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Author Topic: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles  (Read 14013 times)

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Seprix

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Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« on: December 16, 2014, 02:32:05 pm »
+2

How many Estates can you possibly get in one turn playing only one action? Curses? What if you had two actions? What would change then? Please note that the Estate and Curse pile are infinite. If you can gain 100 estates, then it's possible.

LIMITS:
Your hand must only have 5 cards in it at the start of the turn. No turn shenanigans like Possession or Caravan or Outpost.
You can set your draw deck to be anything you want, and the discard pile is empty.
Playing KC and TR counts as one action.
Playing Golem counts as one action, and any actions played via Golem count as well, making Golem (as far as I can tell) moot.
Standard rules apply here, meaning that if you use a Terminal first, you're out of actions.
You do not start with any coin tokens, pirate coins, etc. Think of this turn like it is your first turn.
Embargo tokens are not applicable except if you have an Embargo card in hand and apply it before buying.

For Estates (one action), I have conceived of this scenario:

HAND: Hunting Grounds, Hunting Grounds, Hunting Grounds, Hunting Grounds, Chapel

Total: 12 Estates

For Estates (two actions), I have conceived of this scenario:

HAND: Hunting Grounds, Hunting Grounds, Hunting Grounds, Hunting Grounds, Chapel

Total: 12 Estates

I do not think that 12 Estates can be improved upon with this scenario, so the first question is this: Will the answer change with 3 actions played? Did I miss something with 2 actions that gives more than 12 possible Estates? Remember that Talisman and Stonemason do not work as they gain non-victory cards (or at least for Stonemason, action cards).

As for curses...

Curses (one action):

HAND: Talisman, Talisman, Talisman, Talisman, Sir Martin/Squire

Play Sir Martin/Squire with 2 buys. With each buy, you gain an extra 4 curses with every curse buy.

Total: 10 Curses

Can you top that? Note that since Talisman only forbids Victory cards, and Curses are NOT Victory cards, it stands to reason that Talisman can work in this instance.

Curses (with 2 actions):

HAND: King's Court, Sir Martin/Squire, Talisman, Talisman, Talisman

You King's Court a Sir Martin/Squire with 2 buys, and the Talisman count is at 3 curses per 6 buys.

Total: 24 curses

The second question here follows the first question in scope. Is there a better possible Curse gaining function for 1 or 2 actions? If not, there remains some interesting follow-ups with 3 actions. Obviously King's Court comes into play, and you would likely King's Court a Squire (which is the better buy at this point over Sir Martin for it's Action giving ability) to gain +4 buys and +2 Actions, leading into the next card in your hand (with Talisman, Talisman, and Hunting Grounds), to play Hunting Grounds for 4 Talismans, leading to a 6 Talisman count per 4 buys, meaning a count total of 28 Curses. So my second question here is thus: Is it possible to gain more curses than a standard KC/Squire/Talisman/Hunting Grounds deck with every subsequent action increase?

In conclusion, the questions posed here are:

1. Can you gain more Estates in a 1-2 action setting than I proposed?
2. Can you change the total of Estates gained with 3 actions? With 4?
3. Can you gain more curses in a 1-2 action setting than I proposed?
4. Can you gain more Curses than a simple KC/Squire/Talisman/Hunting Grounds deck (using at least one different action) as you increase the number of Actions allowed? Remember that Using Golem uses 1 action by itself, and any actions it uses count as actions as well.


I bet this could all be solved with Math and Logic. :p
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 03:21:45 pm by Seprix »
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liopoil

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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2014, 02:37:53 pm »
+6

I can get 40 estates with two actions:

Action 1: Scrying pool, drawing 10 catacombs and 10 HG and forge
Action 2: Forge everything.

Curses: Note that your scenario allows for playing treasures and buying, and also gets 15. I can get 105:

Hand: 4 talisman, squire. Curses are embargoed 30 times. Each time I buy a curse I get 34 more.
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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2014, 02:48:02 pm »
+5

I can gain 40 estates with 0 actions. Use my 4857638476259346798567 coin tokens, overpay for Doctor, trash 10 Catacombs and 10 Hunting Grounds.
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Seprix

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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2014, 03:16:03 pm »
0

I can gain 40 estates with 0 actions. Use my 4857638476259346798567 coin tokens, overpay for Doctor, trash 10 Catacombs and 10 Hunting Grounds.

Okay, okay. I'll make a clause for zero coin tokens. I forgot that bit.
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liopoil

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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2014, 03:19:40 pm »
+2

4857638476259346798567
You mean 23? I mean, that's just wasteful.
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Seprix

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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2014, 03:21:05 pm »
+1

I can get 40 estates with two actions:

Action 1: Scrying pool, drawing 10 catacombs and 10 HG and forge
Action 2: Forge everything.

