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Author Topic: M52: Death Note Mafia (Town wins!)  (Read 133929 times)

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Witherweaver

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #200 on: October 13, 2014, 12:33:41 am »

I like Axxle's plan.
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Axxle2

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #201 on: October 13, 2014, 12:38:41 am »

Really, I could do the same thing with your play style.  All you do is throw around votes looking for something to stick.  First you vote WW because he is overly self-aware.  Then you vote for me because my first post is a little wishy-washy without content.  But this time it has actually stuck around a bit and picked up two more votes.  Congrats!  Now your scum partners can slowly fill up the wagon and "lynch" me.
Is this a serious case?
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Axxle2

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #202 on: October 13, 2014, 12:42:01 am »

so, shouldn't we do something to get this game going, in, like, a meaningful way?

I think... uh... I am really towny? that's my only read so far.

I guess the thing about your username slowed it down. I'm trying now to provoke enough people to get something happening.
It really didn't. I asked, he answered, I made a story. That was like a 4 post detour.
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Axxle2

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #203 on: October 13, 2014, 12:43:07 am »

I like XP a bit more as town for his catchup posts, fyi. He can switch with Hydrad in the later pile.
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Axxle2

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #204 on: October 13, 2014, 12:46:39 am »

I think the e case is pretty ridiculous. If you want to start looking for scum, I'd start with the wagon.

*coughwhiteknightcough*
White knighting is protecting a townie when you're scum, and yet you're on the e wagon. What exactly are you trying to say here?
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Axxle2

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #205 on: October 13, 2014, 01:05:12 am »

I think the e case is pretty ridiculous. If you want to start looking for scum, I'd start with the wagon.
This is why I'm voting for him:
1. He didn't vote for anyone in his first post, lack of commitment is scummy.
2. In his first post he mentioned that two players were "self aware" but "cool but not necessarily scummy". I don't even know how that could be "cool" but being super tepid about whether he wants to say they're scum or not indicates scum.
3. He gets somewhat defensive about his first post, and even blasts someone for furthering the game state (voting for someone right out the gate). That's playing more towards the scum win con than the town one.
4. A minor point, but he got the math slightly wrong regarding voting for scum, which probably comes from scum slightly more than town since it shows he hasn't hasn't thought too much about the town motivated vote.
5. He's on the "let's waste a shot to make Axxle2 the shooter" bandwagon, which I find a bit antitown, as hilarious a line we could take.
5a. He votes me saying "either I'm scum or..." without explaining why he thinks I'm scum.
6. He already had 2 votes on him, wagons are protown. (side note: If town worried about how they looked being the Xth person on a wagon we'd never get anyone lynched.)
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Axxle2

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #206 on: October 13, 2014, 01:07:47 am »

I see Axxle got my notes from our chat session about flooding the thread as scum to make it unreadable. Nice.
:-[

Don't confuse Axxle2 with Axxle though. Axxle2 plays like an Olympic racing shoe: fast and loose.
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silverspawn

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #207 on: October 13, 2014, 04:07:39 am »

The case on e was, pretty much, not really a case. And yet it gained votes with impressive speed. I think that's pretty ridiculous, so I said, "I think that's pretty ridiculous".

I mean look at his first post:

Hey guys.  Good to be back in the game. 

ADK is the IC I see.  I am totally fine with him creating whatever deadline works best for him.  silverspawn and WW are extremely self-aware, which is cool but not necessarily scummy (never played with silverspawn, but from what I have watched of his play that seems pretty normal).  Teproc seems like his usual self (as far as I remember).  Keeping track of votes for wagons and helping direct the kill sounds very reasonable.


and here are a bunch of votes for him:

silverspawn being self-aware is indeed very normal for him, which is why I was asking sudgy if he had played with him.

This post by e reminds me of that blitz game where he was scum though. Just saying obvious stuff about everyone, not actually taking any position, keeping your options open.

vote: e

Vote: e

Gut instinct of someone trying to look like they have a townie plan.

(I actually think the shooting Axxle idea is good, but for some reason I don't trust e saying it.)


Hey guys.  Good to be back in the game. 

