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• Young Witch
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##### -1 action card
« on: November 21, 2014, 04:16:06 pm »
+2

Just an idea I thought of. How do you think a card would work if it was something like

- 1 action
+ 4 cards
3\$

I came up with that card really fast so I havn't thought of balance at all but do you think it would be interesting if there were really strong action cards but they use 2 actions when you play it?

Also I think this card would let you play it if you have only 1 action available and would act as a terminal there?

It probably would be anti fun for people as most times its hard to build up that many extra actions but was interested in what you guys thought
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#### sudgy

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2014, 04:32:15 pm »
+2

This card as is is amazing for Big Money.  I think a better way to do it would be

Action \$3
+2 Cards
You may spend an action.  If you do, +2 Cards.

This makes it not totally useless without the action, but still makes you need that action.
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#### eHalcyon

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2014, 04:40:44 pm »
+4

This card as is is amazing for Big Money.  I think a better way to do it would be

Action \$3
+2 Cards
You may spend an action.  If you do, +2 Cards.

This makes it not totally useless without the action, but still makes you need that action.

And if you do that, it's just way more interesting to use LF's Activation concept.
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#### LastFootnote

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2014, 04:46:36 pm »
0

This card as is is amazing for Big Money.  I think a better way to do it would be

Action \$3
+2 Cards
You may spend an action.  If you do, +2 Cards.

This makes it not totally useless without the action, but still makes you need that action.

And if you do that, it's just way more interesting to use LF's Activation concept.

You are too kind. However, I was thinking "You may spend an Action. If you do, play this again." It would be similar to Convoy, but different. You could only activate it with villages on the board, but you could usually use it more often in games with villages.
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#### Asper

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2014, 05:36:16 pm »
+10

This card as is is amazing for Big Money.  I think a better way to do it would be

Action \$3
+2 Cards
You may spend an action.  If you do, +2 Cards.

This makes it not totally useless without the action, but still makes you need that action.

And if you do that, it's just way more interesting to use LF's Activation concept.

You are too kind. However, I was thinking "You may spend an Action. If you do, play this again." It would be similar to Convoy, but different. You could only activate it with villages on the board, but you could usually use it more often in games with villages.

+2 Cards

I know it's not exactly the same, but it avoids the need of a new concept.
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#### LastFootnote

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2014, 06:02:23 pm »
0

I was thinking "You may spend an Action. If you do, play this again." It would be similar to Convoy, but different. You could only activate it with villages on the board, but you could usually use it more often in games with villages.

+2 Cards

I know it's not exactly the same, but it avoids the need of a new concept.

Yes, that is even better.
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• Young Witch
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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2014, 06:32:28 pm »
0

I was thinking "You may spend an Action. If you do, play this again." It would be similar to Convoy, but different. You could only activate it with villages on the board, but you could usually use it more often in games with villages.

+2 Cards

I know it's not exactly the same, but it avoids the need of a new concept.

Yes, that is even better.

This is a card That I kinda want to see now. Sounds interesting.
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#### Galzria

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2014, 08:09:31 pm »
0

Would a TR or KC lose track of it once it's returned to hand?
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#### enfynet

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2014, 08:28:29 pm »
0

Would a TR or KC lose track of it once it's returned to hand?
I would say no, as it gives +2 Cards regardless. The return to hand part will only happen once. (See: Feast)

Edit: Procession would though, and fail to trash it, right?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 08:32:01 pm by enfynet »
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#### LastFootnote

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2014, 12:01:10 am »
0

Would a TR or KC lose track of it once it's returned to hand?
I would say no, as it gives +2 Cards regardless. The return to hand part will only happen once. (See: Feast)

Edit: Procession would though, and fail to trash it, right?

Yes.
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#### Asper

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2014, 04:46:07 am »
0

Would a TR or KC lose track of it once it's returned to hand?

You can also Throne Room Feast. So they would lose track like Procession does, but that doesn't really matter.
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#### pacovf

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2014, 11:19:33 am »
+2

Would a TR or KC lose track of it once it's returned to hand?
I would say no, as it gives +2 Cards regardless. The return to hand part will only happen once. (See: Feast)

Edit: Procession would though, and fail to trash it, right?

Yes.

