Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Awaclus]

vote: Awaclus for making no sense

Because scum likes to make no sense?

normally not, but this case is different. Many people support the color plan, it's not suspicious for Awaclus to do it too; and the plan is worse, so scum has a lot of interest in going through with it. Until Awaclus explains me why, I'll assume that motivation for him.

But that's the problem: I can't explain why, because that would make the plan pointless. Would you believe me if I flipped town?

[Witherweaver]

[silverspawn]

vote: Awaclus for making no sense

Because scum likes to make no sense?

normally not, but this case is different. Many people support the color plan, it's not suspicious for Awaclus to do it too; and the plan is worse, so scum has a lot of interest in going through with it. Until Awaclus explains me why, I'll assume that motivation for him.

But that's the problem: I can't explain why, because that would make the plan pointless. Would you believe me if I flipped town?

I would. are you suggesting that we lynch you to proof your plan?

[silverspawn]

*prove

I should stop mixing those up

[chairs]

Another problem with the color plan - if we lynch a yoshi today that should be in tonight's group, how do we allocate? do we just move down the list to the next yoshi? we're going to run out of yoshis at some point, or end up with scum collision - hell, if we use a list, scum might have the opportunity (depending on what their fake claim yoshis are) to explicitly arrange to be all 3 of the 1-shots on a given night through NKs.

tl;dr: the color plan has some potentially significant flaws that make it inferior to the random plan, even though the random plan irks me with its randomness.

[chairs]

vote: Awaclus for making no sense

Because scum likes to make no sense?

normally not, but this case is different. Many people support the color plan, it's not suspicious for Awaclus to do it too; and the plan is worse, so scum has a lot of interest in going through with it. Until Awaclus explains me why, I'll assume that motivation for him.

But that's the problem: I can't explain why, because that would make the plan pointless. Would you believe me if I flipped town?

Unless there's a hidden role (which there isn't, because this setup is Open, or it's Bastard and not RMM), there is no special advantage to the color plan that outweighs the concerns from same.

[Awaclus]

vote: Awaclus for making no sense

Because scum likes to make no sense?

normally not, but this case is different. Many people support the color plan, it's not suspicious for Awaclus to do it too; and the plan is worse, so scum has a lot of interest in going through with it. Until Awaclus explains me why, I'll assume that motivation for him.

But that's the problem: I can't explain why, because that would make the plan pointless. Would you believe me if I flipped town?

I would. are you suggesting that we lynch you to proof your plan?

No, because if I suggest the lynch myself, then it has no informational value for town and that would suck and I'm not sure if my plan is good enough to be worth it. But if you're mislynching me anyway, then you should do the color plan.

Unless there's a hidden role (which there isn't, because this setup is Open, or it's Bastard and not RMM), there is no special advantage to the color plan that outweighs the concerns from same.

There is. Well, the special advantage isn't really connected to the colors, but rather, just the fact that using the 1-shot Doctors is controlled and not random. And I don't think there's a better way to control it than the colors.

[Awaclus]

To clarify, I'm saying that there is a special advantage, not that there is a hidden role.

[Witherweaver]

Another problem with the color plan - if we lynch a yoshi today that should be in tonight's group, how do we allocate? do we just move down the list to the next yoshi? we're going to run out of yoshis at some point, or end up with scum collision - hell, if we use a list, scum might have the opportunity (depending on what their fake claim yoshis are) to explicitly arrange to be all 3 of the 1-shots on a given night through NKs.

tl;dr: the color plan has some potentially significant flaws that make it inferior to the random plan, even though the random plan irks me with its randomness.

There's a fix to that concern.  XP keeps the list and only assigns each night's protectors, along with the next-in-line in case we mislynch one of the dudes. 

[silverspawn]

Another problem with the color plan - if we lynch a yoshi today that should be in tonight's group, how do we allocate? do we just move down the list to the next yoshi? we're going to run out of yoshis at some point, or end up with scum collision - hell, if we use a list, scum might have the opportunity (depending on what their fake claim yoshis are) to explicitly arrange to be all 3 of the 1-shots on a given night through NKs.

tl;dr: the color plan has some potentially significant flaws that make it inferior to the random plan, even though the random plan irks me with its randomness.

There's a fix to that concern.  XP keeps the list and only assigns each night's protectors, along with the next-in-line in case we mislynch one of the dudes.

agreed, this is not a problem

[EFHW]

Random dice rolling is flawed because:

1) We have no idea what is happening and the IC will die.

To expound:

1) We don't know that anyone at all in the entire game wil protect the IC.
2) We don't know how many targeters the Watcher should expect to see, so his/her information is USELESS.
3) We aren't forcing scum to fakeclaim into the 1-shot doctor pool.
4) There is zero accountability for town.