Curses: Note that your scenario allows for playing treasures and buying, and also gets 15. I can get 105:

Hand: 4 talisman, squire. Curses are embargoed 30 times. Each time I buy a curse I get 34 more.

Smart, smart. Embargo tokens. I need to remove those as well from the equation. I knew I was missing some stuff.

Scrying pool play, very smart. I've discovered actual interplay with Counterfeit and Talisman, with Counterfeit giving an extra buy as well to boot.

Hunting Grounds is probably the main way to gain Estates.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 03:22:42 pm by Seprix »
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Seprix

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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2014, 03:25:19 pm »
+1

Okay, so with question one and two, everything is resolved. Estates can be gained quite quickly with the right tools, as you al have surmised.

The question now is, is there a better way to gain curses with the preset rules than what I have already listed?
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liopoil

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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2014, 03:33:00 pm »
0

I can get 40 estates with two actions:

Action 1: Scrying pool, drawing 10 catacombs and 10 HG and forge
Action 2: Forge everything.

Curses: Note that your scenario allows for playing treasures and buying, and also gets 15. I can get 105:

Hand: 4 talisman, squire. Curses are embargoed 30 times. Each time I buy a curse I get 34 more.

Smart, smart. Embargo tokens. I need to remove those as well from the equation. I knew I was missing some stuff.

Scrying pool play, very smart. I've discovered actual interplay with Counterfeit and Talisman, with Counterfeit giving an extra buy as well to boot.

I don't recall what HG is though.
HG = Hunting Grounds

When you play counterfeit on talisman the talisman is trashed, so it is not in play, so you don't gain extra curses.

Even if you outlaw coin tokens, a hand of 5 plats can overpay for doctor without playing any actions similarly.

How many silvers can you get? No masterpiece or embargo allowed. I can get 9 without playing any actions. With one action I can get 27 (you can probably guess that I use squire to do the first part 3 times, but it is actually a bit trickier to do...).
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 03:34:53 pm by liopoil »
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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2014, 03:44:46 pm »
+1

No actions?

Hand is Trader, Watchtower,  Venture, Quarry, Talisman
Venture into Ventures and Contraband.
Buy 2 Border Villages, gaining 4, gaining 4 Feoda, trashing them, gaining 12 Silvers.
Trade the 4 BVs for 4 Silvers.

16 Silvers total.

Or just overpay for Doctor to trash 8 Feoda for 24 Silvers. Trade the Doctor for 25 Silvers total. Actually you can go Trader Counterfeit Counterfeit Venture and dig up a lot of Treasure to get extra buys and gains for Trader, getting like 40 Silvers total.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 03:51:02 pm by Davio »
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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2014, 03:51:02 pm »
0

No actions?

Hand is Trader, Watchtower,  Venture, Quarry, Talisman
Venture into Ventures and Contraband.
Buy 2 Border Villages, gaining 4, gaining 4 Feoda, trashing them, gaining 12 Silvers.
Trade the 4 BVs for 4 Silvers.

16 Silvers total.

Or just overpay for Doctor to trash 8 Feoda for 24 Silvers.

I get it, Silvers are pretty much like Curses.

EDIT: Quoted the wrong post, but oh well, this one is still on the same subject.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 03:58:00 pm by Awaclus »
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liopoil

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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2014, 03:54:50 pm »
0

Good call with the +buy treasures and feodum...

Hand: Trader, watchtower, venture, contraband, Plat

Venture into 9 ventures and a counterfeit on a plat, play contraband. Coins: 10 + 1 + 3 + 10 = 24, three buys.

Stonemason overpay by six 3 times for 24 coins. Gain 6 BV, 6 Feoda, Stonemason. Watchtower the feoda, trader the BV and stonemason, watchtower 25 silvers on the deck, buy province next 5 turns :D.

Or you can do the doctor thing... heh
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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2014, 04:13:43 pm »
+1

Good call with the +buy treasures and feodum...

Hand: Trader, watchtower, venture, contraband, Plat

Venture into 9 ventures and a counterfeit on a plat, play contraband. Coins: 10 + 1 + 3 + 10 = 24, three buys.

Stonemason overpay by six 3 times for 24 coins. Gain 6 BV, 6 Feoda, Stonemason. Watchtower the feoda, trader the BV and stonemason, watchtower 25 silvers on the deck, buy province next 5 turns :D.

A clever* opponent would bar you from buying the stonemason. 