ADK is the IC I see.  I am totally fine with him creating whatever deadline works best for him.  silverspawn and WW are extremely self-aware, which is cool but not necessarily scummy (never played with silverspawn, but from what I have watched of his play that seems pretty normal).  Teproc seems like his usual self (as far as I remember).  Keeping track of votes for wagons and helping direct the kill sounds very reasonable. 

This post looks like it says something but doesn't actually do anything but approve of already consensus things. vote: e

Looks like my vote wasn't obvious enough. (Or maybe I forgot to switch back)

vote: e

Vote: e

I feel like e or WW is scum but I don't know why I get that feeling. I'm going with e for now though.

Yea, I was VLA, just read the entire thread now.

Vote: e

I didn't so much like the original case, but his post of quoting all the votes on him and giving a lengthy response felt way out of proportion, which I feel usually comes from scum. I don't have a strong opinion on WW, self-meta stuff is always labeled as scummy, but I think at least for myself it's actually town tell.

I see Axxle got my notes from our chat session about flooding the thread as scum to make it unreadable. Nice.

they are just raining out of nowhere. I mean there was some stuff in between, but what? e could totally be scum, but you are building a serious wagon on him based on almost nothing. Especially the way Hydrad jumped on it was super scummy. This isn't RVS anymore, e was at L-2 (?)

vote: Hydrad

you can vote for e. You can even vote for him without presenting a case. But if you do, don't complain when I think the case is bad.

silverspawn

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #208 on: October 13, 2014, 04:13:08 am »

and yea, I think there is scum on the wagon. not one, duh, that's a pretty trivial statement. My guess is more 2+. Hydrad. XP? WW? Maybe even Eevee.

silverspawn

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #209 on: October 13, 2014, 04:15:06 am »

Though, Hydrad looks scummy in almost every game.

Witherweaver

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #210 on: October 13, 2014, 09:54:45 am »

I think the e case is pretty ridiculous. If you want to start looking for scum, I'd start with the wagon.

*coughwhiteknightcough*
White knighting is protecting a townie when you're scum, and yet you're on the e wagon. What exactly are you trying to say here?

If Silver is scum, e is likely town.
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silverspawn

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #211 on: October 13, 2014, 09:57:23 am »

if false ... is not a very interesting statement in any case

Hydrad

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #212 on: October 13, 2014, 09:58:26 am »

Though, Hydrad looks scummy in almost every game.

What do you have against me!
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For anyone else, such a statement would be a scum tell.  For Hydrad, it's simply a tell that you're reading something from Hydrad.

Teproc

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #213 on: October 13, 2014, 10:00:23 am »

Though, Hydrad looks scummy in almost every game.

What do you have against me!

You got mislynched twice, it's not a silverspawn thing.

@WW : I disagree with your statement there, I think wagon dynamics are very different because there are so many scum players. I could easily see scum!silver raising the "wow, that wagon was fast !" issue to protect his partner.

I do think he's town though (silver).
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #214 on: October 13, 2014, 11:36:14 pm »

Here's my reread and off-the-top of my head reactions.

Sweet let's shoot some people.


So there's no Night phase.. setup doesn't say anything about the scum team getting day chat.  Anyone play this format before?

“I don't know something scum would know!” in his first post. I know I bring up Monster's U a lot but dammit I was right about that. It's not a huge deal but I'm going on the record as not exactly buying it.

Silverspawn's early posts seem towny to me. His whole “I'm not the gunbearer?” seems natural.

Maybe you're scum.

Maybe they thought ADK was hard to read.. maybe they think ADK has bad reads, or they don't often get found out by him.

I can tell you I certainly wouldn't have chosen ADK, because he's always the sole guy that suspects me as scum from very early on.  This is exactly the worst format for me as scum and ADK as town.  Or maybe I played some WIFOM with that and convinced my scum team so that I could make this argument.  Of course, if I did that, I wouldn't make this argument, I'd wait until someone else brought it up.

