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Elanchana

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Sopiominion?...
« on: December 05, 2014, 08:45:47 pm »
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I'm sure you guys have seen/heard me ramble about Sopio, my other favorite card game. Some of you have probably also seen that post in the really bad card ideas thread where I muse about how some Sopio principles would be awful as Dominion cards. But I keep wondering - what Sopio cards could be transferred over to Dominion? There are already a few equivalents: Mirror Mode is exactly the same as Throne Room and Henchman is really similar to Possession.

So these are some Sopio cards - reworded for clarity/playability - that might have potential as Dominion cards.

Since I'm not a Dominion guru or anything I'm not totally familiar with all the cards so I can't apply the "rules" of new card ideas to what I post here. I'm also completely ignorant on what cards should cost. What I'd love to see in responses is what you think of each card, how you could see it being played (if it's good), and how much it would probably cost. Oh, and most of these are going to be terminal, because Sopio is draw 1 play 1, so tell me if you think any of the effects would be balanced out if there were +actions involved.

Blindfolded - Action
Shuffle your hand into your deck.
+5 cards
(I don't know of any existing card that does this.)

Crystal Bowling Ball - Action
Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. Add one to your hand and discard the other.
(Would definitely need +actions attached - maybe 2? That would make it a slightly better Village.)

Hippy Toilet - Action
Add one card from your discard pile to your hand.
(Again, probably needs +actions.)

Inconspicuous Time Machine - Action/Reaction
(don't know what the included action would be)
--
When you discard a card, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, add the card you would have discarded to your hand.
(Kind of a Scheme variant in reaction form.)

Major Sacrifice - Victory/Reaction
Worth 2VP (maybe?)
--
When this card is trashed, +1 action at the start of your next turn.
(Would 2VP be good? It would have to balance the points vs. the on-trash Village effect.)

Worshipped by Small People - Action/Attack
Name a card. If any opponent has that card in hand, he/she must discard it.
Alternatively: Name a card. If the player to your left has that card in hand, he/she must discard it.
(This would have to be expensive. Overpowered?)

Gingerdead Man - Action
+2 cards
You may discard up to 2 action cards from your hand.
(I could see this comboing well with Shanty Town but I don't know what else. It might need +actions.)

Taste No Evil - Action/Duration
Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. If you reveal an action card, play it. If you reveal 2 action cards, play one this turn and set the other aside. Play it at the start of your next turn. Discard the other card(s).
Alternatively: Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 action cards. Play one of them. Set aside the other and play it at the start of your next turn. Discard the other cards.
(A Herald/Golem variant.)

Unicorn Graveyard - Action
Discard all victory cards from your hand.
(The reverse of Scout? It would combo well with handsize increasers. Probably needs +actions.)

Element: Stone - Action
Discard a card from your hand.
+3 cards
(Cheap Smithy variant if terminal or pretty nice Lab variant if non-terminal.)

That's all the ones I could think of while browsing Sopiopedia. Thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 08:49:58 pm by Elanchana »
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Re: Sopiominion?...
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2014, 09:24:20 pm »
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Blindfolded - Action
Shuffle your hand into your deck.
+5 cards
(I don't know of any existing card that does this.)

Somewhat similar to Minion, Library etc, but not necessarily too much. This could maybe work at $4 if it drew 6 cards instead of 5, or at $5 if it also gave +1 action.

Crystal Bowling Ball - Action
Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. Add one to your hand and discard the other.
(Would definitely need +actions attached - maybe 2? That would make it a slightly better Village.)

I don't think this effect is particularly interesting in Dominion, but it could work as a $4-$5 village. I like $5 more, because weak villages have tendencies to create very interesting boards IMO.

Hippy Toilet - Action
Add one card from your discard pile to your hand.
(Again, probably needs +actions.)
This needs to allow you to look through your discard pile first.

Inconspicuous Time Machine - Action/Reaction
(don't know what the included action would be)
--
When you discard a card, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, add the card you would have discarded to your hand.
(Kind of a Scheme variant in reaction form.)