To be slightly more precise, TR, KC and Procession "load" the info in the card when you play it for the first time, so it doesn't matter what happens with the card once you start playing it for the first time, you will still play it two/three times, because the effect is already set up.

However, they assume that the card is in play, so should they try to move the card, if the card isn't in play anymore when they try to move it, they would fail to do so. Ergo, all of TR, KC and Procession lose track of this card after the first play, but it only matters in the latter case, because it is the only one that actually tries to move it.

Similarly (I am not 100% on this second thing, though), this card fails to return itself to your hand after the first time, because it isn't where it thinks it is (in play) when it tries to return to your hand. Of course, it doesn't matter, because it is already in your hand. But it would matter if, say, an effect trashed it between the moment you put it in play and the moment it tries to return to your hand.

PS: Of course, such an effect doesn't exist in Dominion right now, but if, say, there was a reaction card with something like "when a card leaves your play area, you may discard this. If you do, put that card on top of your deck.", then you could use it to put this card on top of your deck after the first play, and then the second play of the card would fail to put itself in your hand.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 11:31:15 am by pacovf »
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#### Kirian

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2014, 12:22:54 pm »
0

I was thinking "You may spend an Action. If you do, play this again." It would be similar to Convoy, but different. You could only activate it with villages on the board, but you could usually use it more often in games with villages.

+2 Cards

I know it's not exactly the same, but it avoids the need of a new concept.

Yes, that is even better.

It's an elegant solution, but I think there are some kingdoms where this card is just "draw the rest of your deck."
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#### pacovf

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2014, 12:47:42 pm »
+3

I was thinking "You may spend an Action. If you do, play this again." It would be similar to Convoy, but different. You could only activate it with villages on the board, but you could usually use it more often in games with villages.

+2 Cards

I know it's not exactly the same, but it avoids the need of a new concept.

Yes, that is even better.

It's an elegant solution, but I think there are some kingdoms where this card is just "draw the rest of your deck."

It's basically a smithy that is guaranteed to draw a smithy (even if you don't have any left in your deck). 5\$ seems like a reasonable starting price for a smithy-with-a-bonus. It's crazy with any way to topdeck it for your next turn (scheme is the obvious, but having two of them and a mandarin/courtyard also works), but otherwise I would guess it's fine?
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#### eHalcyon

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2014, 01:56:42 pm »
0

I was thinking "You may spend an Action. If you do, play this again." It would be similar to Convoy, but different. You could only activate it with villages on the board, but you could usually use it more often in games with villages.

+2 Cards

I know it's not exactly the same, but it avoids the need of a new concept.

Yes, that is even better.

It's an elegant solution, but I think there are some kingdoms where this card is just "draw the rest of your deck."

It's basically a smithy that is guaranteed to draw a smithy (even if you don't have any left in your deck). 5\$ seems like a reasonable starting price for a smithy-with-a-bonus. It's crazy with any way to topdeck it for your next turn (scheme is the obvious, but having two of them and a mandarin/courtyard also works), but otherwise I would guess it's fine?

It's a Moat, not a Smithy.
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#### silverspawn

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2014, 02:04:52 pm »
+4

I was thinking "You may spend an Action. If you do, play this again." It would be similar to Convoy, but different. You could only activate it with villages on the board, but you could usually use it more often in games with villages.

+2 Cards

I know it's not exactly the same, but it avoids the need of a new concept.

Yes, that is even better.

It's an elegant solution, but I think there are some kingdoms where this card is just "draw the rest of your deck."

It's basically a smithy that is guaranteed to draw a smithy (even if you don't have any left in your deck). 5\$ seems like a reasonable starting price for a smithy-with-a-bonus. It's crazy with any way to topdeck it for your next turn (scheme is the obvious, but having two of them and a mandarin/courtyard also works), but otherwise I would guess it's fine?

It's a Moat, not a Smithy.

It's like a smithy that draws a smithy, because it returns itself to your hand, which is equal to drawing a third card that is a smithy.
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#### market squire

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2014, 04:15:56 pm »
0

Night Watchman (Action) \$3
+2 Cards
If this is the first card you play this turn: +1 Action.
Otherwise, put this on top of your deck.

But "Return this to your hand.™" is even neater, maybe going into another direction.

