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[Bench of Bishops]

This article is, of course, inspired by Donald X's article, "Your Guide to Beating Attacks". I thought it would be fun to have something in table format, as unwieldy as it may seem, because (1) I hear new players IRL ask why a particular reaction card like Secret Chamber is actually useful and maybe this can help them compare various defenses, and (2) because I like tables and spreadsheets.

I've never played with some of these cards (e.g. Possession, Market Square), and I'm still learning a lot, so I appreciate lots of feedback on the article. I wrote it for fun, so I don't expect it to actually go up anywhere except here, though I'd be happy for some or all of it to go on the wiki if others think it would be useful there.

In the table below, "Protection" doesn't necessarily mean perfect protection. In most cells of the table, it just means "pretty good protection in most cases". "Some protection", on the other hand, means that the attack is much more likely only weakened, not nullified.

Edit 12/28/14: Added cards with on-trash benefits and cards that sequester other cards out of your deck as new categories.

Direct defenses that weaken or nullify the direct effects of the attack:

	HANDSIZE ATTACKS			JUNKERS		TRASHERS		DECK MUCKERS
	Discard-down-to-X (e.g. Militia), discard X cards (e.g. Torturer)	Remove specific card or card type (e.g. Bureaucrat, Cutpurse)	Discard hand and draw new (smaller) hand (Minion)	Junkers (e.g. Witch, Ambassador, Looters)	Non-attack cursers (Ill-Gotten Gains, Embargo)	Trash indiscriminately (e.g. Swindler)	Trash specific card types (e.g. Thief, Saboteur)	Get low-quality cards to top of your deck (e.g. Spy, Rabble)
Moat's reaction	Protection	Protection	Protection	Protection	No protection	Protection	Protection	Protection
Lighthouse's duration	Protection	Protection	Protection	Protection	No protection	Protection	Protection	Protection
Beggar's reaction	Some protection; gain silvers	Some protection; gain silvers	Some protection; gain silvers and avoid discarding whole hand by voluntarily discarding	No protection; gain silvers	No protection	Protection; gain silver	Mixed protection	Some protection: attack targets silver instead of another card
Secret Chamber's reaction	Some protection; helps turn attack into sifting	Protection: topdeck cards that would be targeted	Some protection: Topdeck cards you want to draw in your new hand	No protection; shape your hand	No protection	Some protection: choose which card will be targeted	Some protection: choose which card will be targeted	Some protection: choose which cards will be targeted
Market Square's reaction	No protection	No protection	No protection	No protection	No protection	No protection; gain gold	No protection; gain gold	No protection
Tunnel's reaction	No protection; gain gold	No protection; gain gold (unless it's a non-discard attack like Bureaucrat/Ghost Ship)	No protection; gain gold	No protection	No protection	No protection	No protection; gain gold if Tunnel is discarded as part of attack	No protection; gain gold if discarded (which is unlikely)
Watchtower's reaction	No protection	No protection	No protection	Protection	Protection	No protection	No protection	No protection
Horse Traders' reaction	Protection	Protection	Protection	No protection; handsize increase	No protection	No protection; handsize increase	No protection; handsize increase	No protection; handsize increase
Trader's reaction	Protection	Protection	Protection	Protection	Protection	No protection	No protection	No protection

