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Author Topic: Table: How to defend against attacks  (Read 15300 times)

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Bench of Bishops

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Table: How to defend against attacks
« on: December 01, 2014, 08:38:49 am »
+7

This article is, of course, inspired by Donald X's article, "Your Guide to Beating Attacks". I thought it would be fun to have something in table format, as unwieldy as it may seem, because (1) I hear new players IRL ask why a particular reaction card like Secret Chamber is actually useful and maybe this can help them compare various defenses, and (2) because I like tables and spreadsheets.

I've never played with some of these cards (e.g. Possession, Market Square), and I'm still learning a lot, so I appreciate lots of feedback on the article. I wrote it for fun, so I don't expect it to actually go up anywhere except here, though I'd be happy for some or all of it to go on the wiki if others think it would be useful there.

In the table below, "Protection" doesn't necessarily mean perfect protection. In most cells of the table, it just means "pretty good protection in most cases". "Some protection", on the other hand, means that the attack is much more likely only weakened, not nullified.

Edit 12/28/14: Added cards with on-trash benefits and cards that sequester other cards out of your deck as new categories.

Direct defenses that weaken or nullify the direct effects of the attack:
HANDSIZE ATTACKSJUNKERSTRASHERSDECK MUCKERS
Discard-down-to-X (e.g. Militia), discard X cards (e.g. Torturer)Remove specific card or card type (e.g. Bureaucrat, Cutpurse)Discard hand and draw new (smaller) hand (Minion)Junkers (e.g. Witch, Ambassador, Looters)Non-attack cursers (Ill-Gotten Gains, Embargo)Trash indiscriminately (e.g. Swindler)Trash specific card types (e.g. Thief, Saboteur)Get low-quality cards to top of your deck (e.g. Spy, Rabble)
Moat's reactionProtectionProtectionProtectionProtectionNo protectionProtectionProtectionProtection
Lighthouse's durationProtectionProtectionProtectionProtectionNo protectionProtectionProtectionProtection
Beggar's reactionSome protection; gain silversSome protection; gain silversSome protection; gain silvers and avoid discarding whole hand by voluntarily discardingNo protection; gain silversNo protectionProtection; gain silverMixed protectionSome protection: attack targets silver instead of another card
Secret Chamber's reactionSome protection; helps turn attack into siftingProtection: topdeck cards that would be targetedSome protection: Topdeck cards you want to draw in your new handNo protection; shape your handNo protectionSome protection: choose which card will be targetedSome protection: choose which card will be targetedSome protection: choose which cards will be targeted
Market Square's reactionNo protectionNo protectionNo protectionNo protectionNo protectionNo protection; gain goldNo protection; gain goldNo protection
Tunnel's reactionNo protection; gain goldNo protection; gain gold (unless it's a non-discard attack like Bureaucrat/Ghost Ship)No protection; gain goldNo protectionNo protectionNo protectionNo protection; gain gold if Tunnel is discarded as part of attackNo protection; gain gold if discarded (which is unlikely)
Watchtower's reactionNo protectionNo protectionNo protectionProtectionProtectionNo protectionNo protectionNo protection
Horse Traders' reactionProtectionProtectionProtectionNo protection; handsize increaseNo protectionNo protection; handsize increaseNo protection; handsize increaseNo protection; handsize increase
Trader's reactionProtectionProtectionProtectionProtectionProtectionNo protectionNo protectionNo protection