*By clever, of course I mean obnoxious and forum-reading

Simon (DK)

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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2014, 05:08:58 pm »
+5

EDIT: I've changed this a lot to reach 140 Silvers. Look Further down in the thread to see that post.
EDIT 2: On the 2nd page of this thread I've found (thanks to luser) a solution giving 422 Silvers.

110 Silvers with 0 actions:

Kingdom:
Black Market (contained Trader and Bank and contains Young Witch)
Counterfeit
Venture
Tunnel
Doctor
Cultist
Market Square
Feodum (empty)
Hunting Grounds (empty)
Catacombs
Death Cart

Hand: Trader, 2 Counterfeits, 1 Venture and 1 Bank.
Play Counterfeit, Counterfeit, Venture discarding 9 Tunnels and hitting 8 Ventures and a Counterfeit (playing nothing), reveal Trader for all the Tunnel golds to get 9 Silvers.
Play Venture again, reshuffle, hit the 9 Tunnels again to get 9 Silvers and hit a Silver.
Play Bank twice, getting 14$ each time.
Total: 44$ and 5 buys.
Buy Doctor, overpay by 32$ and trash 3 Cultists (drawing 9 Market Squares discarding them for golds on the later trashes), 10 Feodums, 10 Hunting Grounds, 9 Catacombs (gaining Death Carts). For everything you get that isn't a Silver except for Death Cart, apply Trader and get Silver instead. Total: 87 Silvers.
Buy Death Cart gaining 2 Ruins applying Trader to get 2 Silvers.
Buy 3 Curses revealing Trader to get 3 Silvers instead.
Total: 110 Silvers.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 04:34:33 pm by Simon (DK) »
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2014, 05:21:02 pm »
+2

90 Curses with 1 action:
Hand: Apprentice, Colony and 3 Counterfeits.
Play Apprentice, trash Colony, draw 2 Counterfeits and 9 Talismans.
Play the Counterfeits on eachother to get 9 buys.
Play 9 Talismans.
Buy 9 Curses gaining 9 extra for each to get 90 Curses.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 06:08:53 pm by Simon (DK) »
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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2014, 05:56:48 pm »
0

Jesus, fucking Counterfeit-Counterfeit is the new Procession-Procession.

I was going to ask where the 10th Talisman came from but you only mention 9 extra Curses per Curse so that sounds like a typo rather than an oversight?
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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2014, 06:08:15 pm »
+2

46 Estates with 0 actions:
Hand: 4 Counterfeits and 1 Venture.
Play the 4 Counterfeits and the Venture hitting 8 Ventures and a Bank (gaining 14$).
Play Venture again and hit a Bank (gaining 15$).
Total: 45$ and 7 buys.
Buy Doctor overpaying with 20$ and trash 10 Hunting Grounds and 10 Catacombs to get 40 Estates.
Buy 6 Estates.
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2014, 06:09:23 pm »
0

Jesus, fucking Counterfeit-Counterfeit is the new Procession-Procession.

I was going to ask where the 10th Talisman came from but you only mention 9 extra Curses per Curse so that sounds like a typo rather than an oversight?

Yes that was a typo, I've corrected it to play 9 Talismans.

I've also edited the Silver solution a few times. First I had it at 111, but there was 3 empty piles.
Then I realised that adding Death Cart to the supply instead of Squire gave 1 extra Silver.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 06:11:20 pm by Simon (DK) »
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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2014, 08:47:48 pm »
+2

With two actions you could also get 339 curses by extending scrying pool trick. and more silver with trader in hand
Step 1: play scrying pool drawing 19 rats, 9 cultists, 9 catacombs, gaining  9 curses
Step 2: use forge to draw 10 talismans, 10 counterfeits and 9 contrabands.
by counterfeiting contrabands you get 30 buys, which due to talismans yields 330 curses.
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liopoil

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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2014, 08:50:25 pm »
+3

With two actions you could also get 339 curses by extending scrying pool trick. and more silver with trader in hand
Step 1: play scrying pool drawing 19 rats, 9 cultists, 9 catacombs, gaining  9 curses
Step 2: use forge to draw 10 talismans, 10 counterfeits and 9 contrabands.
by counterfeiting contrabands you get 30 buys, which due to talismans yields 330 curses.
Don't forget to draw Overgrown Estate with scyring pool! :D Okay, you could have just drawn the first talisman, but that isn't half as fun!
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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2014, 09:06:10 pm »
+2

EDIT: On the 2nd page of this thread I've found (thanks to luser) a solution giving 422 Silvers.