Indirect defenses: cards that get stronger in the face of attacks

	HANDSIZE ATTACKS			JUNKERS		TRASHERS		DECK MUCKERS
	Discard-down-to-X (e.g. Militia), discard X cards (e.g. Torturer)	Remove specific card or card type (e.g. Bureaucrat, Cutpurse)	Discard hand and draw new (smaller) hand (Minion)	Junkers (e.g. Witch, Ambassador, Looters)	Non-attack cursers (Ill-Gotten Gains, Embargo)	Trash indiscriminately (e.g. Swindler)	Trash specific card types (e.g. Thief, Saboteur)	Get low-quality cards to top of your deck (e.g. Spy, Rabble)
Jack of all trades	Protection	Protection; helps turn attack into sifting	No protection if Jack in hand; protection if in your next hand	No protection; helps trash junk in general	No protection; helps trash junk in general	No protection; gain silver	No protection; gain silver	Some protection: Discard or trash bad cards left on deck
Draw-up-to-x	Protection; turns attack into sifting	Protection; helps turn attack into sifting	No protection if draw-to-x in hand; Protection if in your next hand	No protection	No protection	No protection	No protection	No protection
Menagerie	Protection if it increases hand variety	Protection if it increases hand variety	Protection if it increases hand variety	No protection	No protection	No protection	No protection	No protection
Seeking cards (e.g. Hunting Party, Adventurer, Golem, Hermit)	No protection	No protection	No protection	Most offer no protection; some offer protection (e.g. Hermit)	Most offer no protection; some offer protection (e.g. Hermit)	Weakens attack, as the card you're trying to draw doesn't have to be near the top of your deck	Weakens attack, as the card you're trying to draw doesn't have to be near the top of your deck	Weakens attack, as the card you're trying to draw doesn't have to be near the top of your deck
Self deck inspection and/or topdeck control (e.g. Spy, Scrying Pool, Lookout, Scout, Cartographer)	No protection	No protection	No protection	No protection	No protection	No protection	No protection	Protection
Sifters	No protection	No protection	No protection	Protection from earlier junk	Protection from earlier junk	No protection	No protection	Protection
Cards with on-trash benefits (e.g. Hunting Grounds, Feodum, Squire, etc.)	No protection	No protection	No protection	No protection	No protection	Some protection	Some protection	No protection
Cards that sequester your cards out of your deck (e.g. Island, Native Village)	No protection	Some protection	No protection	Some protection	Some protection	Some protection	Some protection	Some protection

Proactive strategies to weaken/nullify attacks

	HANDSIZE ATTACKS			JUNKERS		TRASHERS		DECK MUCKERS
	Discard-down-to-X (e.g. Militia), discard X cards (e.g. Torturer)	Remove specific card or card type (e.g. Bureaucrat, Cutpurse)	Discard hand and draw new (smaller) hand (Minion)	Junkers (e.g. Witch, Ambassador, Looters)	Non-attack cursers (Ill-Gotten Gains, Embargo)	Trash indiscriminately (e.g. Swindler)	Trash specific card types (e.g. Thief, Saboteur)	Get low-quality cards to top of your deck (e.g. Spy, Rabble)
Deck thinning	Excellent protection	Excellent protection	Excellent protection	Excellent protection	Excellent protection	Mixed protection	Mixed protection	Protection
Deck-drawing engine (or close to deck-drawing)	Excellent protection	Excellent protection	Excellent protection	Excellent protection, if with trashing	Excellent protection, if with trashing	No protection; vulnerable to trashing key cards	No protection; vulnerable to trashing key cards	Mixed protection
Big Money (probably including some other cards too)	No protection	No protection	No protection	Some protection	Some protection	Some protection	Some protection	Some protection
Slog deck	Excellent protection	Mixed protection	No protection	Some protection	Some protection	Mixed protection	Protection	No protection

Some closing notes:
Remember that sometimes the best defense is good offense.

In the proactive strategies section, I wasn't able to elaborate on the "Mixed protection" cells, where sometimes the strategy offers great protection, and sometimes it actually helps the attacker do more damage (or benefit more from you). For example, is deck thinning good against trashers? Well, clearing out coppers sure helps against Swindler and Pirate Ship, but can hurt against Thief. Clearing all your treasures helps against thief, but might hurt against Saboteur once you no longer have all those silvers for Sab to target. Many of those cells have whole articles already. And anyway, that's beyond the scope of this article.

Masquerade and Possession are special cases. First, they're not attacks (and are much less like attacks than Ill-Gotten Gains or a curse from an Embargoed pile) and they usually don't really hurt you much. Masquerade usually lets you swap out one piece of junk for another, and Possession is usually just like a more powerful Outpost for your opponent. And second, there's usually not a lot you can do to counter these directly.