Indirect defenses: cards that get stronger in the face of attacks
HANDSIZE ATTACKSJUNKERSTRASHERSDECK MUCKERS
Discard-down-to-X (e.g. Militia), discard X cards (e.g. Torturer)Remove specific card or card type (e.g. Bureaucrat, Cutpurse)Discard hand and draw new (smaller) hand (Minion)Junkers (e.g. Witch, Ambassador, Looters)Non-attack cursers (Ill-Gotten Gains, Embargo)Trash indiscriminately (e.g. Swindler)Trash specific card types (e.g. Thief, Saboteur)Get low-quality cards to top of your deck (e.g. Spy, Rabble)
Jack of all tradesProtectionProtection; helps turn attack into siftingNo protection if Jack in hand; protection if in your next handNo protection; helps trash junk in generalNo protection; helps trash junk in generalNo protection; gain silverNo protection; gain silverSome protection: Discard or trash bad cards left on deck
Draw-up-to-xProtection; turns attack into siftingProtection; helps turn attack into siftingNo protection if draw-to-x in hand; Protection if in your next handNo protectionNo protectionNo protectionNo protectionNo protection
MenagerieProtection if it increases hand varietyProtection if it increases hand varietyProtection if it increases hand varietyNo protectionNo protectionNo protectionNo protectionNo protection
Seeking cards (e.g. Hunting Party, Adventurer, Golem, Hermit)No protectionNo protectionNo protectionMost offer no protection; some offer protection (e.g. Hermit)Most offer no protection; some offer protection (e.g. Hermit)Weakens attack, as the card you're trying to draw doesn't have to be near the top of your deckWeakens attack, as the card you're trying to draw doesn't have to be near the top of your deckWeakens attack, as the card you're trying to draw doesn't have to be near the top of your deck
Self deck inspection and/or topdeck control (e.g. Spy, Scrying Pool, Lookout, Scout, Cartographer)No protectionNo protectionNo protectionNo protectionNo protectionNo protectionNo protectionProtection
SiftersNo protectionNo protectionNo protectionProtection from earlier junkProtection from earlier junkNo protectionNo protectionProtection
Cards with on-trash benefits (e.g. Hunting Grounds, Feodum, Squire, etc.)No protectionNo protectionNo protectionNo protectionNo protectionSome protectionSome protectionNo protection
Cards that sequester your cards out of your deck (e.g. Island, Native Village)No protectionSome protectionNo protectionSome protectionSome protectionSome protectionSome protectionSome protection


Proactive strategies to weaken/nullify attacks
HANDSIZE ATTACKSJUNKERSTRASHERSDECK MUCKERS
Discard-down-to-X (e.g. Militia), discard X cards (e.g. Torturer)Remove specific card or card type (e.g. Bureaucrat, Cutpurse)Discard hand and draw new (smaller) hand (Minion)Junkers (e.g. Witch, Ambassador, Looters)Non-attack cursers (Ill-Gotten Gains, Embargo)Trash indiscriminately (e.g. Swindler)Trash specific card types (e.g. Thief, Saboteur)Get low-quality cards to top of your deck (e.g. Spy, Rabble)
Deck thinningExcellent protectionExcellent protectionExcellent protectionExcellent protectionExcellent protectionMixed protectionMixed protectionProtection
Deck-drawing engine (or close to deck-drawing)Excellent protectionExcellent protectionExcellent protectionExcellent protection, if with trashingExcellent protection, if with trashingNo protection; vulnerable to trashing key cardsNo protection; vulnerable to trashing key cardsMixed protection
Big Money (probably including some other cards too)No protectionNo protectionNo protectionSome protectionSome protectionSome protectionSome protectionSome protection
Slog deckExcellent protectionMixed protectionNo protectionSome protectionSome protectionMixed protectionProtectionNo protection

Some closing notes:
Remember that sometimes the best defense is good offense.

In the proactive strategies section, I wasn't able to elaborate on the "Mixed protection" cells, where sometimes the strategy offers great protection, and sometimes it actually helps the attacker do more damage (or benefit more from you). For example, is deck thinning good against trashers? Well, clearing out coppers sure helps against Swindler and Pirate Ship, but can hurt against Thief. Clearing all your treasures helps against thief, but might hurt against Saboteur once you no longer have all those silvers for Sab to target. Many of those cells have whole articles already. And anyway, that's beyond the scope of this article.

Masquerade and Possession are special cases. First, they're not attacks (and are much less like attacks than Ill-Gotten Gains or a curse from an Embargoed pile) and they usually don't really hurt you much. Masquerade usually lets you swap out one piece of junk for another, and Possession is usually just like a more powerful Outpost for your opponent. And second, there's usually not a lot you can do to counter these directly.