The "spend an action" thing could also be used for other effects that don't equal playing a card.
Not really thought through, but:

Actionbuild (Action) \$2
Trash a card from your hand.
Spend any number of Actions, this number is X.
Gain a card costing up to \$X more than the trashed card.

Actionscout (Action) \$3
+1 Card
+1 Action
Spend any number of Actions.
For each Action spent, reveal 2 cards from top of your deck.
Put one of all revealed cards into your hand.
Put the rest back in any order.

Actionwitch (Action-Attack) \$3
+2 Cards
You may spend an Action.
If you do, each other player gains a curse.
If you don't, trash this.
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#### Asper

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2014, 04:47:48 pm »
+3

Quote from: Kirian link=topic=12098.msg441799#msg441799 date=14at least at the start of the 6676974
I was thinking "You may spend an Action. If you do, play this again." It would be similar to Convoy, but different. You could only activate it with villages on the board, but you could usually use it more often in games with villages.

+2 Cards

I know it's not exactly the same, but it avoids the need of a new concept.

Yes, that is even better.

It's an elegant solution, but I think there are some kingdoms where this card is just "draw the rest of your deck."

It's basically a smithy that is guaranteed to draw a smithy (even if you don't have any left in your deck). 5\$ seems like a reasonable starting price for a smithy-with-a-bonus. It's crazy with any way to topdeck it for your next turn (scheme is the obvious, but having two of them and a mandarin/courtyard also works), but otherwise I would guess it's fine?

I'm not sure whether i'd call a Smithy that always draws a terminal "Smithy with a bonus". Whenever you are short on actions, this card is Moat. The more terminals (including this card itself) you have, the weaker the bonus of the card gets. This goes especially for the card itself - any copy after the first you draw during your turn is essentially a wasted draw. No doubt it can get strong with many actions, but you have to work for that by making sure you can connect them - without buying overly many.

I'd actually try it at 3\$. Maybe it's 4\$, which i'm not convinced of, but it certainly isn't a 5\$.

Edit: Thinking about it, 3\$ really seems the right price to me. You don't want to double-open with this, anyway. It needs support. It's not strictly better than any 3\$. And i'm pretty sure it's power level is lower than you think. What costing it at 4\$ or more does, though, is preventing any opening with most Village variants. I think that would be a shame.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 05:06:24 pm by Asper »
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#### pacovf

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2014, 05:08:32 pm »
0

Let's call the card River, just so that it has a name. It is definitely a smithy variant, not a moat variant, as it is a terminal card that increases your handsize by two, not one. If you are not cashing on the fact that it goes back to your hand, it is indeed a moat, but then again you are not using the main strength of the card...

You are absolutely right that River is not a smithy-with-a-bonus the way margrave or journeyman are. But in a draw-your-deck-engine, River does the job Smithy does, only better, for two different reasons:
-once you have it in your hand, it is more reliable than smithy, since now you only need to draw your villages to keep going;
-in the best of cases, you only ever need to buy one, which means you can spend your buys elsewhere.

The only thing you need to draw your deck with River is one or two Rivers, a way to get a River to hand (topdeck, sifters, etc.), and villages. Compare to other smithy variants, where you need roughly as many smithies as villages (and nowadays most smithies cost \$5, not \$4!), and you need to keep colliding both as you draw your deck.

Nothing beats playtesting, maybe it works at \$4, but back-of-napkin considerations make me think that this is a smithy-with-a-bonus for engines, so \$5.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 05:31:31 pm by pacovf »
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#### qmech

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2014, 05:12:28 pm »
+2

The only thing you need to draw your deck with River is one or two Rivers, a way to get a River to hand (topdeck, sifters, etc.), and villages. Compare to other smithy variants, where you need roughly as many smithies as villages (and nowadays most smithies cost \$5, not \$4!), and you need to keep colliding both as you draw your deck.

I think the problem of ensuring that you get one in your starting hand is quite serious.  You don't want to end up needing almost as many as you would Smithies as the extra copies end up dead.
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• Young Witch
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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2014, 05:17:59 pm »
+4

you arn't even able to scheme river are you. So it seems like its a card that you would want to buy a couple so that you ensure it is in your hand. But at the same time once one is in your hand all others are dead cards. It would be hard to balance how many to buy in a deck.
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#### Asper

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2014, 05:20:56 pm »
0

Let's call the card River, just so that it has a name. It is definitely a smithy variant, not a moat variant, as it is a terminal card that increases your handsize by two, not one. If you are not cashing on the fact that it goes back to your hand, it is indeed a moat, but then again you are not using the main strength of the card...

