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Author Topic: silverspawn's card list  (Read 62913 times)

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theblankman

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #150 on: October 27, 2014, 10:56:31 pm »
0

I am glad Minions finally made the list - it is easily my least favorite card in the game.  First, it is very swingy - the attack can range anywhere from devastating to quite helpful.  Second, as stated, a few Minions is not very strong.  Yet, if the opponent goes for it you are pretty much forced to do so as well, as getting them all is extremely strong.  So most games turn into mirrors with the winner often decided by who has better luck hitting good hands with the attacks and stacking Minions in one hand (as just 1 in a hand is weak).  Third, and most importantly, it is painful to me to see my good hands discarded and have zero control over it.  Then when I get a bad hand and actually want it discarded, inevitably the opponent has no Minions for once.
I agree with all these bad things about the Minion attack and the need to counter-buy if the opponent goes for it.  What's sad is that I love everything else about the card.  It's a unique drawing effect that's not always good, but in the right kingdom with the right play, can be as good as +4 cards non-terminal.  And the money option gives it a nice self-synergy and makes it okay when you draw several at once.  You have to work to get the most out of it, and I love cards like that.  If the attack wasn't so damn swingy, it would be among my favorite cards, no question.  I'd love it if it just said to discard down to 4 or even 3 (victim chooses what to keep).  It would even be pretty good if the attack were simply removed.  Cards like Minion make me wish it were feasible to fork the online game and make retroactive changes, but I doubt DXV, RGG or MF have any desire or reason to do something like that.
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cactus

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #151 on: October 28, 2014, 05:06:26 am »
+1

Possible buff for Dominion 2nd Ed Scout - make it a green card - so basically the scout exactly as is but green and worth 1VP.

Merudo

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #152 on: October 28, 2014, 08:32:58 am »
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Possible buff for Dominion 2nd Ed Scout - make it a green card - so basically the scout exactly as is but green and worth 1VP.
Heck make it 0VP like one of the Shelter, so that it combo somewhat with itself.
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ehunt

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #153 on: October 28, 2014, 09:09:11 am »
+2

on bsw a long time ago, when it was just Base + a few cards from Intrigue + a few cards from Seaside, Minion was quite a bother -- as a function of the cards they had selected, it was nearly almost the dominant strategy, and because it self-combos, a lot of games turned into Minion races. But nowadays I find it great.
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silverspawn

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #154 on: October 28, 2014, 09:14:29 am »
+2

Quote
I tend to think the interaction thing is very important, and I don't usually buy the importance of other "high skill" behavior like deck tracking or always play engine. It's hard to measure any of this stuff. In 2p, the big thing is that you want to maximize your chances of ending the game with more points than your opponent, not try to maximize your points per turn or (minimize) turns to 4-5 Provinces or whatever. This automatically links your choices to what your opponent is doing, and it's usually correct to sacrifice some speed in favor of consistency if you have the lead. Lowering your odds of getting points quickly while increasing your chance of winning. Which I'm sure you're doing anyway since you're a good player. I think the percentages you can squeeze out of "interactive" thinking varies a lot depending on the kingdom/game, but it can be significant.

2p player Dominion is a game of chicken, not a race, except when it's a race.

It's weird, because if you asked me, "do you often consider these things," I'd have said yes, but if you asked me "do you often react to your opponent," I well said no. I think I just... didn't think of that as player interaction? But it is, really. so, consider that statement withdrawn. which doesn't mean that there aren't still plenty of players who overstate how important it is.

Quote
Third, and most importantly, it is painful to me to see my good hands discarded and have zero control over it.  Then when I get a bad hand and actually want it discarded, inevitably the opponent has no Minions for once.
Oh yea, I didn't even mention that. But, that's why everyone hates minions. Swindler kills good cards, minion kills good hands.

Quote
Chancellor is actually among my favorites.  Why? Because it is the only card in the main set that most makes you go "hun? why does this exist".  If this motivates you to look into it (like it did me), it teaches you there is a lot of depth to the game.

that's an interesting way of looking at it, usually this is considered a bad thing. Like, for newer players, they see chancellor, and they don't get it. I remember that we just didn't get it until I started playing online, and never bought it. But by now I know what it does, so that aspect doesn't influence its ranking here.