There are times when they can hurt you, though. Masquerade can hurt if you've trashed all your junk, and of course there's the Masquerade Pin. Possession can be evil if they spend your coin tokens, empty your Native Island mat, remove your valuable cards from your deck via Island/Masquerade/Ambassador, weaken your next play by moving weak cards to the top of your deck, etc.

So, if you do want to counter them, how? If the likelihood is small that Masq or Posssession can be used as a pseudo-attack, don't worry about defense. If the chance is high, is it worth it to adjust your deck to make them more resistant (don't trash too much in the face of Masq; maybe lean toward a slog deck in the face of Possession)? Or maybe you should consider that the best defense is a good offense. Or maybe you can just blow past your opponent with a fast strategy before their Masq/Possession can actually hurt you much.

I didn't include non-attack, indiscriminate discarders, such as Tribute, even though they can occasionally be used as a weak attack - for example, force the opponent to reshuffle when they're about to play Counting House or Hermit. But very few things protect against that specifically, though some cards do help you get more stuff into your discard pile - sifters, Chancellor, seeker cards like Venture.

In the "Proactive strategies" section, I obviously couldn't include every separate strategy (including a separate strategy for each combo?!). I tried to include a few very general strategies that have can proactively protect against a broad range of attacks.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 04:56:13 pm by Bench of Bishops »
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qdread

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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2014, 11:47:16 am »
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Well, Watchtower should be noted to give protection from handsize reducing attacks, even potentially improving your hand quality.
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2014, 11:59:25 am »
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Well, Watchtower should be noted to give protection from handsize reducing attacks, even potentially improving your hand quality.
And it is.
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2014, 12:46:28 pm »
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Horse Traders *does* protect from Minion, because you now only have four cards in hand.
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2014, 02:32:32 pm »
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Well, Watchtower should be noted to give protection from handsize reducing attacks, even potentially improving your hand quality.

This falls under "indirect defenses" though, where Draw-to-X cards are listed. Watchtower's reaction doesn't protect.
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faust

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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2014, 02:32:56 pm »
0

Horse Traders *does* protect from Minion, because you now only have four cards in hand.

Same with Beggar.
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werothegreat

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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2014, 02:37:34 pm »
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Horse Traders *does* protect from Minion, because you now only have four cards in hand.

Same with Beggar.

They also both fully protect against Pillage and Taxman.
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2014, 03:11:31 pm »
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Horse Traders *does* protect from Minion, because you now only have four cards in hand.

Same with Beggar.

They also both fully protect against Pillage and Taxman.

werothegreat, thanks, I've corrected Horse Traders' reaction re: Minion. I'm updating the post now. Also, I would consider both Pillage and Taxman to be in the "Remove specific card or card type" category of handsize attacks. Horse Traders is listed as protecting against that kind of attack. How does Beggar's reaction protect against that kind of attack? It doesn't help you increase your handsize in response to that sort of attack, does it?

Or if you're referring to Beggar's non-reaction ability, maybe I should create another row in the Indirect defenses - something like in-hand gainers. Beggar helps add some cards and money; Trader helps trash in-hand-gained cards (such as via Torturer and Masquerade) and gain Silver instead; etc.

faust, I don't think Beggar protects against Minion's attack, at least as I'm using the word "protect". Minion's attack does two things - discards and reduces your hand size. I'm not considering indiscriminate discarding as an attack, because it's as likely to help you as hurt you (unless it's used strategically as I note at the bottom of my post). Likewise with indiscriminate discarding by Sea Hag, Tribute, etc. So the harm from Minion's attack comes from the handsize reduction, and Beggar doesn't help with that. So as I note, Beggar doesn't protect (you still end up with 4 cards in hand), but it does help if you want to make sure one of those 4 cards is a Silver. Unless I misunderstand your point, or how Beggar is played? I've never played with Beggar.
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2014, 03:18:19 pm »
+1

You play Pillage.  I discard Beggar.  You no longer get to look at my hand.  You would most likely have made me discard something better than a crappy Beggar.

