Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All

Author Topic: Prince  (Read 33376 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1325
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1385
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2014, 08:06:09 am »
0

I would say Princing a junker is an edge case even within the universe of pulling the single junker out of the Black Market.
Edge case of the edge case: Prince of Cultists.

ETA: Which is only good if you don't pull the junker out of the Black Market.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 08:07:47 am by Jack Rudd »
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2014, 08:59:36 am »
0

You make good points. I agree that terminal draw is an ideal target for Prince, since its biggest weakness of possibly drawing dead Action cards is negated. But it's not SO much better that I'll choose not to Prince a terminal Silver given that opportunity.

I would also play Prince even if payload is the only target, if that's what you meant. I think you almost always want to play it on the first turn you have a chance to, and that rule trumps the "Princing priority".
Logged

SwitchedFromStarcraft

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1088
  • Respect: +856
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2014, 09:34:11 am »
0

I've never seen Prince before today, and have read it carefully twice.  I still have the following questions:

On first play, you play the Prince and then the target card. In the cleanup phase, you leave the target card out in the play area so it is used next turn, and each subsequent turn (until perhaps you don't want it to play anymore).  Does the Prince stay out in the play area as well, or does it go into the discards?  I can see it needing to stay out to "mark" the target card, similar to a KC or TR staying out with an associated duration card.

If it goes into the discards, it could be used again on another target card, correct?
Logged
Quote from: Donald X.
Posting begets posting.

Quote from: Asper
Donald X made me a design snob.

There is a sucker born every minute.

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1325
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1385
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2014, 09:44:58 am »
+3

The Prince stays out in set-aside land. Forever.
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

SwitchedFromStarcraft

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1088
  • Respect: +856
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2014, 10:02:42 am »
0

So Prince is, in a way, a one-shot.  It would stay set aside even if you moved the target card into the discard so that the target card eventually returns to a hand at some point. Have I understood this correctly?

Given its cost, and the article's discussion about taking a while to get running, are there boards/game conditions where one would consider obtaining more than one Prince?  I suspect that would be extremely edge-case-y, but I'm thinking of highway and bridge (or haggler with price reducers in play).  But I'm so rusty I can't remember the limitations on what prices get reduced with highway and bridge (action cards only, all cards, etc.).

Regardless, you would still be deciding to take a second Prince over a Province if both the price of both are reduced the same amount.  I can see how that would be unlikely when players are already greening and you've paid the opportunity cost of setting up your first Prince.

Edit:  I'm having trouble finding the list(s) of all the cards.  Can someone provide me the link, and I will bookmark it.

« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 10:04:50 am by SwitchedFromStarcraft »
Logged
Quote from: Donald X.
Posting begets posting.

Quote from: Asper
Donald X made me a design snob.

There is a sucker born every minute.

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3413
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #30 on: December 25, 2014, 10:24:35 am »
+1

Prince is like Possession: high cost, high variance.
If you do connect Prince and a drawer early that's basically game.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3304
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4458
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2014, 12:02:39 pm »
+1

On first play, you play the Prince and then the target card.

You play the Prince and set aside the target card—the target card doesn't actually get played until the following turn.

Quote
In the cleanup phase, you leave the target card out in the play area so it is used next turn, and each subsequent turn

Not quite—unlike Duration cards, you leave the target card set aside between turns, not in the play area; it enters the play area at the beginning of your turn and is cleaned up at the end of the end of the turn, but when you clean it up you set it aside.

Quote
(until perhaps you don't want it to play anymore).

No, you don't have a choice.

Quote
Does the Prince stay out in the play area as well, or does it go into the discards?

Neither; the Prince is set aside when you play it and, as noted by Jack Rudd, stays there for the rest of the game.
Logged

faust

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3402
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +5213
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2014, 07:44:43 pm »
0

So Prince is, in a way, a one-shot.  It would stay set aside even if you moved the target card into the discard so that the target card eventually returns to a hand at some point. Have I understood this correctly?

Given its cost, and the article's discussion about taking a while to get running, are there boards/game conditions where one would consider obtaining more than one Prince?  I suspect that would be extremely edge-case-y, but I'm thinking of highway and bridge (or haggler with price reducers in play).  But I'm so rusty I can't remember the limitations on what prices get reduced with highway and bridge (action cards only, all cards, etc.).

