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[SirD]

Hi

I found a really old article that is missing some cards (butcher f.e.). Is there a more up-to-date list for Big money enabler cards? Like the best of lists that Qvist compiled? I would find that helpful to judge whether I should play BM or an engine.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2532.0

[silverspawn]

I don't know, but the post you linked makes absolutely no sense isn't a good list of BM enablers

Jack and Vault are good BM enablers, also every terminal draw with +3 cards and of course wharf. But the absence of a good engine has always been more important than the presence of specific cards for BM.

[eHalcyon]

I don't know, but the post you linked makes absolutely no sense. I guess people didn't have that good of a grasp on the game two years ago, or maybe some things just changed. Either way, don't try to follow anything it says.

Jack and Vault are good BM enablers, also every terminal draw with +3 cards and of course wharf. But the absence of a good engine has always been more important than the presence of specific cards for BM.

How does that post make no sense?  The author wondered how different BM+X strategies stacked up against each other and investigated using sims.  He lists various caveats, such as the fact that sims weren't properly optimized and that, obviously, sims aren't perfect for multiple reasons.  The list isn't a guide to BM, it's just a very rough ranking of different BM+X cards derived by simulation.

[SCSN]

I would find that helpful to judge whether I should play BM or an engine.

Just close your eyes and turn the key

[WanderingWinder]

The list he linked is not supposed to be a list of BM enablers. It's a list of what's best (very roughly) if you have to play BM, and not engine. That's not AT ALL the same thing as an enabler.

[silverspawn]

that's true. it also explains some of the choices.

[SirD]

The list he linked is not supposed to be a list of BM enablers. It's a list of what's best (very roughly) if you have to play BM, and not engine. That's not AT ALL the same thing as an enabler.

Well I dont understand the difference, I guess. What I was looking for was a way to help me decide if I play BM+something or if I go engine. I mean for example something like this kingdom.

http://gokosalvager.com/kingdomvisualize?logurl=http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20141215/log.516d6636e4b082c74d7bdf6f.1418673880244.txt&width=100&submit=Search
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20141215/log.516d6636e4b082c74d7bdf6f.1418673880244.txt

So I figured a list of cards that enable BM would be helpful for me especially if they are listed in descending order as Qvist make with his excellent Dominion cards list just as a decision aid.

[Mic Qsenoch]

That list is comparing BM strats against each other. So it starts from the assumption "go for BM". It isn't helpful for deciding whether to play BM or engine.

In the board you posted I think the deck you want will probably be classified as an engine. Ghost Ship looks useful so you probably want to counter that with Wishing Wells or Caravans. Using Caravans actually stops Wishing Well countering Ghost Ship, but it still may be worth it to have both because Cartographer enables Wishing Well. Market Square can give +buy. I think a deck with those pieces should be able to beat Ghost Ship BM. Use all the actions to consistently draw your deck and attack your opponent with Ghost Ship. The game will probably take forever.

Many strong cards enable both BM and engines. That's just what happens with strong cards. You should skip an engine if too many of the support pieces are missing: trashing, buy, villages, attack, alt-VP etc. Not necessarily because a good card for BM is available.

[TheOthin]

The list he linked is not supposed to be a list of BM enablers. It's a list of what's best (very roughly) if you have to play BM, and not engine. That's not AT ALL the same thing as an enabler.

Well I dont understand the difference, I guess. What I was looking for was a way to help me decide if I play BM+something or if I go engine. I mean for example something like this kingdom.

http://gokosalvager.com/kingdomvisualize?logurl=http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20141215/log.516d6636e4b082c74d7bdf6f.1418673880244.txt&width=100&submit=Search

So I figured a list of cards that enable BM would be helpful for me especially if they are listed in descending order as Qvist make with his excellent Dominion cards list just as a decision aid.

The distinction is that you don't decide whether or not to go BM based on the availability of cards that go well with BM.

Notice the presence of Wharf at the top: it's just a great card. As a powerful terminal draw card, it's good in BM, but even better in an engine. If you can make an engine using Wharf, you almost certainly want to do it. If you can't make an engine, then you go for BM, and in that case you find that Wharf is still a fantastic choice.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Just to be clear: how well the kingdom cards enable BM does make a difference in whether you go BM or not. It's just not the most important thing, and it's much better practice to read the whole kingdom rather than just one card. And it's usually not the case that a card will enable BM more than it enables an engine (on average), but it may enable BM more in a particular kingdom.

