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Author Topic: Table: How to defend against attacks  (Read 15358 times)

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TheOthin

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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2014, 01:49:42 pm »
0

Having 10 Curses and a Colony means being neutral on points and high-value PSs, but it also means having 11 dead cards clogging up your deck... sure it's possible to win from there but it doesn't sound like a good situation.
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DG

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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2014, 02:03:27 pm »
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Philosopher's stone works well in multiplayer junking games where it is a properly balanced card. It is far easier in two player games to clean up a deck and/or win by giving your opponent more junk.
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Asper

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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2014, 07:36:11 pm »
+1

It's not like i really can argue in favour of PS. I can not guarantee i just messed up or that he got lucky. I can just say what happened. The only thing i would assume is that a strategy resolving around few high-value treasures might be differently/less affected by junk than an engine where you have to bring several pieces together.

Anyhow, i am afraid this discussion is derailing the thread. I believe that PS is a card that is less affected by certain types of attack, and i think i gave some good reasons for it. I never implied that PS was always, or even often, a reasonable strategy to go for. Moat isn't either, but nobody would doubt it defends against attacks. This is what this thread is about, and this is why i missed PS on the list.
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jomini

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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2014, 04:04:19 pm »
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An additional mitigation strategy to trashers is the use of on-trash cards. For instance, Fortress can make cans like Knights and Swindler actively bad as they increase the odds that you hit your engine and decrease the odds that they do real damage. Likewise, Swindler becomes a lot less useful when Squires can become Rabble, Goons, or Pools. Feodum can be insanely good against Knights/Rogue/Sab with a steady supply of silvers and increased points from any other Feoda. Cultist, Hunting grounds, and Catacombs are less useful, but trashing attacks definitely make the relatively stronger compared to competitive card (e.g. Witch vs Cultist tilts further towards Cultist when the opponent opens Swindler, Hunting grounds vs Rabble goes a bit towards the former when you have Knights trashing your engine). Secret chamber/Fortress can turn Rogue in +2 coin for you and +1 live card for me (and ensuring I have a village) - a trade usually worth it - and they spent a $5 or opening buy on giving it to me; other options that let you control your top deck between turns can also get really strong (e.g. Gship can be undone).



A second strategy that mitigates virtually all deck junkers and muckers (and even some trashers and discarders) are top deck control setups. Take the simplest - Scavenger/Stash. You can go for a number of different attacks - Fortune teller, Witch, Swindler, etc. and you will be mostly immune - nabbing a province pretty much every turn after you get Scav x2, Stash x3. Kc/Scheme/X decks can overcome an awful lot - drawing a net +1 card, having extra +action, and being able to keep a draw card on top can let you shrug off discards and even a lot of curses. Inn and Herald can both let you set up some serious megaturns even when you have a LOT of junk in deck; just gain an Inn with a full discard and you might be able to ignore 10 curses  and "draw deck" for a huge megaturn. Herbalist can also make a decent play here allowing you to abuse treasures (like Hoard, Pstone, Venture, and Plat) by ensuring that they spend a lot of time on deck top where you can use them.

Relatedly, cards like Hermit/Madman and Nv can allow you to engineer a complete deck draw regardless of how much crap you have in whatever horrid order. For instance, Iw/Nv/X can be surprisingly strong in 3er where the other guys are tossing curses like candy - just gain a card, mat it, and maybe gain one more card and you are good to go. In 4er I had a hilarious match where I bought out the Nv pile, emptied my deck except for an Armory and then just stashed Silvers and support cards (like Woodcutters and Pearl divers) onto the mat while my opponents tossed around ruins and Rogued each other. While far less useful or common, other options for megaturn draw with a junked, poorly ordered deck include Countinghouse (and things like Cellar or Storeroom) and the odd Apprentice/Xroads setup.
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Bench of Bishops

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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2014, 04:53:07 pm »
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@jomini and @asper, I appreciate your points, especially since you're pointing out cards and possibilities from expansions I haven't yet played with.

I'm trying to balance the table between not being too abstract and not being too specific. I've tried to avoid being too abstract by breaking out each specific attack and defense type. I've tried to avoid being too specific by not focusing on specific cards or card combos unless they really have a unique dynamic. (Except for the reaction cards, where the whole point was to see how each one individually helped against attacks.)

So for Pstone and some of your points, jomini, can you help me figure out which categories those belong in, or if they maybe belong in categories of their own? For example, if Pstone belongs in the table, maybe it needs its own category: Focus on fewer high-value cards (Pstone, Plat, etc.) rather than on lots of cheaper cards (which might make sense when responding to repeated Sab/Rogue/Knight attacks).