There are times when they can hurt you, though. Masquerade can hurt if you've trashed all your junk, and of course there's the Masquerade Pin. Possession can be evil if they spend your coin tokens, empty your Native Island mat, remove your valuable cards from your deck via Island/Masquerade/Ambassador, weaken your next play by moving weak cards to the top of your deck, etc.

So, if you do want to counter them, how? If the likelihood is small that Masq or Posssession can be used as a pseudo-attack, don't worry about defense. If the chance is high, is it worth it to adjust your deck to make them more resistant (don't trash too much in the face of Masq; maybe lean toward a slog deck in the face of Possession)? Or maybe you should consider that the best defense is a good offense. Or maybe you can just blow past your opponent with a fast strategy before their Masq/Possession can actually hurt you much.

I didn't include non-attack, indiscriminate discarders, such as Tribute, even though they can occasionally be used as a weak attack - for example, force the opponent to reshuffle when they're about to play Counting House or Hermit. But very few things protect against that specifically, though some cards do help you get more stuff into your discard pile - sifters, Chancellor, seeker cards like Venture.

In the "Proactive strategies" section, I obviously couldn't include every separate strategy (including a separate strategy for each combo?!). I tried to include a few very general strategies that have can proactively protect against a broad range of attacks.

[qdread]

Well, Watchtower should be noted to give protection from handsize reducing attacks, even potentially improving your hand quality.

[Awaclus]

Well, Watchtower should be noted to give protection from handsize reducing attacks, even potentially improving your hand quality.

And it is.

[werothegreat]

Horse Traders *does* protect from Minion, because you now only have four cards in hand.

[faust]

Well, Watchtower should be noted to give protection from handsize reducing attacks, even potentially improving your hand quality.

This falls under "indirect defenses" though, where Draw-to-X cards are listed. Watchtower's reaction doesn't protect.

[faust]

Horse Traders *does* protect from Minion, because you now only have four cards in hand.

Same with Beggar.

[werothegreat]

Horse Traders *does* protect from Minion, because you now only have four cards in hand.

Same with Beggar.

They also both fully protect against Pillage and Taxman.

[Bench of Bishops]

Horse Traders *does* protect from Minion, because you now only have four cards in hand.

Same with Beggar.

They also both fully protect against Pillage and Taxman.

werothegreat, thanks, I've corrected Horse Traders' reaction re: Minion. I'm updating the post now. Also, I would consider both Pillage and Taxman to be in the "Remove specific card or card type" category of handsize attacks. Horse Traders is listed as protecting against that kind of attack. How does Beggar's reaction protect against that kind of attack? It doesn't help you increase your handsize in response to that sort of attack, does it?

Or if you're referring to Beggar's non-reaction ability, maybe I should create another row in the Indirect defenses - something like in-hand gainers. Beggar helps add some cards and money; Trader helps trash in-hand-gained cards (such as via Torturer and Masquerade) and gain Silver instead; etc.

faust, I don't think Beggar protects against Minion's attack, at least as I'm using the word "protect". Minion's attack does two things - discards and reduces your hand size. I'm not considering indiscriminate discarding as an attack, because it's as likely to help you as hurt you (unless it's used strategically as I note at the bottom of my post). Likewise with indiscriminate discarding by Sea Hag, Tribute, etc. So the harm from Minion's attack comes from the handsize reduction, and Beggar doesn't help with that. So as I note, Beggar doesn't protect (you still end up with 4 cards in hand), but it does help if you want to make sure one of those 4 cards is a Silver. Unless I misunderstand your point, or how Beggar is played? I've never played with Beggar.

[werothegreat]

You play Pillage.  I discard Beggar.  You no longer get to look at my hand.  You would most likely have made me discard something better than a crappy Beggar.

You play Taxman.  I discard Beggar.  I am no longer affected by your Attack in any way, and I'd most like rather have the Treasure I would have had to discard than a crappy Beggar.