You play Taxman.  I discard Beggar.  I am no longer affected by your Attack in any way, and I'd most like rather have the Treasure I would have had to discard than a crappy Beggar.
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2014, 03:21:36 pm »
0

I think you don't even need the comparison of beggar vs the card you would have lost instead (which could be a copper, after all), because you don't "lose" beggar, you trade it for 2 silvers, similar of how you discard market square for a gold. that's usually a good trade.

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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2014, 06:31:54 pm »
0

You play Pillage.  I discard Beggar.  You no longer get to look at my hand.  You would most likely have made me discard something better than a crappy Beggar.

You play Taxman.  I discard Beggar.  I am no longer affected by your Attack in any way, and I'd most like rather have the Treasure I would have had to discard than a crappy Beggar.

*slaps forehead* I was forgetting you could set aside a card, or choose to discard via a reaction, and dodge some attacks. I'll update the post.
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2014, 06:38:58 pm »
0

You play Pillage.  I discard Beggar.  You no longer get to look at my hand.  You would most likely have made me discard something better than a crappy Beggar.

You play Taxman.  I discard Beggar.  I am no longer affected by your Attack in any way, and I'd most like rather have the Treasure I would have had to discard than a crappy Beggar.

*slaps forehead* I was forgetting you could set aside a card, or choose to discard via a reaction, and dodge some attacks. I'll update the post.

Ok, I modified the table to update Beggar's and Horse Trader's ability to voluntarily discard or set aside a card to dodge part or all of a discard attack.

I left Beggar as "Some protection" for Minion's attack. Yes, if you discard Beggar via Beggar's reaction, you avoid discarding your entire hand and drawing a new one. But you're still left with a 4-card hand, which could still weaken you - for example if you were planning to use Cellar to discard Beggar, or if you actually wanted to use Beggar's copper-gaining ability. It offers some protection, but not the same level of protection as Moat or Lighthouse.
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2014, 06:51:59 pm »
+2

You play Pillage.  I discard Beggar.  You no longer get to look at my hand.  You would most likely have made me discard something better than a crappy Beggar.

You play Taxman.  I discard Beggar.  I am no longer affected by your Attack in any way, and I'd most like rather have the Treasure I would have had to discard than a crappy Beggar.

*slaps forehead* I was forgetting you could set aside a card, or choose to discard via a reaction, and dodge some attacks. I'll update the post.

Ok, I modified the table to update Beggar's and Horse Trader's ability to voluntarily discard or set aside a card to dodge part or all of a discard attack.

I left Beggar as "Some protection" for Minion's attack. Yes, if you discard Beggar via Beggar's reaction, you avoid discarding your entire hand and drawing a new one. But you're still left with a 4-card hand, which could still weaken you - for example if you were planning to use Cellar to discard Beggar, or if you actually wanted to use Beggar's copper-gaining ability. It offers some protection, but not the same level of protection as Moat or Lighthouse.

Especially since you have to basically double-seahag yourself to use it
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2014, 06:55:22 pm »
+2

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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2014, 07:34:26 pm »
+7

Somehow I expected Ozle to respond with "Is it moat?"
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2014, 11:04:33 am »
0

I kind of missed Philosopher's Stone on this list, as it becomes stronger when you are junked and discard attacks may push it by one if you are lucky (actually reaching the next 5-step by discarding 2 cards to Militia isn't as unlikely).

Or does that count as a slog strategy like i assume Gardens would?
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2014, 11:10:02 am »
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I kind of missed Philosopher's Stone on this list, as it becomes stronger when you are junked and discard attacks may push it by one if you are lucky (actually reaching the next 5-step by discarding 2 cards to Militia isn't as unlikely).

Or does that count as a slog strategy like i assume Gardens would?