I like the mention of cards with on-trash benefits; I'll add that as its own category. I do already have top deck control as a category, and I avoided listing ALL the cards that fall into that category (of which there are quite a few).

For huge deck-draw like Madman, or reliability from KC/KC/Scheme/Scheme/X, is that really something that gets stronger against attacks, or is it just good in general? If the latter, I'm not sure it quite qualifies as a defense. Or, it falls into the category of "the best defense is a good offense", i.e., just kick ass and you'll be fine against some attacks because you're kicking so much ass anyway. I'm not listing that currently as a strategy, but maybe I should, just to remind people that sometimes it doesn't pay to go after a specific defensive card or strategy; just shrug off the attacks and focus on making yourself an awesome deck.

But I will add a new category for "Sequester your cards" to keep them protected, and/or to take them out of your way, and I'll include cards like Island, NV, etc. in that category. Of course, those cards function very differently but for the sake of not having too much detail I think I'll include it in one category. What do you think?
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jomini

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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2015, 03:39:33 pm »
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Say we have 3 basic decks on a board: draw deck (e.g. Madman), BM-Attack, and X. It is entirely possibly to set up a scenario where BM-attack > X > Madman > BM-attack. Without the attack, you'd skip on a Madman deck (e.g. Coppersmith/Madman/+buy/coppers) against a decent engine setup (say Library/Spice merchant/Festival), but the engine can be utterly destroyed by junkers (e.g. Mountebank) and top deck muckers (E.g. mass Rabble). It takes relatively little junking/top deck mucking to lower the odds of connecting +buy and +cards so that engines falter (e.g. an Engine with 1/4 cards as +action and 1/4 cards as +3 cards needs just 5 or so curses to have terrible of odds of fully firing); one additional Madman, on the other hand, can draw another 40 cards (the bigger issue is waiting a turn or two longer until you hit a hand with 2 Madmen in it). Similarly, Counting house is a terrible play against a lot of strats, but if your deck is getting massively bloated (say with lots of copper/estates from Amb in 4er), it becomes a LOT more powerful if you can do something like Village -> Chouse -> Cellar to draw out all your megaturn cards (say Squires and Bridges).

Megadraw is often very, very slow to setup, but if you've been nuking each other's decks, you gain the time needed and you often don't care about deck top ordering. On the flip side, megadraw can be really, really weak against trashing attacks. For instance, if you are going for Madmen, Swindler is truly evil. Both Hermit -> Silver (or worse) and Madman -> Curse (copper) depletes the Madmen you can gain (barring trash diving), you can set up your entire deck & lose ... as you have no way to get enough Madmen once you've been trashed hard enough. Other trashing, like Knights or Sab, also can hurt a lot. When you need every action card, any time an action card goes into the trash you lose at least half a turn. Likewise, discarding attacks can slow you down.

Or take something like using Inn to setup a big Bridge turn. It takes a lot of turns to get all the Bridges you will need and longer yet to get them all in the discard at the right time. However, if you have been Mountebanking, you likely will have a lot of $4 & $5 hands before a shuffle and the other guy cannot quickly nab 5 provinces.


So, yes I'd say that megadraw options like Madmen, Nv, and maybe some other odd ducks (like Chouse, Apprentice, Xroads) are strategies that are defensive. They get relatively stronger when decks are filled with crud.

Kc/Scheme/X likewise suffers from the curse of a slow burn. Getting the big setup - two Kc, two Sch, and some other power card, then lining them all up takes time. While I'm futzing around buying all of that you might just do something like quickly grab 4 Provinces and then start piling the Duchies. Now X has to be something really good to not be the attack itself, but they you don't care at all about trashing (your 5 power cards are always in hand), junking (your 5 power cards ensure you have no really bad hands), and only a bit about top deck mucking. On the other hand, discard attacks (particularly Minion) are brutal. Something truly horrid (like Kc/Kc/Sch/Sch/B-crat) can become insanely strong if you have the time to build out to it (e.g. 4er with Amb). Certainly the strengths of this type of deck differ greatly from cards that just let you discard junk of deck top (like Cartographer). Something simple like Procession/Armory/Useful $5 does not care if you are getting cursed - it will keep giving you a new Prssn/ replaced Arm on top and a nice shiny new $5. Discarding actually hurts more (because the odds of you getting a Silver or something useful out of 2-3 other cards is much higher than out of 1) than junking here.

Because these setups can shrug off the attacks and competing strategies often can't that makes them more powerful than they be without the attacks on the board. Certainly the top deck control category is overly broad.
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