[silverspawn]

I think you don't even need the comparison of beggar vs the card you would have lost instead (which could be a copper, after all), because you don't "lose" beggar, you trade it for 2 silvers, similar of how you discard market square for a gold. that's usually a good trade.

[Bench of Bishops]

You play Pillage.  I discard Beggar.  You no longer get to look at my hand.  You would most likely have made me discard something better than a crappy Beggar.

You play Taxman.  I discard Beggar.  I am no longer affected by your Attack in any way, and I'd most like rather have the Treasure I would have had to discard than a crappy Beggar.

*slaps forehead* I was forgetting you could set aside a card, or choose to discard via a reaction, and dodge some attacks. I'll update the post.

[Bench of Bishops]

You play Pillage.  I discard Beggar.  You no longer get to look at my hand.  You would most likely have made me discard something better than a crappy Beggar.

You play Taxman.  I discard Beggar.  I am no longer affected by your Attack in any way, and I'd most like rather have the Treasure I would have had to discard than a crappy Beggar.

*slaps forehead* I was forgetting you could set aside a card, or choose to discard via a reaction, and dodge some attacks. I'll update the post.

Ok, I modified the table to update Beggar's and Horse Trader's ability to voluntarily discard or set aside a card to dodge part or all of a discard attack.

I left Beggar as "Some protection" for Minion's attack. Yes, if you discard Beggar via Beggar's reaction, you avoid discarding your entire hand and drawing a new one. But you're still left with a 4-card hand, which could still weaken you - for example if you were planning to use Cellar to discard Beggar, or if you actually wanted to use Beggar's copper-gaining ability. It offers some protection, but not the same level of protection as Moat or Lighthouse.

[GeoLib]

You play Pillage.  I discard Beggar.  You no longer get to look at my hand.  You would most likely have made me discard something better than a crappy Beggar.

You play Taxman.  I discard Beggar.  I am no longer affected by your Attack in any way, and I'd most like rather have the Treasure I would have had to discard than a crappy Beggar.

*slaps forehead* I was forgetting you could set aside a card, or choose to discard via a reaction, and dodge some attacks. I'll update the post.

Ok, I modified the table to update Beggar's and Horse Trader's ability to voluntarily discard or set aside a card to dodge part or all of a discard attack.

I left Beggar as "Some protection" for Minion's attack. Yes, if you discard Beggar via Beggar's reaction, you avoid discarding your entire hand and drawing a new one. But you're still left with a 4-card hand, which could still weaken you - for example if you were planning to use Cellar to discard Beggar, or if you actually wanted to use Beggar's copper-gaining ability. It offers some protection, but not the same level of protection as Moat or Lighthouse.

Especially since you have to basically double-seahag yourself to use it

[Ozle]

[Watno]

Somehow I expected Ozle to respond with "Is it moat?"

[Asper]

I kind of missed Philosopher's Stone on this list, as it becomes stronger when you are junked and discard attacks may push it by one if you are lucky (actually reaching the next 5-step by discarding 2 cards to Militia isn't as unlikely).

Or does that count as a slog strategy like i assume Gardens would?

[Awaclus]

I kind of missed Philosopher's Stone on this list, as it becomes stronger when you are junked and discard attacks may push it by one if you are lucky (actually reaching the next 5-step by discarding 2 cards to Militia isn't as unlikely).

Or does that count as a slog strategy like i assume Gardens would?

It counts as a trap strategy.

[Asper]

I kind of missed Philosopher's Stone on this list, as it becomes stronger when you are junked and discard attacks may push it by one if you are lucky (actually reaching the next 5-step by discarding 2 cards to Militia isn't as unlikely).

Or does that count as a slog strategy like i assume Gardens would?

It counts as a trap strategy.

Believe that, if you wish.

Not too long ago i bought Watchtower as one of my opening buys, got a few Squires and trashed them for Familiars, topdecking them. My opponent went for Philosopher's Stone and his deck was full of Curses in a flash. I said "We should probably stop this, here." Then he played his Philosopher's Stones, reached 12$, bought a Colony, and suddenly we were equal on points while he had some crazy strong Treasures and most i had was useless cantrips. He won, of course.

