I know, I'm just a bear.  I mean, a guy.
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Elanchana

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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2015, 02:44:24 am »
+6

Losing streaks happen. Losing streaks suck. Losing streaks are also... not the end of the world.

So, sure, YMYOSL and all that. But maybe you're like me and don't want to look back at your previous games because it would mean reliving the failure and embarrassment. So to improve your playing in the future, I'd recommend a few things:

1. The Adam Horton method. When you get a board, pinpoint all attacks (and their counters), trashing (and its reliability and speed), villages (true vs. forced/unreliable and cantrip vs. disappearing), draw (and its significance), and +buy. Locating all these attributes, including their absence, will make it easier to formulate a strategy.

2. The theatre student method, as I call it: goal, tactics, obstacles. Defining your goal could be as simple as "I want to build an engine" or as specific as "I want to draw a hand of KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge". Then come up with tactics you'll use: buying as many of a certain card as possible, junking up vs. slowing down your opponent, etc. This includes your opening cards. Finally, think of your biggest obstacles - bad draw, curse attacks, losing splits, and the like - and how you'll handle or avoid them.

3. Combine these two methods by knowing what will and won't work in your deck. If there are no villages on the board, terminal cards lose a lot of their value. If there is no trashing, junking/cursing attacks - and defense against them - become much more valuable. If the engine you're building has a lot of virtual coin attached, maybe you don't want to spend your $6 on a Gold. Know what you want and get it.

As you know, I am VERY far from an expert on this, but I have recovered from several losing streaks and I can at least tell you what works for me.
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Awaclus

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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2015, 02:51:23 am »
0

your goal could be as simple as "I want to build an engine"

That's not your goal. Building an engine is a means to reach your goal of playing your key cards often and/or connecting your key cards that need connecting. Don't build an engine without a purpose.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 02:53:39 am by Awaclus »
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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2015, 02:53:04 am »
0

My goal is to always get the most points or end the piles before my opponent can win.
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Awaclus

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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2015, 02:57:02 am »
0

My goal is to always get the most points or end the piles

Not both?
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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2015, 03:16:44 am »
+1

My goal is to always end the most piles.

FTFY  ;D

Titandrake

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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2015, 03:29:22 am »
+9

I haven't watched your games, but it's very likely that you're finding the correct strategies and executing them poorly.

This doesn't mean you're a bad player, because pretty much everybody executes strategies poorly. Some people just execute them less poorly than others. Sometimes, this means reordering cards revealed by Cartographer incorrectly. Other times, it means making a bad call on whether to trigger a reshuffle.

Let's put things this way: suppose we replaced your opponent with a bot from the simulator. This bot makes the exact same buy decisions as your high level strategy, but follows these play rules:

- play all Action cards that give +1 Action or more
- play as many terminals as possible
- play all treasures and buy something

Then, I'd say you should be able to get at least 55-60% win rate against this hypothetical opponent, depending on the board, because all those micro-decisions from deciding when to reshuffle, how to build a deck when you're behind vs ahead, different sequencing of actions, etc. should add up to an advantage for you.

Now, that's a bit of a pointless hypothetical, but here's the more interesting corollary: if you decide on a worse strategy, but execute it extremely well, you can still beat a stronger strategy, or beat bad luck.

---

At the start of the game, you want to ask yourself what your ideal deck is going to do. This could be "play a Butcher every turn", or "cycle through lots of cards with mass Stables, with one +Buy to pick up more Stables", or "hit $8 every turn using mostly treasures". Then, make sure that every buy goes towards that goal. Every deck should have a focus/lynchpin that it's founded on - if you can't say what you want your deck to be doing, you're gonna have a bad time.

If your crazy elaborate engine doesn't come together in time, then oh well. You at least have a crazy elaborate half-engine, and maybe you tone it down a notch next time and build a more modest engine. It's better than starting with a crazy elaborate engine blueprint and ending with a modest flower pot with a half-finished rocket booster instead of a flower.

Look, I lost the metaphor a while back. Bottom line, I think committing to silly, harebrained ideas and pushing them as much as you can tends to make you a better player, since it gives you an appreciation for when simple things are better, while leaving yourself open to crazy nuttiness.

I...think that was entirely different from the point I was planning to write out when I started this post, but oh well.

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jaketheyak

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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2015, 04:10:54 am »
+8

I honestly think you're playing with the wrong attitude if you're so dismissive of your opponents' intelligence like that. They're all idiots that play stupid strategies, but they keep beating your expert playstyle because... reasons. Riiight.
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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2015, 07:14:14 am »
+6

I know the strategies.

Can I be your student?
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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2015, 11:16:41 am »
+7

But maybe you're like me and don't want to look back at your previous games because it would mean reliving the failure and embarrassment.
You would improve a lot more by not thinking of lost games as "failure and embarrassment". Every good player in the world has lost a lot of games.

I lose to complete (only gamewise) idiots all the time, who follow dumb strategies
Disparaging your opponents like this is detrimental, not only to your improvement at Dominion, but to being a nice person.
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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2015, 10:59:11 pm »
0

Even cards as bad as Thief and Saboteur can be the right plays sometimes. If your opponents are managing to win, reconsider if you're really so sure that their strategies are wrong.