Quote
I do not understand this obsession with 3P.  Alchemist and Familiar are strong enough that they are rarely skippable even at 3P.  Sure, it is possible for multiple players to go Potion/Silver and one to get an edge by the other missing 3P on the next shuffle.  It is also possible to miss 5 when both players open Silver/Silver.  Do you complain that Laboratory and Witch cost 5?  Indeed, that is even more of an "unfair" price as you can open 5/2 and possibly can a TWO shuffle edge with Witch over Silver\Silver.    The generally accepted rule of thumb is that potion converts to 2-2.5 coins.  At 4-4.5, Alchemist and Familiar would be even more unskippable than they already are.  I'd rather the game not force all (good) players down the same path.
man, it's different. there are reasons why these cards cost 5$. you need to build a deck that hits 5$ early/a lot in order to buy them, and they need to cost 5$ so you can't open with them. And balance is not for powerlevel anyway, it's for fun level.

let's say Alchemist, Familiar, and Stone cost 2$P now. Does this make them considerably stronger? No. It makes them a little bit stronger, but not much, usually when Familiar is good, you just take the risk anyway. Does it change the way you build your deck in any way? Hell no. You just open potion/x anyway. and later, you usually expect to draw potion with 3$ regardless. Does it cause less frustration, because you almost always draw 2$ with your potion, but often not 3$? Yes. So, what's to talk about here?

And if you want to look at powerlevel, Scrying Pool and Apothecary cost 2P$. How does that make sense. If anything, scrying pool should cost 3P$ and Alchemist/Stone 2P$. You see, there is no excuse for the stupid extra coin on these cards.

Possible buff for Dominion 2nd Ed Scout - make it a green card - so basically the scout exactly as is but green and worth 1VP.
Heck make it 0VP like one of the Shelter, so that it combo somewhat with itself.

This isn't a bad idea in terms of how it works, but I think it'd feel a little bit awkward. Why would scout be a victory card?

I'm all for giving him +1$. That's the solution LF proposed in his "revisiting dominion cards" thread. I would have linked that in the card posts, but the images don't work anymore, and he didn't fix it as I asked him, so I didn't mention it.

silverspawn

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #155 on: October 28, 2014, 11:37:29 am »
+2

Yea... I don't have much to say about a lot of these. I guess that's to be expected with the middle part?

Chapter III: The Middleground (Part 2)

173. Smugglers
It's hard for me to explain why I don't like smugglers that much. Objectively, the only thing I could really say is that it's swingy.

I think what bothers me is the possession/masquerade-like aspect of it. I build an engine, my opponent is using it. I have good cards in hand, I have to pass them to my opponent. I buy a great card, my opponent smuggles it. Yea, that makes sense. Sometimes I just refuse to buy anything, if I know my opponent has smugglers in his hand. And then he gets nothing  >:(






172. Fortune Teller
I think I've already addressed this card when talking about Spy, and I don't have much more to add. Lately, I feel like it either helps your opponent/does almost nothing, or it skips over his opening buy, which is huge. Sometimes I feel silly for opening with it, because I just discard some coppers, but then there are the games where I pretty much win with it on turn 3.

The most interesting interactions with FT are cards that make your opponent draw. Minion+FT can reduce your opponent to an Outpost-hand, and CR/FT reduces the +1 card bonus to mostly nothing.






171. Mountebank
There is no agreement in this community about what is the strongest card in dominion, but Mountebank could be the one. If you asked me right now, I'd put him at #2. He is very, very strong. So strong that, unlike every other junker in the game, the presence of strong trashing is almost never a reason to skip him. And that aspect is even enhanced by the fact that trashing the curses stops the his penalty from triggering.

That pretty much leaves us with two kinds of games. The first one is one where you just don't care about the junk, and then you don't buy him, and that's that. And the second, more common one, where both players go for it. This decision is mostly trivial, so you're left with playing a Mountebank slog. And well, that's not the worst kind of game, but I think Mount suffers slightly from his ridiculous powerlevel. Weaker Junkers also cause slogs sometimes, but they also tend to bring more variety to the game. And, of course, the penalty makes him extra swingy.

I like the vanilla bonus over the traditional +cards though. Getting money is generally more satisfying in a slog, and you can't draw a second mount dead.






170. Venture
Venture is a peddler variant, and not a very exciting one. I mean, it's different, and I guess it's interesting to think about how exactly it is different, but the conclusion is kind of that it's just a more boring version. I'm sure most players try the deck with 8 ventures and no other treasures at some point, and then they realize that it's too slow. But, at least there's nothing to hate here.






169. Stash
Stash/Scavenger is one of the strongest two-card combos in the game, but aside from that, Stash is guilty of not doing a lot, similar to Royal Seal. It's just a minor bonus added to a silver, which is almost never enough to buy it over gold.