[Awaclus]

I kind of missed Philosopher's Stone on this list, as it becomes stronger when you are junked and discard attacks may push it by one if you are lucky (actually reaching the next 5-step by discarding 2 cards to Militia isn't as unlikely).

Or does that count as a slog strategy like i assume Gardens would?

It counts as a trap strategy.

Believe that, if you wish.

Not too long ago i bought Watchtower as one of my opening buys, got a few Squires and trashed them for Familiars, topdecking them. My opponent went for Philosopher's Stone and his deck was full of Curses in a flash. I said "We should probably stop this, here." Then he played his Philosopher's Stones, reached 12$, bought a Colony, and suddenly we were equal on points while he had some crazy strong Treasures and most i had was useless cantrips. He won, of course.

Well, why didn't you buy cards other than useless cantrips?

[Ozle]

Can someone remind me why we are attacking Tables again?
Whats he done?
(apart from the obvious...)

[Asper]

I kind of missed Philosopher's Stone on this list, as it becomes stronger when you are junked and discard attacks may push it by one if you are lucky (actually reaching the next 5-step by discarding 2 cards to Militia isn't as unlikely).

Or does that count as a slog strategy like i assume Gardens would?

It counts as a trap strategy.

Believe that, if you wish.

Not too long ago i bought Watchtower as one of my opening buys, got a few Squires and trashed them for Familiars, topdecking them. My opponent went for Philosopher's Stone and his deck was full of Curses in a flash. I said "We should probably stop this, here." Then he played his Philosopher's Stones, reached 12$, bought a Colony, and suddenly we were equal on points while he had some crazy strong Treasures and most i had was useless cantrips. He won, of course.

Well, why didn't you buy cards other than useless cantrips?

I didn't buy those Familiars, i bought and trashed Squires. Also i don't think it were more than three of them, either. And i never said that my deck was all useless cantrips. Just most of my aquired cards besides Watchtower were. He bought that Colony really early.

I'm not saying "OMG Philosopher's Stone is so awesome, buy it always, especially if there are attacks on the board!!11"
I'm saying "If you fear that there will be a lot of junking and/or discard attacks, with most of those coming from other players than you (newsflash: not all games are 2 player), you should consider that PS strategies work relatively unaffected of those."

[liopoil]

Well, you did win, right?

[Aidan Millow]

Video

This should actually be added to the table. Junking attacks of your own mitigate the effect of junking attacks (especially if you outpace them).

[Asper]

Well, you did win, right?

As i wrote before, no i didn't. With the first Colony he had negated the VP difference caused by the curses. My Familiars didn't do anything to harm him, anymore, and he always had 2$ more per PS. I guess a better player than me would have won, and maybe he was lucky. Maybe the fact that it was a Colony game favoured PS, too. Still it surprised me how something i thought of as a sure win could go so wrong.

[dondon151]

The problem that I have with using PStone as a counter to junking attacks is that it's not reliable to consistently line up $3P to buy your PStones. Because your shuffles take forever, even missing a single PStone buy can mean that you're screwed.

[TheOthin]

Having 10 Curses and a Colony means being neutral on points and high-value PSs, but it also means having 11 dead cards clogging up your deck... sure it's possible to win from there but it doesn't sound like a good situation.

[DG]

Philosopher's stone works well in multiplayer junking games where it is a properly balanced card. It is far easier in two player games to clean up a deck and/or win by giving your opponent more junk.

[Asper]

It's not like i really can argue in favour of PS. I can not guarantee i just messed up or that he got lucky. I can just say what happened. The only thing i would assume is that a strategy resolving around few high-value treasures might be differently/less affected by junk than an engine where you have to bring several pieces together.

Anyhow, i am afraid this discussion is derailing the thread. I believe that PS is a card that is less affected by certain types of attack, and i think i gave some good reasons for it. I never implied that PS was always, or even often, a reasonable strategy to go for. Moat isn't either, but nobody would doubt it defends against attacks. This is what this thread is about, and this is why i missed PS on the list.