I'm still catching up on reading, but I want to respond to this now.  Yes, everything ashersky says here is true.  By having each person roll a personal die to decide whether to protect or not gives up the opportunity to scum hunt in the ways he mentions.  It's value is that the chances are good the IC will be protected, but scum never know how well, and could potentially still be uncertain going into N4, depending on how the flips go.  If we want a plan that will give us information, we have to be aware that scum will get information too.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Another problem with the color plan - if we lynch a yoshi today that should be in tonight's group, how do we allocate? do we just move down the list to the next yoshi? we're going to run out of yoshis at some point, or end up with scum collision - hell, if we use a list, scum might have the opportunity (depending on what their fake claim yoshis are) to explicitly arrange to be all 3 of the 1-shots on a given night through NKs.

tl;dr: the color plan has some potentially significant flaws that make it inferior to the random plan, even though the random plan irks me with its randomness.

There's a fix to that concern.  XP keeps the list and only assigns each night's protectors, along with the next-in-line in case we mislynch one of the dudes.

Isn't this actually just the same thing?
Scum (and everyone) will know who is assigned N1, N2, and N3 because if it's public knowledge which colors are assigned the first 2 nights, it's just simple elimination to know who's left for the last one. Though I guess that could change if we end up lynching scum and/or one of the Yoshi's, but doesn't that just move everything up by one and leave N3 with less protection?

[Witherweaver]

Not sure what your point is.

Today, XP says:

Color A
Color B
Color C

You're up!

On deck is Color D.

If we lynched one of Color A, B, C, then D jumps in.  Tomorrow XP says:

Color D
Color E
Color F

ondeck: Color G

or increment by 1 if D had to step in.

Could also do the on-deck announcement during twighlight only when one of the colors is lynched, but that requires XP being around and having time before threadlock, which is iffy.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ah. I misunderstood you when you said next-in-line. I thought you meant the entire next night's assigned colors, but you only meant one person from the next night. That makes a difference.

[faust]

If I was a 1-shot Doc, I would not feel obligated to follow any plan that I feel is detrimental to town.

I mean, we can all agree that the randomization plan is better than no plan, right? (Or, at the very least, not worse than no plan) So there's no reason not to do it over doing nothing. The same doesn't hold true for the color plan. Also, randomization plan doesn't fall apart when a single member doesn't participate like it would be the case with the color plan.

What I'm trying to say is, let's do randomization, since we're not going to agree on the color plan anyway.

[chairs]

Not sure what your point is.

Today, XP says:

Color A
Color B
Color C

You're up!

On deck is Color D.

If we lynched one of Color A, B, C, then D jumps in.  Tomorrow XP says:

Color D
Color E
Color F

ondeck: Color G

or increment by 1 if D had to step in.

Could also do the on-deck announcement during twighlight only when one of the colors is lynched, but that requires XP being around and having time before threadlock, which is iffy.

I'm okay with this.

I still see the value in the dice, in that we're really in a situation where it's going to be rough if we mislynch some of the yoshis that could be protecting on later days (it's better to mislynch a named VT than to mislynch a doctor shot), but there's no good way around that.

[chairs]

I think we should try to figure out what to do with the watcher and roleblocker, as those seem like more key pieces to playing the opportunity to catch the scum.  Does the watcher always watch the IC? What value do we gain from that? When does the watcher claim? There's a lot of uncertainty there that I think we should try to discuss on D1.

[Witherweaver]

The annoying thing about these setups is that everyone comes up with plans and refuses to follow any other plan, so it devolves into fighting and people claiming they won't follow the plan.  It happens every single game.

Plans require people to follow them.  Both the proposed ones have pros and cons. I think the Color one is slightly better because of the accountability issue.  But whatever, I'll follow whatever the consensus is.

And we should come to a consensus.  If Faust refuses to follow Ash's plan and Ash refuses to follow Faust's plan, then we should just forget about the entire thing, or lynch one of them.

We should probably vote on plans, tally, and make a decision.

Plan: Color

[A Drowned Kernel]

This is starting to frustrate me a little, but I think I have to prefer

Plan: Color

[Witherweaver]

I think we should try to figure out what to do with the watcher and roleblocker, as those seem like more key pieces to playing the opportunity to catch the scum.  Does the watcher always watch the IC? What value do we gain from that? When does the watcher claim? There's a lot of uncertainty there that I think we should try to discuss on D1.

In the Color Plan, Watcher Watches IC always.  He's almost free from nightkills as scum is almost obligated to target XP every night and has motivation to not shoot anyway.  Claim should happen at Watcher's discretion (i.e., as late as possible and when he has important information.  Watcher should require color-claiming from used shots before he claims his results.

[Awaclus]

Plan: Color

Well, in the end, it's up to XP since if he posts the list of colors, then we can't go for any other plan anymore, and we can't go for the color plan if there is no list of colors.

[XerxesPraelor]

I'll do what the majority thinks I should do.

[Awaclus]

Also, I like the Roleblocker claiming and the Watcher watching him. Reducing the lynch pool early is very important especially if we go for the color plan.

[silverspawn]

I refuse to go along with the color plan.

[sudgy]

Well, theory talk isn't over yet, I'll check in later...