Regardless, you would still be deciding to take a second Prince over a Province if both the price of both are reduced the same amount.  I can see how that would be unlikely when players are already greening and you've paid the opportunity cost of setting up your first Prince.

Edit:  I'm having trouble finding the list(s) of all the cards.  Can someone provide me the link, and I will bookmark it.

I think Colony games may have use for more than one Prince, and other Alt-VP games where you don't want Provinces might as well (Vineyards!). More edge-casey, Quarry might lead to games with multiple Princes, as it lowers the opportunity cost.
Logged
You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3846
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2437
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2014, 09:57:32 pm »
+2

Another edge case for getting multiple Princes is Stonemason, which lets you get 2 Princes for 10 coins but can't get you 2 Provinces.
Logged

TheOthin

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 459
  • Shuffle iT Username: TheOthin
  • Respect: +447
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2014, 10:24:45 pm »
+1

Anything that gains Action cards specifically or preferentially could help. Horn of Plenty and Treasury seem like the more notable cases, but getting really into edge cases there's stuff like Procession, University, Talisman, and Haggler when combined with the right other cards. (Although in Haggler's case it's dependent on already having Colonies or Quarry in the first place which already change Prince's standing.)
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 10:27:54 pm by TheOthin »
Logged

GeoLib

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 965
  • Respect: +1265
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #35 on: December 25, 2014, 10:51:56 pm »
+2

Edit:  I'm having trouble finding the list(s) of all the cards.  Can someone provide me the link, and I will bookmark it.

Here: http://dominionstrategy.com/all-cards/
Logged
"All advice is awful"
 —Count Grishnakh

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9631
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2014, 12:40:25 am »
0

Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9721
  • Respect: +10792
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2014, 01:06:20 am »
+1

Quote
A throned discard is sort of the inverse effect

Should be "Princed", not "Throned".

Quote
n a Colony game, you usually don't want to go for Provinces expect in the endgame

"Except."
« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 01:08:59 am by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

faust

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3402
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +5213
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2014, 08:24:01 am »
0

Thanks for all the input; I've updated the article now. There are some more explanations about the card order, and I've addressed some other interactions with Prince. I consider the article mostly finished now; maybe I'll add some example games when I encounter nice boards.
Logged
You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9631
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2014, 12:06:18 pm »
+2

Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2014, 11:18:07 am »
+3

First off, thanks for writing a card article! We haven't got a ton of these recently. I have a couple things I'd like to contribute to the conversation. Take these with a grain of salt, since I don't own Prince on MF and thus don't have much experience with it in high level 2-player games.

I think the biggest thing about Prince, which isn't emphasized enough here, is the reliability aspect. Silverspawn mentions it in the context of card reliability, but it also has a lot to do with the reliability of your deck as a whole. If you have something like an Alchemist stack that is going to draw your deck all the time, you really have no need for Prince, and it's not worth the huge cost. But if your deck is something like Villages and Smithys with a bunch of  treasure, there's a pretty good chance of not getting a Village in your starting hand, which can just kill a turn. In this case, Price might be useful.

In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme. That Scheme must be used on the L2 City and a card that your want to play immediately after it. So if you have a deck in which you wouldn't buy a Scheme, you should really think twice about buying a Prince. Prince is still a little better if you're not shuffling that frequently, since it persists forever rather than once per shuffle, but it's still just doing the same kind of thing.

Of course the other part is the L2 City. If there's no villages, and you could really use one, it might be worth buying Prince even in a reliable deck. Say you can reliably draw up most of your deck with Stables or something, but there are 2 terminals you potentially want to play -- usually a +buy and something else (an attack, some big source of money like Coppersmith, or maybe another +buy). Having just one extra action can be a big deal here. I'm sure you've experienced this with Necropolis allowing for it, but Prince can do the same thing in non-Shelters games, albeit at a very high cost. But potentially this is occasionally worth it, for example in the Stables/Coppersmith/terminal +buy example.
Logged

Polk5440

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1708
  • Respect: +1788
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2014, 01:50:40 pm »
+1

In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2014, 02:25:47 pm »
0

In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.

What I mean is that if you Prince a <card>, it's like at the start of every turn playing Level 2 City, 2x Scheme, <card>, and then at the end choosing to return the L2 City and the <card>.
Logged

amalloy

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 453
  • Respect: +620
    • View Profile
    • Twitch stream
Re: Prince
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2014, 02:36:33 pm »
+10

In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.