You are absolutely right that River is not a smithy-with-a-bonus the way margrave or journeyman are. But in a draw-your-deck-engine, River does the job Smithy does, only better, for two different reasons:
-once you have it in your hand, it is more reliable than smithy, since now you only need to draw your villages to keep going;
-in the best of cases, you only ever need to buy one, which means you can spend your buys elsewhere.

The only thing you need to draw your deck with River is one or two Rivers, a way to get a River to hand (topdeck, sifters, etc.), and villages. Compare to other smithy variants, where you need roughly as many smithies as villages (and nowadays most smithies cost \$5, not \$4!), and you need to keep colliding both as you draw your deck.

Nothing beats playtesting, maybe it works at \$4, but back-of-napking considerations make me think that this is a smithy-with-a-bonus for engines, so \$5.

I'm too in favour of playtests for this one, as just disagreeing won't persuade you or me. Anyhow, i feel River is a nice name, though it sounds a bit like a Victory card. I was thinking of something Village related, like Villager or Major. Also Hydrad (edit: and qmech) raise a good point with how you need to balance "too many" and "too few".
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 05:23:05 pm by Asper »
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#### AJD

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2014, 05:59:27 pm »
+1

Nothing beats playtesting, maybe it works at \$4, but back-of-napkin considerations make me think that this is a smithy-with-a-bonus for engines, so \$5.

It's worth noting that Conspirator is a mini–Grand Market for engines and still costs \$4.
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#### pacovf

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2014, 06:35:45 pm »
+2

Note that I don't particularly care for the card costing \$5. It's just that it looks like the card is either moat or super smithy, and likely you will only buy it in the second case, so you should price it according to that fact (unless the second case is a theoretical ideal which you can only approach). This is the Counting House pricing problem, really.
qmech and Hydrad raise a good point about extra copies of the card being dead and it being hard to judge how many you need, but I am not sure if that's a comment on the power level or the skill level of the card.

As for cards that guarantee that you get a copy of the card on your next hand, there are:
-courtyard
-haven
-mandarin
-graverobber
-count

...Scavenger sorta works if you play around it.

Then, if you've already drawn your whole deck (which should happen for the first time soonish if you have enough villages), you can use targeted discard to put two (resp. one) rivers in your discard, then draw one card (resp. reveal cards) from your deck, and you'll draw a river next turn. Targeted discards are:
-secret chamber
-hamlet
-young witch
-oasis (only works together with reveal)
-storeroom
-vault (probably overkill)

And then there's the sifters:
-cellar
-warehouse
-sage
-wandering mistrel
-inn (probably overkill)

storeroom doesn't really work, you need the actions for river.

I might be forgetting some, but I guess the list is not that long anyway, 17 cards out of 206. Assuming only 15 cards actually work with River, that's roughly a 1/2 chance that one of them will be in a kingdom that contains River. Is that good enough? Meh, you also need a village...

Anyhow, i feel River is a nice name, though it sounds a bit like a Victory card. I was thinking of something Village related, like Villager or Major.

I don't think there's a standard name for terminal draw (unlike the village or remodel family), so anything works. They're mostly stuff that produces resources, except when they aren't . River seemed nice as a thing that keeps coming, but whatevs. Another idea I had was courier, or errand boy, or someone like that, who is always available.

You get to choose the name, since you came up with the "return to hand" idea. What will it be?

Nothing beats playtesting, maybe it works at \$4, but back-of-napkin considerations make me think that this is a smithy-with-a-bonus for engines, so \$5.

It's worth noting that Conspirator is a mini–Grand Market for engines and still costs \$4.

Ha, fair enough. However, I would argue that the comparison is not perfect, because the "for engines" part doesn't mean the same in each case, but I get your point.
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#### eHalcyon

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##### Re: -1 action card
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2014, 06:48:23 pm »
0

It's like a smithy that draws a smithy, because it returns itself to your hand, which is equal to drawing a third card that is a smithy.

Ah, OK.  Got it.
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