168. Fool's Gold
---------- silverspawn: turn 1 ----------
silverspawn - plays 4 Copper
silverspawn - buys Fool's Gold
silverspawn - gains Fool's Gold
silverspawn - draws Copper, Estate, Copper, Estate, Copper
 
---------- HvBoedefeld: turn 1 ----------
HvBoedefeld - plays 4 Copper
HvBoedefeld - buys Fool's Gold
HvBoedefeld - gains Fool's Gold
HvBoedefeld - draws Estate, Copper, Estate, Copper, Copper
 
---------- silverspawn: turn 2 ----------
silverspawn - plays 3 Copper
silverspawn - buys Fool's Gold
silverspawn - gains Fool's Gold
silverspawn - shuffles deck
silverspawn - draws Copper, Copper, Copper, Estate, Copper
 
---------- HvBoedefeld: turn 2 ----------
HvBoedefeld - plays 3 Copper
HvBoedefeld - buys Fool's Gold
HvBoedefeld - gains Fool's Gold
HvBoedefeld - shuffles deck
HvBoedefeld - draws Copper, Fool's Gold, Copper, Copper, Copper
 
---------- silverspawn: turn 3 ----------
silverspawn - plays 4 Copper
silverspawn - buys Fool's Gold
silverspawn - gains Fool's Gold
silverspawn - draws Copper, Copper, Fool's Gold, Estate, Fool's Gold
 
---------- HvBoedefeld: turn 3 ----------
HvBoedefeld - plays 4 Copper, 1 Fool's Gold
HvBoedefeld - buys Fool's Gold
HvBoedefeld - gains Fool's Gold
HvBoedefeld - draws Fool's Gold, Estate, Estate, Copper, Estate
 
---------- silverspawn: turn 4 ----------
silverspawn - plays 2 Copper, 2 Fool's Gold
silverspawn - buys Fool's Gold
silverspawn - gains Fool's Gold
silverspawn - draws Estate, Copper
silverspawn - shuffles deck
silverspawn - draws Copper, Estate, Copper
 
---------- HvBoedefeld: turn 4 ----------
HvBoedefeld - plays 1 Fool's Gold, 1 Copper
HvBoedefeld - buys Fool's Gold
HvBoedefeld - gains Fool's Gold
HvBoedefeld - draws Copper, Copper
HvBoedefeld - shuffles deck
HvBoedefeld - draws Estate, Copper, Copper
 
---------- silverspawn: turn 5 ----------
silverspawn - plays 3 Copper
silverspawn - buys Fool's Gold
silverspawn - gains Fool's Gold
silverspawn - draws Fool's Gold, Fool's Gold, Fool's Gold, Copper, Copper
 
---------- HvBoedefeld: turn 5 ----------
HvBoedefeld - plays 4 Copper
HvBoedefeld - buys Fool's Gold
HvBoedefeld - gains Fool's Gold
HvBoedefeld - draws Copper, Copper, Fool's Gold, Fool's Gold, Estate






167. Death Cart
Death cart can be neat as payload, but it's rarely doable. It's really fun if you just want to dig for the ruined market though.






166. Coppersmith
Coppersmith rewards you for getting a lot of Treasure cards into your hand, which is a good enough idea. But you also have to play a terminal, which makes it hard to use and largely skippable. Isn't there another card that does it better?






165. Trade Route
The idea of a card that gets better later in the game is nice. If the original effect was a little bit more useful, it could be pretty high on this list. In some ways, city is a better take on this concept.

Witherweaver

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #156 on: October 28, 2014, 12:06:04 pm »
0

Can you sum up that Fool's Gold log?
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soulnet

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #157 on: October 28, 2014, 12:08:12 pm »
0

Can you sum up that Fool's Gold log?

They are just buying Fool's Gold and nothing else for the first 10 turns of the game, even ahead of real Gold. I can only imagine it was an extremely weak board to make them do that.
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Holger

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #158 on: October 28, 2014, 12:44:23 pm »
+1

Quote
Also I think that the generally accepted rule of them is actually that costs form a partially-ordered set :P
Right. But if you want to compare these costs anyway, Donald's playtesting suggested that a potion should correspond to a price increase of $4 rather than $2-$2.5, at least in the cases of PS and Vineyard (which also worked at $7 resp. $4 according to the Secret Histories).
In terms of how fast you can get a card in the opening, $P is clearly harder than $4, while $2P and $3P are similar (but a little harder) than $5 - you usually get them on the second shuffle.