Isn't this completely useless? I'm a bit tired now and the clean-up phase interactions with this card are pretty complex, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't really do anything relevant in any situation.


Major Sacrifice - Victory/Reaction
Worth 2VP (maybe?)
--
When this card is trashed, +1 action at the start of your next turn.
(Would 2VP be good? It would have to balance the points vs. the on-trash Village effect.)

Needs to be stronger. You don't buy a card and trash a card just to get one Village effect for your next turn.


Worshipped by Small People - Action/Attack
Name a card. If any opponent has that card in hand, he/she must discard it.
Alternatively: Name a card. If the player to your left has that card in hand, he/she must discard it.
(This would have to be expensive. Overpowered?)
It sucks to be the player to your left with the alternative wording, I suggest that you just attack all the players. Also, it's overpowered at any price anyone can ever realistically buy it for, because then pretty much whoever gets the engine rolling first can just play this and name the only village on the board every turn, which probably gives them enough time to buy another one and then they can start naming other cards and discard everyone's hands every turn. Also, the players need to reveal their hands to make sure they're not cheating.

Gingerdead Man - Action
+2 cards
You may discard up to 2 action cards from your hand.
(I could see this comboing well with Shanty Town but I don't know what else. It might need +actions.)
It doesn't really even combo too well with Shanty Town. You don't want Shanty Town if you usually have Actions in your hand that you don't want to play. This is more useful for trashing Ruins with Lookout/Doctor and making your Heralds or Ironmongers hit Actions after you reshuffle mid-turn. In other words, it's not very useful. I was going to suggest a way to fix this card, but then I pretty much just re-invented Oracle.

Taste No Evil - Action/Duration
Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. If you reveal an action card, play it. If you reveal 2 action cards, play one this turn and set the other aside. Play it at the start of your next turn. Discard the other card(s).
Alternatively: Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 action cards. Play one of them. Set aside the other and play it at the start of your next turn. Discard the other cards.
(A Herald/Golem variant.)
The alternative version is very interesting. I think the first one is too complicated and too swingy. I guess with the alternative version it has to cost at least $5.

Unicorn Graveyard - Action
Discard all victory cards from your hand.
(The reverse of Scout? It would combo well with handsize increasers. Probably needs +actions.)
How would it combo well with handsize increasers? You increase your handsize, and then you discard all the Victory cards you've just gotten into your hand, and... then you trigger a mid-turn reshuffle and your next shuffle sucks, and your Cellars are now a lot worse, and you just spent a card in your hand achieving that and nothing else?

Element: Stone - Action
Discard a card from your hand.
+3 cards
(Cheap Smithy variant if terminal or pretty nice Lab variant if non-terminal.)

That's all the ones I could think of while browsing Sopiopedia. Thoughts?
It's strictly better than Stables if non-terminal, and you don't want to make it cost $6, so it pretty much has to be terminal. $2 or $3 would probably be fine for that.
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Elanchana

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Re: Sopiominion?...
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2014, 09:49:59 pm »
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Hippy Toilet - Action
Add one card from your discard pile to your hand.
(Again, probably needs +actions.)
This needs to allow you to look through your discard pile first.

Yep, obvi. Bad rewording on my part.

Inconspicuous Time Machine - Action/Reaction
(don't know what the included action would be)
--
When you discard a card, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, add the card you would have discarded to your hand.
(Kind of a Scheme variant in reaction form.)

Isn't this completely useless? I'm a bit tired now and the clean-up phase interactions with this card are pretty complex, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't really do anything relevant in any situation.

Now that you mention it, yeah, that would be a pretty useless attack reaction. I mean, sure, there's an edge case with something like wanting to keep the curse you'd discard from Mountebank in your hand in order to trash it, but yeah. Maybe I should try rewording it so it would only work in clean-up phase as some sort of cross between Watchtower and Scheme. Of course, that's getting away from the original card's intentions, but hey, if it makes a cool new card idea...

Major Sacrifice - Victory/Reaction
Worth 2VP (maybe?)
--
When this card is trashed, +1 action at the start of your next turn.
(Would 2VP be good? It would have to balance the points vs. the on-trash Village effect.)