[jomini]

An additional mitigation strategy to trashers is the use of on-trash cards. For instance, Fortress can make cans like Knights and Swindler actively bad as they increase the odds that you hit your engine and decrease the odds that they do real damage. Likewise, Swindler becomes a lot less useful when Squires can become Rabble, Goons, or Pools. Feodum can be insanely good against Knights/Rogue/Sab with a steady supply of silvers and increased points from any other Feoda. Cultist, Hunting grounds, and Catacombs are less useful, but trashing attacks definitely make the relatively stronger compared to competitive card (e.g. Witch vs Cultist tilts further towards Cultist when the opponent opens Swindler, Hunting grounds vs Rabble goes a bit towards the former when you have Knights trashing your engine). Secret chamber/Fortress can turn Rogue in +2 coin for you and +1 live card for me (and ensuring I have a village) - a trade usually worth it - and they spent a $5 or opening buy on giving it to me; other options that let you control your top deck between turns can also get really strong (e.g. Gship can be undone).



A second strategy that mitigates virtually all deck junkers and muckers (and even some trashers and discarders) are top deck control setups. Take the simplest - Scavenger/Stash. You can go for a number of different attacks - Fortune teller, Witch, Swindler, etc. and you will be mostly immune - nabbing a province pretty much every turn after you get Scav x2, Stash x3. Kc/Scheme/X decks can overcome an awful lot - drawing a net +1 card, having extra +action, and being able to keep a draw card on top can let you shrug off discards and even a lot of curses. Inn and Herald can both let you set up some serious megaturns even when you have a LOT of junk in deck; just gain an Inn with a full discard and you might be able to ignore 10 curses  and "draw deck" for a huge megaturn. Herbalist can also make a decent play here allowing you to abuse treasures (like Hoard, Pstone, Venture, and Plat) by ensuring that they spend a lot of time on deck top where you can use them.

Relatedly, cards like Hermit/Madman and Nv can allow you to engineer a complete deck draw regardless of how much crap you have in whatever horrid order. For instance, Iw/Nv/X can be surprisingly strong in 3er where the other guys are tossing curses like candy - just gain a card, mat it, and maybe gain one more card and you are good to go. In 4er I had a hilarious match where I bought out the Nv pile, emptied my deck except for an Armory and then just stashed Silvers and support cards (like Woodcutters and Pearl divers) onto the mat while my opponents tossed around ruins and Rogued each other. While far less useful or common, other options for megaturn draw with a junked, poorly ordered deck include Countinghouse (and things like Cellar or Storeroom) and the odd Apprentice/Xroads setup.

[Bench of Bishops]

@jomini and @asper, I appreciate your points, especially since you're pointing out cards and possibilities from expansions I haven't yet played with.

I'm trying to balance the table between not being too abstract and not being too specific. I've tried to avoid being too abstract by breaking out each specific attack and defense type. I've tried to avoid being too specific by not focusing on specific cards or card combos unless they really have a unique dynamic. (Except for the reaction cards, where the whole point was to see how each one individually helped against attacks.)

So for Pstone and some of your points, jomini, can you help me figure out which categories those belong in, or if they maybe belong in categories of their own? For example, if Pstone belongs in the table, maybe it needs its own category: Focus on fewer high-value cards (Pstone, Plat, etc.) rather than on lots of cheaper cards (which might make sense when responding to repeated Sab/Rogue/Knight attacks).

I like the mention of cards with on-trash benefits; I'll add that as its own category. I do already have top deck control as a category, and I avoided listing ALL the cards that fall into that category (of which there are quite a few).

For huge deck-draw like Madman, or reliability from KC/KC/Scheme/Scheme/X, is that really something that gets stronger against attacks, or is it just good in general? If the latter, I'm not sure it quite qualifies as a defense. Or, it falls into the category of "the best defense is a good offense", i.e., just kick ass and you'll be fine against some attacks because you're kicking so much ass anyway. I'm not listing that currently as a strategy, but maybe I should, just to remind people that sometimes it doesn't pay to go after a specific defensive card or strategy; just shrug off the attacks and focus on making yourself an awesome deck.