Personally, I'm still really inexperienced, and I often find myself falling back on certain simple "rules" for cards to get or not to get based on my evaluation of the board and assume my opponents don't know what they're doing if they ignore them. But when those opponents win regardless, I have to acknowledge that that rule may not have been as absolute as I thought, that my opponent may have understood the "rule" and yet seen some good reason to violate it, and that I have to give more consideration in the future as to what would really be the way to go in similar situations.
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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2015, 03:30:14 am »
+3

Post some logs here or in the Help board where you think you clearly had the best strategy but lost anyway.  Even the process of writing something like that will often help you see things you've missed before.  And if it doesn't cause you to have inspiration yourself then sooner or later someone will look through the log and tell you whether you were just unlucky.
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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2015, 01:02:56 pm »
+1

Even cards as bad as Thief and Saboteur can be the right plays sometimes.
Saboteur isn't a bad card, as such, just extremely situational. It's essentially a card that only works as an engine payload - it needs to be played at least once a turn to work.
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Throwaway_bicycling

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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2015, 09:47:59 pm »
+2

Post some logs here or in the Help board where you think you clearly had the best strategy but lost anyway.  Even the process of writing something like that will often help you see things you've missed before.  And if it doesn't cause you to have inspiration yourself then sooner or later someone will look through the log and tell you whether you were just unlucky.

I am not the OP, but I just looked at some of the games on Salvager, and I feel this one might be an interesting starting point:

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150112/log.54109627e4b0750ebc1f6911.1421094317185.txt

(I will now switch to addressing OP.)

Lots could be said here, including the point that you committed suicide there at the end (draining Colonies when behind), but my general sense reading over this game is simply: I just really don't understand the strategy. Your opponent did not play flawlessly or anything, but I can articulate the basic strategy: Big Money using Apprenticed Silver for draw.

Now, whether or not it's the best strategy on the board (I'm pretty sure it's not) you can see where it's going, note that it's making progress, and even think of how to optimize it. This is much less easy for me to do for your game. You start by Foraging things (okay, that's kind of a plan of sorts), then go deep into the Wandering Minstrel pile...then buy some money (not a great match for WM by itself), buy some Cities and, yeah, have enough stuff and a slim enough deck to get some Colonies by the (untimely) end. But overall, I just see somebody buying a bunch of cards that are "good" with no strong cohesive plan.

Disclaimer: I am not a great player by any means, so I will leave it to those people to give you better advice than I can, but I recognize the style here since it is kind of what my losing games look like. :-)
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Seprix

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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2015, 12:39:04 am »
0

Post some logs here or in the Help board where you think you clearly had the best strategy but lost anyway.  Even the process of writing something like that will often help you see things you've missed before.  And if it doesn't cause you to have inspiration yourself then sooner or later someone will look through the log and tell you whether you were just unlucky.

I am not the OP, but I just looked at some of the games on Salvager, and I feel this one might be an interesting starting point:

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150112/log.54109627e4b0750ebc1f6911.1421094317185.txt

(I will now switch to addressing OP.)

Lots could be said here, including the point that you committed suicide there at the end (draining Colonies when behind), but my general sense reading over this game is simply: I just really don't understand the strategy. Your opponent did not play flawlessly or anything, but I can articulate the basic strategy: Big Money using Apprenticed Silver for draw.

Now, whether or not it's the best strategy on the board (I'm pretty sure it's not) you can see where it's going, note that it's making progress, and even think of how to optimize it. This is much less easy for me to do for your game. You start by Foraging things (okay, that's kind of a plan of sorts), then go deep into the Wandering Minstrel pile...then buy some money (not a great match for WM by itself), buy some Cities and, yeah, have enough stuff and a slim enough deck to get some Colonies by the (untimely) end. But overall, I just see somebody buying a bunch of cards that are "good" with no strong cohesive plan.

Disclaimer: I am not a great player by any means, so I will leave it to those people to give you better advice than I can, but I recognize the style here since it is kind of what my losing games look like. :-)

I didn't really have a plan for that game in particular. There was no draw, really. Of course, I didn't really look at Apprentice when there was a shiny Forager card. I should have picked up one Forager card for sure, for the +buy, but my main trashing should have come from Apprentices.

My sad sorry gameplan was to draw my deck. Since there were a bunch of cantrips (expensive ones mind you), this was not going to work. So my next idea was to go for a City rush, except I didn't go for that early enough, so it was half hearted and stupid at that time. Overall, I think a BM Apprentice deck was the best option there, with maybe Forager for that crucial +buy to get more money or actions. But this is all speculation. I'd have to play this kingdom about 20 times to know every nuance about it.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2015, 02:38:31 am »
0

I have to admit, it is a tough board. The only three options I can see (each one using Forager) are BM-Apprentice with Feodums and Silvers for draw, Cities, or BM with some kind of terminal silver. Although Fortune Teller and Scavenger are fine terminal silvers, I doubt that terminal silver does much for you in a Colony game. Wandering Minstrel will do nothing for the first two decks and have a pitiful impact on the third, so you can safely skip it. Inn and Walled Village are poor options as well.