Needs to be stronger. You don't buy a card and trash a card just to get one Village effect for your next turn.

Well that's why I'm wondering about how many VP it should have. There should be some advantage to keeping it, but also a benefit to having it trashed (I'm thinking more about trashing attacks or other forced trashing). The Village effect is supposed to go along with the "play two cards next turn" effect on the original, although in Sopio getting to play an extra card is a bigger deal. I want to keep playing around with this idea. Any suggestions?

Unicorn Graveyard - Action
Discard all victory cards from your hand.
(The reverse of Scout? It would combo well with handsize increasers. Probably needs +actions.)
How would it combo well with handsize increasers? You increase your handsize, and then you discard all the Victory cards you've just gotten into your hand, and... then you trigger a mid-turn reshuffle and your next shuffle sucks, and your Cellars are now a lot worse, and you just spent a card in your hand achieving that and nothing else?

I meant it would combo well if played BEFORE handsize increasers. You'd draw a few victory cards into your hand, discard them with this, and then play something like Library or Watchtower for more draw power. It might not be well-thought-out now but I think it could be the start of something interesting.

Thanks for the comments!
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GendoIkari

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Re: Sopiominion?...
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2014, 09:54:50 pm »
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Blindfolded - Action
Shuffle your hand into your deck.
+5 cards
(I don't know of any existing card that does this.)

I like this a lot. The only thing similar really is Minion I think. I have no idea what it should cost, but probably less than Minion. The fact that you shuffle your hand into your deck instead of just discarding your hand is interesting. Most likely that makes it slightly weaker, but could be stronger as well in a more treasure-heavy deck. Probably needs +1 action, because otherwise it's just way too likely that you'll draw dead actions.
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Re: Sopiominion?...
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2014, 10:21:51 pm »
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What I'd love to see in responses is what you think of each card, how you could see it being played (if it's good), and how much it would probably cost.
sure! I'll be super blunt though, so don't take it too hard.

Quote
Blindfolded - Action
Shuffle your hand into your deck.
+5 cards
(I don't know of any existing card that does this.)
The shuffle-hand-into-deck mechanic is, unlike in other games, not interesting in dominion. Drawing a new hand is interesting, but it has already been done, with Minion. The only difference is that this one makes you redraw the cards you just discarded, which is a bad thing, because it makes it so you can't cycle through your deck anymore (like with minion), directly resulting in dead turns.


Quote
Crystal Bowling Ball - Action
Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. Add one to your hand and discard the other.
(Would definitely need +actions attached - maybe 2? That would make it a slightly better Village.)
Super old idea, has been tried/proposed a lot of times. It would be too strong 2 actions, and useless with 0, so it needs to have one. One of the cards in this category I considered was this:

Quote
c? - Action - 3/4$
+1 Action
Look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Put one of them into your hand. Discard one. Put one on top of your deck
which looks at 3 instead of 2 and also topdecks one, because why not. I think it'd be fine powerwise, but it just wasn't original/interesting enough for my taste. If you want to try it anyway, start with +1 action and looking at 3 cards, and make it cost 3$ or 4$.

Quote
Hippy Toilet - Action
Add one card from your discard pile to your hand.
(Again, probably needs +actions.)
Another old idea. I've actually considered a version of this too:

Quote
c? - Action - 3$
+1 Action
Look through your discard pile. You may put a card from it into your hand. If you don't, +1 Card
That's less swingy, and it would probably also be fine, but I decided not to try it. If you do it, I'd make it non-terminal and cost between 2$ and 4$. It's nothing new though.

Quote
Inconspicuous Time Machine - Action/Reaction
(don't know what the included action would be)
--
When you discard a card, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, add the card you would have discarded to your hand.
(Kind of a Scheme variant in reaction form.)
I saw this very recently in the fan expansion of someone. I don't remember who it was. His version didn't discard itself though, which I discouraged because it meant that pretty much every sifter was crazy strong in combination with the reaction. I like this version more, because it doesn't make every combination with any sifter a must-go-for.