It counts as a trap strategy.
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Asper

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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2014, 11:19:07 am »
0

I kind of missed Philosopher's Stone on this list, as it becomes stronger when you are junked and discard attacks may push it by one if you are lucky (actually reaching the next 5-step by discarding 2 cards to Militia isn't as unlikely).

Or does that count as a slog strategy like i assume Gardens would?

It counts as a trap strategy.

Believe that, if you wish.

Not too long ago i bought Watchtower as one of my opening buys, got a few Squires and trashed them for Familiars, topdecking them. My opponent went for Philosopher's Stone and his deck was full of Curses in a flash. I said "We should probably stop this, here." Then he played his Philosopher's Stones, reached 12$, bought a Colony, and suddenly we were equal on points while he had some crazy strong Treasures and most i had was useless cantrips. He won, of course.
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2014, 11:30:39 am »
0

I kind of missed Philosopher's Stone on this list, as it becomes stronger when you are junked and discard attacks may push it by one if you are lucky (actually reaching the next 5-step by discarding 2 cards to Militia isn't as unlikely).

Or does that count as a slog strategy like i assume Gardens would?

It counts as a trap strategy.

Believe that, if you wish.

Not too long ago i bought Watchtower as one of my opening buys, got a few Squires and trashed them for Familiars, topdecking them. My opponent went for Philosopher's Stone and his deck was full of Curses in a flash. I said "We should probably stop this, here." Then he played his Philosopher's Stones, reached 12$, bought a Colony, and suddenly we were equal on points while he had some crazy strong Treasures and most i had was useless cantrips. He won, of course.

Well, why didn't you buy cards other than useless cantrips?
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2014, 05:51:07 pm »
+2

Can someone remind me why we are attacking Tables again?
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2014, 07:20:41 pm »
0

I kind of missed Philosopher's Stone on this list, as it becomes stronger when you are junked and discard attacks may push it by one if you are lucky (actually reaching the next 5-step by discarding 2 cards to Militia isn't as unlikely).

Or does that count as a slog strategy like i assume Gardens would?

It counts as a trap strategy.

Believe that, if you wish.

Not too long ago i bought Watchtower as one of my opening buys, got a few Squires and trashed them for Familiars, topdecking them. My opponent went for Philosopher's Stone and his deck was full of Curses in a flash. I said "We should probably stop this, here." Then he played his Philosopher's Stones, reached 12$, bought a Colony, and suddenly we were equal on points while he had some crazy strong Treasures and most i had was useless cantrips. He won, of course.

Well, why didn't you buy cards other than useless cantrips?

I didn't buy those Familiars, i bought and trashed Squires. Also i don't think it were more than three of them, either. And i never said that my deck was all useless cantrips. Just most of my aquired cards besides Watchtower were. He bought that Colony really early.

I'm not saying "OMG Philosopher's Stone is so awesome, buy it always, especially if there are attacks on the board!!11"
I'm saying "If you fear that there will be a lot of junking and/or discard attacks, with most of those coming from other players than you (newsflash: not all games are 2 player), you should consider that PS strategies work relatively unaffected of those."
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2014, 07:25:34 pm »
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Well, you did win, right?
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2014, 08:32:26 pm »
+1

Video
This should actually be added to the table. Junking attacks of your own mitigate the effect of junking attacks (especially if you outpace them).
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2014, 08:49:10 pm »
0

Well, you did win, right?

As i wrote before, no i didn't. With the first Colony he had negated the VP difference caused by the curses. My Familiars didn't do anything to harm him, anymore, and he always had 2$ more per PS. I guess a better player than me would have won, and maybe he was lucky. Maybe the fact that it was a Colony game favoured PS, too. Still it surprised me how something i thought of as a sure win could go so wrong.
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Re: Table: How to defend against attacks
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2014, 10:10:58 pm »
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The problem that I have with using PStone as a counter to junking attacks is that it's not reliable to consistently line up $3P to buy your PStones. Because your shuffles take forever, even missing a single PStone buy can mean that you're screwed.
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