I do not understand this obsession with 3P.  Alchemist and Familiar are strong enough that they are rarely skippable even at 3P.  Sure, it is possible for multiple players to go Potion/Silver and one to get an edge by the other missing 3P on the next shuffle.  It is also possible to miss 5 when both players open Silver/Silver.  Do you complain that Laboratory and Witch cost 5?  Indeed, that is even more of an "unfair" price as you can open 5/2 and possibly can a TWO shuffle edge with Witch over Silver\Silver.    The generally accepted rule of thumb is that potion converts to 2-2.5 coins.  At 4-4.5, Alchemist and Familiar would be even more unskippable than they already are.  I'd rather the game not force all (good) players down the same path. 

The probability of hitting 3P is about 65% on a S/P opening, compared to about 91% for hitting 5 on a S/S opening, so they're not really analogous.

For a fair comparison, you also have to consider the probability of (not) opening $5 in the latter case, since this also means that one player gains the $5 card a shuffle earlier due to pure shuffle luck. Instead of 91%,  you'll get a percentage much closer to 65% for gaining a strong card one shuffle earlier.
However, one might say that gaining a card one shuffle early early is inherently more problematic for Familiar than for Witch, which can't easily be stacked.

man, it's different. there are reasons why these cards cost 5$. you need to build a deck that hits 5$ early/a lot in order to buy them, and they need to cost 5$ so you can't open with them. And balance is not for powerlevel anyway, it's for fun level.

Agreed in principle, but "fun level" is naturally subjective. I think I prefer to keep Familiar at $3P, since not strengthening an already strong and rather boring card matters more to me than reducing shuffle luck frustration. But it's probably fine either way. BTW, the frustration is also greatly reduced when playing with the official "3-5 Alchemy cards" rule suggestion, because you can then usually still get a good card with $2P.
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Gherald

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #159 on: October 28, 2014, 03:28:19 pm »
0

That suggestion is only there because it seemed novice players thought boards with only 1-2 potion cost cards were silly.
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silverspawn

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #160 on: October 28, 2014, 03:40:24 pm »
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the fools gold log is a portal. it will lead you to the full log.

I just couldn't think of anything to write there. I realized that fools gold was one of the most nullish cards to me. I don't dislike it, I don't like it, FG games are usually fun, as are non-fg games. I think there are quite a few people who feel strongly about it... but not me.

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #161 on: October 28, 2014, 03:48:54 pm »
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What boggles my mind is that someone could like IGG more than fool's gold
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Donald X.

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #162 on: October 28, 2014, 04:00:35 pm »
+4

Right. But if you want to compare these costs anyway, Donald's playtesting suggested that a potion should correspond to a price increase of $4 rather than $2-$2.5, at least in the cases of PS and Vineyard (which also worked at $7 resp. $4 according to the Secret Histories).
In terms of how fast you can get a card in the opening, $P is clearly harder than $4, while $2P and $3P are similar (but a little harder) than $5 - you usually get them on the second shuffle.
There is no amount of $ that P corresponds to. You can look at things in terms of how hard it is to get the cards on various turns, that's reasonable, but "Donald's playtesting suggested that a potion should correspond to etc." is the bunk.
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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #163 on: October 28, 2014, 04:03:22 pm »
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What boggles my mind is that someone could like IGG more than fool's gold
IGG is fun.
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Donald X.

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #164 on: October 28, 2014, 04:05:02 pm »
+9

Cards like Minion make me wish it were feasible to fork the online game and make retroactive changes, but I doubt DXV, RGG or MF have any desire or reason to do something like that.
If the online version were different, there would be people enraged at having broken real-life versions. If we put out a fixed real-life version, there would be people enraged that they bought the old broken version. And we can't send them replacement cards.

It would potentially be possible to tweak cards for a retheme; then you can say, the retheme is part of what you're buying. Otherwise there is just, I can make a few new cards similar to old cards but better-made (e.g. Advisor being a better-made Envoy), provided they aren't so similar as to enrage people. People are just full of rage, waiting to spill out at game designers, that's how I see it.
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LastFootnote

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #165 on: October 28, 2014, 04:11:55 pm »
0

I am always on the cusp of printing updated versions of a few cards and using them in my real-life set. Maybe giving them new names and/or art to try to avoid confusion. Really there are only a few cards that I feel need it. Scout and maybe Thief could have +$1. Scrying Pool drops the spy attack. Maybe replace Rebuild with the old version that remodeled one of the top 3 cards of your deck.
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pacovf

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #166 on: October 28, 2014, 04:12:42 pm »
+6

People are just full of rage, waiting to spill out at game designers, that's how I see it.