140 Silvers with 0 actions:

Kingdom:
Black Market (contained Venture, Philosopher's Stone and all possible non-treasure cards)
Counterfeit
Tunnel
Doctor
Cultist
Market Square
Feodum
Hunting Grounds
Catacombs
Death Cart
Squire

All non-treasure supply piles have 1 card left except Tunnel and Hunting Grounds that are empty.

Hand: Trader, 3 Counterfeits and Venture.
Play the 3 Counterfeits and the Venture hitting 10 Tunnels, discarding them to get 10 Silvers, then hit a Philosopher's Stone (gaining 68$).
Play Venture again reshuffle, hit the 10 Tunnels again to get 10 Silvers, discard all the cards that aren't mentioned before the reshuffle, and then hit a Silver.
Total: 77$ and 6 buys. (note that we're only using 68$, so even if I've miscounted a little for Philosopher's Stone it still works).
Buy Doctor, overpay by 57$ and trash 3 Cultists (drawing 9 Market Squares discarding them for golds on the later trashes), 9 Feodums, 10 Hunting Grounds, 9 Catacombs (gaining, Feodum and 8 Death Carts), 9 Squires (gaining Cultists), 6 Cultists (drawing 9 Silvers (reshuffle) and 9 Market Squares), 1 Feodum (discarding the 9 Market Squares), and 10 Tunnels (discarding them for golds). For everything you get that isn't a Silver except for Death Cart, apply Trader and get Silver instead. Total: 113 Silvers.
Buy 2 Death Carts, applying Trader to the Ruins to get 4 Silvers.
Buy 3 Curses revealing Trader to get 3 Silvers instead.
Total: 140 Silvers.


This is the best solution to a puzzle I've ever made. Finally it's me doing something like this :)
Please check to see if I've made any mistakes or if you can find a better solution.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 04:34:49 pm by Simon (DK) »
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Seprix

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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2014, 09:40:51 pm »
+1

lol, I like how this went from a Curse/Estate to a Silver thing.

How about gaining the most amount of Duchies with 1 action?

Chapel 4 HG in your hand for 4 Duchies. Or....

Have 3 Platinums and 2 Counterfeits in hand, Play the two Counterfeits on 2 Platinums for a total of 27 bucks, Overpay with Doctor to trash 10 HG as you draw them (13 used), and with 14 left, buy 2 Duchies to gain a total of 12 Duchies. I was one coin short of gaining a third coin, so maybe you all could help with that.
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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2014, 10:06:50 pm »
+1

lol, I like how this went from a Curse/Estate to a Silver thing.

How about gaining the most amount of Duchies with 1 action?

Chapel 4 HG in your hand for 4 Duchies. Or....

Have 3 Platinums and 2 Counterfeits in hand, Play the two Counterfeits on 2 Platinums for a total of 27 bucks, Overpay with Doctor to trash 10 HG as you draw them (13 used), and with 14 left, buy 2 Duchies to gain a total of 12 Duchies. I was one coin short of gaining a third coin, so maybe you all could help with that.
Swapping out one Platinum for a Venture should bring up the count.
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Seprix

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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2014, 10:45:25 pm »
+1

Swapping out one Platinum for a Venture should bring up the count.

Brilliant. I always think of these elaborate things but always forget one thing. Not just with Dominion. Dumb brain.
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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2014, 05:39:34 am »
+1

Now I could get 200+ curses, could be improved with doctor overpay.

Starting hand is watchtower, talisman, horn of plenty.

Play talisman then horn of plenty gaining squire, trash it for cultist to draw talisman, horn of plenty, counterfeit. Repeat ten times and buy curses with 10 counterfeits and 10 tailsmans.
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Re: Estate and Curse gaining puzzles
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2014, 05:50:27 am »
+1

My first thought at Duchies with 0 and 1 actions are something like this. The actual number of Duchies depends on how much money we can get from Philosopher's Stone:

Duchies with 0 actions:
Hand: 3 Counterfeits, Contraband and Venture.
Play the 3 Counterfeits, Contraband and Venture, hitting a Philosopher's Stone.
Play the Venture again hitting 9 Ventures and a Contraband.
Overpay for Doctor with 10$ to trash 10 Hunting Grounds.
Buy Stonemasons overpaying with 6 to get 2 Border Villages and 2 Duchies.

Duchies with 1 action:
Hand: Apprentice, Colony, 3 Counterfeits
Play Apprentice, trash Colony, draw 4 Counterfeits, 6 Contrabands and Venture.
Play the 7 Counterfeits, 6 Contrabands and Venture and hit a Philosopher's Stone, 9 Ventures and Contraband.
Buy Doctor, overpaying with 10 to trash 10 Hunting Grounds.
Buy Stonemasons overpaying with 6$ to get 2 Border Villages and 2 Duchies.
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