It is pretty weak though, and it of course needs some kind of top part. I would try to come up with a cheap effect, preferably make it a card costing 2$.

Quote
Major Sacrifice - Victory/Reaction
Worth 2VP (maybe?)
--
When this card is trashed, +1 action at the start of your next turn.
(Would 2VP be good? It would have to balance the points vs. the on-trash Village effect.)
This is bad because you'll never buy it, unless you just want the VP's. The on trash is nowhere near good enough to make it worth it. It's also untrackable, which might not be the worst thing, because it's a really simple effect.

Quote
Worshipped by Small People - Action/Attack
Name a card. If any opponent has that card in hand, he/she must discard it.
Alternatively: Name a card. If the player to your left has that card in hand, he/she must discard it.
(This would have to be expensive. Overpowered?)
there is consensus in dominion that political effects are strictly forbidden (political = every decision where you have to value one player against another one, you'll notice that every attack in dominion is global for this reason). The second version is political, and therefore a no-go. The first version is something I've been having in my head for a while, but I never went for it. There are just too many problems, like a) it's super strong, b) it's super swingy, c) it can still be political, if you know opponent A has card X and opponent B has card Y. I don't really see a way to solve any of those, so I would not try it.

Quote
Gingerdead Man - Action
+2 cards
You may discard up to 2 action cards from your hand.
(I could see this comboing well with Shanty Town but I don't know what else. It might need +actions.)
Well, you probably want it to be terminal and draw 3 cards, because with an Action it's too strong, and as a 2-card terminal effect it's too weak. The problem here is that it's a dud in most games: discarding usually doesn't do anything. Also, restricting it to Action cards is a pretty random idea. You could reward it for discarding Action cards I guess? but that's probably less fun than playing those Action cards.

A somewhat similar idea that someone posted a while ago and that I did like was this:

Quote
?? - Action - 5$
+3 Cards.
You may put any number of cards on top of your deck.

this version is more useful, because topdecking > discarding in relevance, and it's more elegant. It's just a little bit weak.


Quote
Taste No Evil - Action/Duration
Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. If you reveal an action card, play it. If you reveal 2 action cards, play one this turn and set the other aside. Play it at the start of your next turn. Discard the other card(s).
Alternatively: Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 action cards. Play one of them. Set aside the other and play it at the start of your next turn. Discard the other cards.
(A Herald/Golem variant.)
The question here is: where is the appeal of this card (version 1) over Herald? It's not really there. Herald already plays cards from the top of your deck, and requires you to have a high Action density to make it work. Your card plays cards from the top of your deck, and requires you to have a high Action density to make it work. The concept is identical, only Herald is properly worded and balanced.

The same goes for the second version, only replace Herald with Golem.

Quote
Unicorn Graveyard - Action
Discard all victory cards from your hand.
(The reverse of Scout? It would combo well with handsize increasers. Probably needs +actions.)
Here it's again the problem: you don't want this. If a card is just good for a specific combo, than that combo either needs to be available all the time (like Fortress trashing), or the card needs to make the combo work by itself (like Minion's discard + non-terminal virtual money). This does neither, it'll just be useless in the majority of games. There are only 3 draw-to-x cards in the entire game, the chance of one of them being there is very low.

Quote
Element: Stone - Action
Discard a card from your hand.
+3 cards
(Cheap Smithy variant if terminal or pretty nice Lab variant if non-terminal.)
As a Lab variant, it's way too strong (-> Stables). As a smithy variant, it's kind of made unnecessary by courtyard. The best thing I could come up with right now would be to make it non-terminal and discard 2 cards instead of 1. Then you get a sifter that doesn't increase handsize, and would be alright at 5$ I guess. The problem here is, sifter that doesn't increase your handsize at 5$ has been done too, with Cartographer. Making you dicsard first is kind of new. Not terribly excited about it though.