AND NOW YOU COME HERE TO INSULT US!?!? THAT'S IT GOOD JOB I'M DONE BUYING YOU'RE SILLY GAMES.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 04:18:02 pm by pacovf »
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silverspawn

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #167 on: October 28, 2014, 04:15:25 pm »
0

I am always on the cusp of printing updated versions of a few cards and using them in my real-life set. Maybe giving them new names and/or art to try to avoid confusion. Really there are only a few cards that I feel need it. Scout and maybe Thief could have +$1. Scrying Pool drops the spy attack. Maybe replace Rebuild with the old version that remodeled one of the top 3 cards of your deck.

I saw that change to rebuild, and I didn't even get it until I read that it was the previous card that would have been in the set if it weren't for Rebuild. But that's not a fix, it's a different card.

How about making transmute non-terminal, and making adventurer dig for 3 cards? I mean, you can't think that Adventurer is fine and thief isn't.

soulnet

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #168 on: October 28, 2014, 04:17:26 pm »
0

People are just full of rage, waiting to spill out at game designers, that's how I see it.

Do you really feel that way? I remember you saying earlier in the thread that you were a happy guy about what you did.

I mean, every semester I have students that complain about the tests being too hard, too different from the practice exercises, etc, and many times in a bad manner, and especially when writing anonymous evaluations online. But I would never say that students are full of rage waiting to spill out at the people who evaluate them.

When you have a (relatively) large audience, you are bound to have criticism, and you are bound to have heavy critics. It is too easy to just take those as representative because they work to be noticeable. You should divide by the total number of people evaluating (in privacy) your game(s).
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LastFootnote

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #169 on: October 28, 2014, 04:21:30 pm »
0

People are just full of rage, waiting to spill out at game designers, that's how I see it.

Do you really feel that way? I remember you saying earlier in the thread that you were a happy guy about what you did.

I mean, every semester I have students that complain about the tests being too hard, too different from the practice exercises, etc, and many times in a bad manner, and especially when writing anonymous evaluations online. But I would never say that students are full of rage waiting to spill out at the people who evaluate them.

When you have a (relatively) large audience, you are bound to have criticism, and you are bound to have heavy critics. It is too easy to just take those as representative because they work to be noticeable. You should divide by the total number of people evaluating (in privacy) your game(s).

Well, it's easier to be full of rage at people you don't know. For most players (that don't read online forums), Donald X. is a faceless name on the box. Your students trust that your goal isn't to screw them over.

I saw that change to rebuild, and I didn't even get it until I read that it was the previous card that would have been in the set if it weren't for Rebuild. But that's not a fix, it's a different card.

How about making transmute non-terminal, and making adventurer dig for 3 cards? I mean, you can't think that Adventurer is fine and thief isn't.

Uh, let's take this back to the Variants forum. My bad for expounding on specific changes here in the first place.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 04:23:41 pm by LastFootnote »
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Witherweaver

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #170 on: October 28, 2014, 04:30:09 pm »
+5

Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage.  Playing Dominion.  We have Dominion in the cage, so that's cool.
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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #171 on: October 28, 2014, 05:14:39 pm »
0

Quote
Also I think that the generally accepted rule of them is actually that costs form a partially-ordered set :P
Right. But if you want to compare these costs anyway, Donald's playtesting suggested that a potion should correspond to a price increase of $4 rather than $2-$2.5, at least in the cases of PS and Vineyard (which also worked at $7 resp. $4 according to the Secret Histories).
In terms of how fast you can get a card in the opening, $P is clearly harder than $4, while $2P and $3P are similar (but a little harder) than $5 - you usually get them on the second shuffle.

I do not understand this obsession with 3P.  Alchemist and Familiar are strong enough that they are rarely skippable even at 3P.  Sure, it is possible for multiple players to go Potion/Silver and one to get an edge by the other missing 3P on the next shuffle.  It is also possible to miss 5 when both players open Silver/Silver.  Do you complain that Laboratory and Witch cost 5?  Indeed, that is even more of an "unfair" price as you can open 5/2 and possibly can a TWO shuffle edge with Witch over Silver\Silver.    The generally accepted rule of thumb is that potion converts to 2-2.5 coins.  At 4-4.5, Alchemist and Familiar would be even more unskippable than they already are.  I'd rather the game not force all (good) players down the same path. 