Some great players such as Stef can often build amazing engines around Apothecary, but I don't see that happening here. It's the only real source of draw, so it will still be heavily limited by the non-copper cards. Building a deck around copper simply will not work when trying to buy colonies, and the only source of +buy is Forager, which necessitates trashing your coppers.

This board is very, very weak.
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Seprix

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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2015, 02:50:20 am »
0

I have to admit, it is a tough board. The only three options I can see (each one using Forager) are BM-Apprentice with Feodums and Silvers for draw, Cities, or BM with some kind of terminal silver. Although Fortune Teller and Scavenger are fine terminal silvers, I doubt that terminal silver does much for you in a Colony game. Wandering Minstrel will do nothing for the first two decks and have a pitiful impact on the third, so you can safely skip it. Inn and Walled Village are poor options as well.

Some great players such as Stef can often build amazing engines around Apothecary, but I don't see that happening here. It's the only real source of draw, so it will still be heavily limited by the non-copper cards. Building a deck around copper simply will not work when trying to buy colonies, and the only source of +buy is Forager, which necessitates trashing your coppers.

This board is very, very weak.

Cities is very slow, and BM w/ Terminal Silver is the wrong move here. It seems Apprentice/Feodum is the way to go here. Maybe even a Province Rush is better than going for Colonies here since it would take a long time to even get up to $11 consistently. But if you end up buying all the Silvers up quickly, maybe City becomes viable, and then things might get interesting.

As for Apothecary, I can see something like that being used here, since it scouts for you. But for Apothecary to be any good, you have to have actions to use, and not dumb Silver to clog up your deck. All the action building here is pitiful and sad, it seems. Not to mention the Potion buy.

Buying Wandering Minstrel was a very poor choice.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 02:53:44 am by Seprix »
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Burning Skull

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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2015, 03:06:46 am »
0

I'd open Potion Forager here, and throw in an Apprentice and a Feodum (probaly only one) later. Seems pretty fast actually.
Apprentice allows to start greening early, since you can trash Provinces when you are ahead in points.

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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2015, 11:23:54 am »
+1

I played a few test games on this board with a thin-deck money + Forager + Apprentice strategy.  Open Forager/Scavenger, get a second Forager soon after, Apprentice on first 5, and money otherwise with a second Apprentice somewhere along the way.  Use the Scavenger to topdeck Forager early on, Apprentice or Platinum late.  Don't be afraid to drop Gold or even Platinum to Apprentice.  Foragers can be worth $4 per play, and if the deck gets really thin you might buy Copper just to feed your Forager.  I get 5-6 Colonies in 20-22 turns this way, which isn't amazing, but this is a pretty weak board so perhaps it's good enough. 

More generally, I have to question the folks knocking terminal silver here.  I find Scavenger's cycling and topdeck ability great on this board.  Sure it's only $2 when you play it, but it lets you play your other good cards far more often (Forager early, probably Platinum late). 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 11:26:38 am by theblankman »
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Awaclus

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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2015, 11:35:10 am »
+1

More generally, I have to question the folks knocking terminal silver here.  I find Scavenger's cycling and topdeck ability great on this board.  Sure it's only $2 when you play it, but it lets you play your other good cards far more often (Forager early, probably Platinum late).

I think that it's not generally bad in Colony games. You still need Silvers most of the time anyway, and Scavenger's ability is very good.
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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2015, 12:16:50 pm »
+3

I've found that the more I take my time and think every move out, the more I win. When I try to rush through a game, even if I think I'm optimally playing a strategy, I usually lose. That's just me though.
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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2015, 12:35:58 pm »
+3

One thing that you should always keep in mind in weak kingdoms with Apprentice is that if you jump out to an early lead, you can drain the most valuable VP pile pretty quickly by trashing VP -> buying VP.

EDIT: I'm out of practice but 5 Colonies in 18 turns probably isn't that bad.
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150115/log.516d4fd3e4b082c74d7b96c1.1421347148441.txt
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 02:07:28 pm by dondon151 »
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Re: Always Losing.
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2015, 07:51:47 pm »
0

One thing that you should always keep in mind in weak kingdoms with Apprentice is that if you jump out to an early lead, you can drain the most valuable VP pile pretty quickly by trashing VP -> buying VP.

EDIT: I'm out of practice but 5 Colonies in 18 turns probably isn't that bad.
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150115/log.516d4fd3e4b082c74d7b96c1.1421347148441.txt

Okay; I declare this board solved. :-) I also saw Forager/Salvager to start, and assumed you would be trashing Gold or whatever 5 cost card you bought when you didn't get 6, but I also assumed you might need a village or two to get cranking. Guess not. In the mirror, I definitely would have lost to the Champ, since I would have wasted a turn or two being inefficient, but I felt I would have been within striking distance of the right plan.

Anyway, this board had +Buy, trashing, and arbitrarily good draw if you catch on to Apprentice. Salvager is gravy. So the plan would revolve around those strengths.
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