[SirD]

That list is comparing BM strats against each other. So it starts from the assumption "go for BM". It isn't helpful for deciding whether to play BM or engine.

Good, I understand that.

My idea is that first I check if the engine is strong. If it isn't, I have to evaluate what BM+enabler is capable of doing (list) and then decide which one is faster. Does that sound reasonable?

I want to work on that.

[WanderingWinder]

That list is comparing BM strats against each other. So it starts from the assumption "go for BM". It isn't helpful for deciding whether to play BM or engine.

Good, I understand that.

My idea is that first I check if the engine is strong. If it isn't, I have to evaluate what BM+enabler is capable of doing (for which I want a list) and then decide which one is faster. Does that sound reasonable?

I want to work on that I too often go for the more interesting engine strategy and loose.

Well, more or less, but I kinda doubt you lose by going for 'the more interesting strategy' and lose very often because of that - I find it more likely that you're executing said strategy poorly.

[Kirian]

What?

[SirD]

Thank you mic for your helpful post.

[WanderingWinder]

Some concrete examples of cards:

Wharf, as mentioned, shows up as very good for BM, and it is. But the issue is, it's even better for engines - it draws a lot of cards to help you go along, AND it gives buys. Margrave, Council Room are going to be similar.

Ghost Ship is going to show up pretty high because it's an attack that is very oppressive to BM. Same thing for Noble Brigand.

Basically, the top of the list is a combination of cards which are good for BM and good against BM, but it doesn't tell you anything about how good they are in engines, it doesn't tell you anything about the strength of an engine (and strong engines are just better than strong BM), and it doesn't tell you how good those BM strategies are AGAINST engines.

[Awaclus]

Council Room are going to be similar.

I think Council Room is generally better for BM than engines, because the +1 card for the opponent benefits BM a lot more than it benefits an engine.

[DG]

Another thing to consider is alt vp. Some big money enablers are better at sustaining a deck when it might choke on more green cards. This can be important when playing with duchy-duke against an engine player who might buy out provinces, or when trying to buy out the whole province pile before an opponent can outscore you with vineyards or vp chips.

[Davio]

Don't think that engines and BM are mutually exclusive. A lot of boards have neither a strong engine (lack of trashing, big draw, +actions), nor a strong BM enabler. You shouldn't train yourself to either go for an engine or BM, but rather think about the strongest possible deck and which cards it should have. Try to picture the contents of your deck right before you end the game while ahead and start thinking about how to get there as fast as you can. Sometimes fast is horribly slow, BM is never super fast and often easily disrupted, but engines can also take a lot of time to come together.

People tend to overvalue engines because they're a lot more fun to play. Playing 3+ action cards each turn gives you a feeling you're really doing something, even if you can't afford an Estate. As a reaction to this, people like to punish these village idiots by playing simple BM.

Don't be part of either camp, be part of the pragmatic camp if you like winning. Still, getting a feel for how to build a good engine is a lot harder than figuring out how to.optimize BM. So there is a lot of value in going for the engine even if you lose. You'll probably learn more from it.

Experimentation is key and more rewarding in the end. I have so often felt so foolish taking a known default strategy and losing to a surprising out of the box engine. Not because I lost, but because I didn't have the guts to try it myself.

[AdamH]

Just want to say that the article linked in the OP is something I refer new players to in my video tutorial series. I think there are very helpful things to be learned from it, because knowing what it "feels like" to play big money, with certain enablers, can serve as a very useful reference point to compare it to other strategies.

I'd certainly be interested to see it updated to include all cards. Even something as simple as "here's a one-card kingdom, we've tested the best strategies for each of those kingdoms against each other (BM+X) and here are the fastest ones." without even considering interactions between cards (Library+BM gets better against Militia or something) would still be very useful.

I'm willing to contribute, but I'm not really sure how I could -- I can't think of anything I could do for this that would be meaningful right now. I tried working with some sims a while back but I didn't feel like I had a good handle on getting actual useful results out of it.

[c4master]

I'm surprised that noone checked Thief, when Noble Brigand does so surprisingly well in straight BM+X.

Also, I'm really missing all those Witch-BM-variants because junking can be so nasty.