The best idea here is the "discard me to put another discarded card into your hand" imo.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 10:25:03 pm by silverspawn »
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silverspawn

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Re: Sopiominion?...
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2014, 10:34:58 pm »
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about Inconspicuous Time Machine, you could just make the top part a cantrip and discard the top card of your deck. Like so:

Quote
Inconspicuous Time Machine - Action - 2$
+1 Card
+1 Action
Discard the top card of your deck.
---
During your Action phase, when one of your cards is discarded, you may discard this. If you do, put that card into your hand.

That way you have a mix of two concepts from your post (the other one is Crystal Bowling Ball), but in a really subtle way, and you add a sort of interaction with some cards (like Harvest, cartographer, spy, navigator, ...) and a light counter against some (rabble, spy, oracle, ...)

Elanchana

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Re: Sopiominion?...
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2014, 10:54:44 pm »
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^ That would be... kind of awesome. It deviates from the point of the Sopio card - to be able to use a card after it's been "used up" - but it makes for a neat concept.

Something I just thought of, though, is a different interpretation of ITM that would react to trashing rather than discarding. Like, when you would trash a card, do use ITM and do something else with that card. It would combo really well with one shots and card cost trashers, not to mention trashing attacks. What would be more effective, though? Discarding ITM or trashing it? Discarding the other card, topdecking it, or putting it into your hand? Would there be an option that isn't overpowered?
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Re: Sopiominion?...
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2014, 08:24:31 am »
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I meant it would combo well if played BEFORE handsize increasers. You'd draw a few victory cards into your hand, discard them with this, and then play something like Library or Watchtower for more draw power.
Oh, so you were talking about draw-to-X. I thought you were talking about Smithy and other cards that always increase your hand size.

Quote
Taste No Evil - Action/Duration
Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. If you reveal an action card, play it. If you reveal 2 action cards, play one this turn and set the other aside. Play it at the start of your next turn. Discard the other card(s).
Alternatively: Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 action cards. Play one of them. Set aside the other and play it at the start of your next turn. Discard the other cards.
(A Herald/Golem variant.)
The question here is: where is the appeal of this card (version 1) over Herald? It's not really there. Herald already plays cards from the top of your deck, and requires you to have a high Action density to make it work. Your card plays cards from the top of your deck, and requires you to have a high Action density to make it work. The concept is identical, only Herald is properly worded and balanced.

The same goes for the second version, only replace Herald with Golem.

The second version is very different from Golem. Golem is pretty easy to use, Taste No Evil version 2 is more difficult.
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Re: Sopiominion?...
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2014, 09:28:04 am »
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Crystal Bowling Ball - Action
Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. Add one to your hand and discard the other.
(Would definitely need +actions attached - maybe 2? That would make it a slightly better Village.)

Very similar to a card i made up some long time ago (though it's so simple i doubt nobody had the idea, before):

Ranger, 2$
+1 Action
Reveal the top two cards of your deck. Put one in your hand and discard the other one.

The fact that it can make you discard a good card (edit: among other things) makes it not-quite-strictly-better than Vagrant.


Also
Gingerdead Man - Action
+2 cards
You may discard up to 2 action cards from your hand.

Reminds me of Vault. Or my own card Wizard, which did some stuff with Potions, drew 3 cards and could only discard action cards (and Potions) for 2$ each.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 09:39:30 am by Asper »
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Re: Sopiominion?...
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2014, 08:13:23 pm »
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Cellar is capable of discarding unwanted cards, except it can sift through anything instead of just victory cards and replaces them on its own rather than needing a combo. And it's already cheap and not that strong.
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Re: Sopiominion?...
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2014, 10:35:51 am »
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Idea for Unicorn Graveyard... Combine discard with draw to x in one card.
"Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand."

Works like cellar when you have a full hand. Works like watchtower when you have a small hand. So you get the best of both. Could be non-terminal and draw to 5 instead. Dunno about the cost. But it does what UG wants to do.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 12:01:04 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Sopiominion?...
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2014, 12:15:31 pm »
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Yeah, Unicorn Graveyard and Gingerdead Man both just need a bonus for discarding. Draw to x is okay, but it could be anything. (Gain Silver, Spoils, Coin/ VP token, +$1, trash, sift are things that come to my mind.)
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