Maybe Mic Qsenoch can explain what this means: you should have heard how he reacted on stream when I explained to him that Prince is really just a Lab plus a Village plus a Scheme you don't really control, which you get to play at the beginning of every turn. But I've realized that this is an oversimplification: it's actually a Treasure Map that you have to collide with a different non-Treasure-Map card first, which Pillages yourself for one turn but then transforms into the Lab+Village+Scheme. I never really understood how to play Prince properly until I recognized that it's five unrelated cards all at once.
Logged

blueblimp

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2849
  • Respect: +1560
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2014, 03:10:30 pm »
+1

In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.
It's just saying that the effect of Prince is the same as a level 2 City plus reliability. If you play a level 2 City, you net +1 actions and +1 cards (because you get +2 actions +2 cards, but spent an action and a card to play it). Prince effectively does this, then immediately spends that action and card to play the card you have set aside.

That's why Princing a Village is about as good as Princing a Smithy, contrary to the claim of the article. Either way, you still get the level 2 City benefit, and the reliability of having a Village each turn is nearly as valuable as having a Smithy each turn, in an engine deck.
Logged

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5362
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +3311
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2014, 03:48:18 pm »
+1

In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.
It's just saying that the effect of Prince is the same as a level 2 City plus reliability. If you play a level 2 City, you net +1 actions and +1 cards (because you get +2 actions +2 cards, but spent an action and a card to play it). Prince effectively does this, then immediately spends that action and card to play the card you have set aside.

That's why Princing a Village is about as good as Princing a Smithy, contrary to the claim of the article. Either way, you still get the level 2 City benefit, and the reliability of having a Village each turn is nearly as valuable as having a Smithy each turn, in an engine deck.


I don't think that's true; I think stalling a 6 card hand with 3 actions is considerably more likely than an 8 card hand with 1 action.

but more importantly, draw is much better for non-engines

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2227
  • Respect: +7140
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2014, 04:07:04 pm »
0

In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.

Maybe Mic Qsenoch can explain what this means: you should have heard how he reacted on stream when I explained to him that Prince is really just a Lab plus a Village plus a Scheme you don't really control, which you get to play at the beginning of every turn.

Is the stream still up somewhere? Mic always comes across as so ridiculously composed that I'd love to hear him lose his cool!
Logged

amalloy

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 453
  • Respect: +620
    • View Profile
    • Twitch stream
Re: Prince
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2014, 04:17:19 pm »
0

In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.

Maybe Mic Qsenoch can explain what this means: you should have heard how he reacted on stream when I explained to him that Prince is really just a Lab plus a Village plus a Scheme you don't really control, which you get to play at the beginning of every turn.

Is the stream still up somewhere? Mic always comes across as so ridiculously composed that I'd love to hear him lose his cool!

It was on Adam's stream, but I don't remember what game. Maybe when Adam was commentating games between Mic and Stef after the championship match with DG ended?
Logged

TrojH

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 169
  • Respect: +191
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2014, 04:36:41 pm »
+2

In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.

Maybe Mic Qsenoch can explain what this means: you should have heard how he reacted on stream when I explained to him that Prince is really just a Lab plus a Village plus a Scheme you don't really control, which you get to play at the beginning of every turn. But I've realized that this is an oversimplification: it's actually a Treasure Map that you have to collide with a different non-Treasure-Map card first, which Pillages yourself for one turn but then transforms into the Lab+Village+Scheme. I never really understood how to play Prince properly until I recognized that it's five unrelated cards all at once.

???  ???  ???

That does it. I'm never buying Prince again. Too confusing.
Logged

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2479
    • View Profile
Re: Prince
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2014, 06:08:29 pm »
+2

And you can only scheme a card costing up to 4 and it has to be the same card every time (the non-treasure map card). Unless the non-treasure map card is scheme itself.

Also, it costs 8.

Amalloy is making a joke, so let me explain it to you. mic got angry at people for comparing cards as a form of other cards, saying that is a useless approach. Amalloy then further complicated it, using 5 unrelated cards in order to fully capture the effect of prince, doing exactly what mic hates. This was quite funny. Then I went one step further because he still missed an important part of what prince does. That was funny too. So, yeah, upvote plz.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All
 

Page created in 0.058 seconds with 22 queries.