But I will add a new category for "Sequester your cards" to keep them protected, and/or to take them out of your way, and I'll include cards like Island, NV, etc. in that category. Of course, those cards function very differently but for the sake of not having too much detail I think I'll include it in one category. What do you think?

[jomini]

Say we have 3 basic decks on a board: draw deck (e.g. Madman), BM-Attack, and X. It is entirely possibly to set up a scenario where BM-attack > X > Madman > BM-attack. Without the attack, you'd skip on a Madman deck (e.g. Coppersmith/Madman/+buy/coppers) against a decent engine setup (say Library/Spice merchant/Festival), but the engine can be utterly destroyed by junkers (e.g. Mountebank) and top deck muckers (E.g. mass Rabble). It takes relatively little junking/top deck mucking to lower the odds of connecting +buy and +cards so that engines falter (e.g. an Engine with 1/4 cards as +action and 1/4 cards as +3 cards needs just 5 or so curses to have terrible of odds of fully firing); one additional Madman, on the other hand, can draw another 40 cards (the bigger issue is waiting a turn or two longer until you hit a hand with 2 Madmen in it). Similarly, Counting house is a terrible play against a lot of strats, but if your deck is getting massively bloated (say with lots of copper/estates from Amb in 4er), it becomes a LOT more powerful if you can do something like Village -> Chouse -> Cellar to draw out all your megaturn cards (say Squires and Bridges).

Megadraw is often very, very slow to setup, but if you've been nuking each other's decks, you gain the time needed and you often don't care about deck top ordering. On the flip side, megadraw can be really, really weak against trashing attacks. For instance, if you are going for Madmen, Swindler is truly evil. Both Hermit -> Silver (or worse) and Madman -> Curse (copper) depletes the Madmen you can gain (barring trash diving), you can set up your entire deck & lose ... as you have no way to get enough Madmen once you've been trashed hard enough. Other trashing, like Knights or Sab, also can hurt a lot. When you need every action card, any time an action card goes into the trash you lose at least half a turn. Likewise, discarding attacks can slow you down.

Or take something like using Inn to setup a big Bridge turn. It takes a lot of turns to get all the Bridges you will need and longer yet to get them all in the discard at the right time. However, if you have been Mountebanking, you likely will have a lot of $4 & $5 hands before a shuffle and the other guy cannot quickly nab 5 provinces.


So, yes I'd say that megadraw options like Madmen, Nv, and maybe some other odd ducks (like Chouse, Apprentice, Xroads) are strategies that are defensive. They get relatively stronger when decks are filled with crud.

Kc/Scheme/X likewise suffers from the curse of a slow burn. Getting the big setup - two Kc, two Sch, and some other power card, then lining them all up takes time. While I'm futzing around buying all of that you might just do something like quickly grab 4 Provinces and then start piling the Duchies. Now X has to be something really good to not be the attack itself, but they you don't care at all about trashing (your 5 power cards are always in hand), junking (your 5 power cards ensure you have no really bad hands), and only a bit about top deck mucking. On the other hand, discard attacks (particularly Minion) are brutal. Something truly horrid (like Kc/Kc/Sch/Sch/B-crat) can become insanely strong if you have the time to build out to it (e.g. 4er with Amb). Certainly the strengths of this type of deck differ greatly from cards that just let you discard junk of deck top (like Cartographer). Something simple like Procession/Armory/Useful $5 does not care if you are getting cursed - it will keep giving you a new Prssn/ replaced Arm on top and a nice shiny new $5. Discarding actually hurts more (because the odds of you getting a Silver or something useful out of 2-3 other cards is much higher than out of 1) than junking here.

Because these setups can shrug off the attacks and competing strategies often can't that makes them more powerful than they be without the attacks on the board. Certainly the top deck control category is overly broad.