The probability of hitting 3P is about 65% on a S/P opening, compared to about 91% for hitting 5 on a S/S opening, so they're not really analogous.

For a fair comparison, you also have to consider the probability of (not) opening $5 in the latter case, since this also means that one player gains the $5 card a shuffle earlier due to pure shuffle luck. Instead of 91%,  you'll get a percentage much closer to 65% for gaining a strong card one shuffle earlier.

Quick calculation.
P(1 player gets 5/2, other gets 3/4) = 2*(1/6*5/6) = 10/36 ~ 28%

P(Both get 3/4) = 5/6*5/6 ~ 69 %
P(One hits 5, other doesn't | both get 3/4) ~ 2*(0.088*0.912) ~ 16 %
P(One hits 5, other doesn't) = 0.69*0.16 ~ 11 %

P(One gets 5 a shuffle earlier) ~ 28% + 11% = 39%

Compared to Familiar
P(one hits 3P, other doesn't) = 2*(0.65*0.45) ~ 59%

P(One gets 3P a shuffle earlier) ~ 59% + 28% = 87%  (assuming you're screwed with a 5/2 open)

(Let me know if I screwed anything up)

Which is still significantly larger. Obviously some fudging, like just adding on the 5/2 open. Maybe there's a good 5. I don't know. You probably don't open potion, I think. Also I didn't differentiate getting the 5 two shuffles earlier. Regardless, familiar is still way higher. The other thing to bear in mind is that getting a 5/2 open with a strong 5 can be good, but often there's no 2, so you're opening 5/-, and that isn't so good.
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theblankman

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #172 on: October 28, 2014, 08:58:36 pm »
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Cards like Minion make me wish it were feasible to fork the online game and make retroactive changes, but I doubt DXV, RGG or MF have any desire or reason to do something like that.
If the online version were different, there would be people enraged at having broken real-life versions. If we put out a fixed real-life version, there would be people enraged that they bought the old broken version. And we can't send them replacement cards.
Longtime Magic players either get used to buying new cards to replace old ones (if they want to play formats that require it), or ignore the new cards and play with what they have.  Of course there's no guarantee Dominion players would do the same, but I don't think widespread rage is guaranteed either. 

People are just full of rage, waiting to spill out at game designers, that's how I see it.
I think anonymous people on the internet will rage at just about anything.  I guess maybe game designers happen to be convenient targets?
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it's a shame that full-random is the de facto standard

Donald X.

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #173 on: October 28, 2014, 08:59:57 pm »
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People are just full of rage, waiting to spill out at game designers, that's how I see it.
Do you really feel that way? I remember you saying earlier in the thread that you were a happy guy about what you did.
Do you really feel like I might feel like that? Man maybe you do. I had just said "enraged" a couple times, so I was being incredibly hilarious. In the future to avoid confusion I will mark such sentences by putting *H after them. *H
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ThaddeusB

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Re: silverspawn's card list
« Reply #174 on: October 28, 2014, 09:54:32 pm »
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Right. But if you want to compare these costs anyway, Donald's playtesting suggested that a potion should correspond to a price increase of $4 rather than $2-$2.5, at least in the cases of PS and Vineyard (which also worked at $7 resp. $4 according to the Secret Histories).
In terms of how fast you can get a card in the opening, $P is clearly harder than $4, while $2P and $3P are similar (but a little harder) than $5 - you usually get them on the second shuffle.
There is no amount of $ that P corresponds to. You can look at things in terms of how hard it is to get the cards on various turns, that's reasonable, but "Donald's playtesting suggested that a potion should correspond to etc." is the bunk.

That's not really true.  There isn't an exact amount, but that doesn't mean we can't say anything about what a potion is worth.  In all situations where you have X+Potion, you could have had X+Silver.  Thus, the minimum value of a Potion is 2.  Alchemist is also strictly better than Laboratory, again implying a minimum value of two.  We can't fix an exact upper bound, but its value is clearly not infinite.  If things are even remotely fairly priced, Potion shouldn't be worth more than it costs, so that puts the reasonable max at 4.

Potion costs a bit more than Silver.  Additionally, you can't get one potion from 2 copper (or even 1 gold), so should be more valuable than 1 Silver.   However, Potion costs less than 1 Gold.  If Potion cards are fairly priced (and I believe they are), then 2.5 (>2 and <3) is a reasonable approximation.
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