This would be a decent point, except that he was self-conscious enough to bring it up. And I do remember at least one game (Homeland I think) where I didn't suspect WW at all until he made a post saying “ADK hasn't accused me of being scum yet, you ok?”.

vote : WW

I generally get a towny vibe from vote-only posts, especially early in the game. Scum goes out of their way to justify their votes. Though at this point, I think I should point that Teproc might have a very good meta reason to make me the notebearer- in Dune mafia, which just finished, I was town and he was scum and I was completely convinced of his towniness.

I'm not so concerned with getting shot, though.  Because then I get a gun.  And then I can shoot bitches.

“Because I'm totally town!”

Vote: silverspawn

I agree that his first post seems like it's pushing aside suspicion when there isn't any, and it could be planned in a QT.  I usually do RVS but I actually found a legitimate reason to vote someone right away.

This is in the middle of Teproc and WW going back and forth, if WW is scum sudgy might easily be his partner trying to distract.

XP's first posts seem pretty null to me. He votes for WW but it's a point in the game where a wagon obviously isn't going to go through, so it could just as easily come from a scum as from town (regardless of WW's alignment).

Hey guys.  Good to be back in the game. 

ADK is the IC I see.  I am totally fine with him creating whatever deadline works best for him.  silverspawn and WW are extremely self-aware, which is cool but not necessarily scummy (never played with silverspawn, but from what I have watched of his play that seems pretty normal).  Teproc seems like his usual self (as far as I remember).  Keeping track of votes for wagons and helping direct the kill sounds very reasonable.

This is kind of contentless first post from e. I guess they can't all be the best first post ever.

I don't think scum would care about someone's reads when choosing who gets the gun; we decided we would do majorities and with a four-man scum team, I'm sure they realized that's what we would do.

This strikes me as a little odd, since it's not necessarily true. The majority thing is up to the gunbearer and while it's what I'm doing, I think there are players who would shoot whoever the hell they wanted.

silverspawn being self-aware is indeed very normal for him, which is why I was asking sudgy if he had played with him.

This post by e reminds me of that blitz game where he was scum though. Just saying obvious stuff about everyone, not actually taking any position, keeping your options open.

vote: e

Yes, I kept my options open with my first post of the game, rather than immediately voting for someone like you did.

I agree with Teproc that e is reminding of the blitz game with him. It's the nervousness thing, in that game he made all sorts of “oh in my scum QT” jokes. Then again I think that's the one of the only times I've played with him, so maybe I'm biased. Also the quoted post is indeed pretty ridiculous, scum's way more worried about “keeping their options open” in the early game than town.


Axxle2's big catch-up posts... kind of remind of a similar thing that scum!ash did at beginning of Super Mario, which is put out a lot content without actually saying very much or taking much of a stance. And the whole “I'm too relaxed and jokey to be a nervous scumbag” thing is something I might buy from a newer player, but he's experienced enough to fake it.

Then everyone wants to shoot him. I'd rather shoot some of those people first than try and figure out Axxle2, really.

It seems I'll be vla till monday. I hope you won't generate something like agot d1 volume in the meantime :)

We need more from you. We have some time, though.


Off-topic: please, please, please continue this.

Sure, I have 3 votes for me to be the next notebearer, so I might as well respond to them.

[snipped]


e's uncomfortable with votes on him. Which, sure, town is too. Defending yourself isn't scummy. But the whole post is a bit defensive, a bit nervous. And starting it off with that “I'm going to be the next notebearer if I get shot, because I'm town, for reals you guys” comment, I dunno.

XP's series of posts reads towny to me. Especially from he, he's usually quieter, but I think that he tends to be quieter as scum than as town.

Vote: e

I feel like e or WW is scum but I don't know why I get that feeling. I'm going with e for now though.

Hydrad... okay, Hydrad seems scummy to me, like, 100% of the time. In that game I modded I had to keep reminding myself that he wasn't actually scum. I'm getting a better feel for his meta I guess, I mean he seems like his normal self. I don't know.

Silverspawn's statement has a lot of convenience in it.  As hypothetical scum, even if e is not his partner, Silver gets some town cred for defense, and saying "there is scum on the wagon" is probably more likely to be true than not.  And if we end up lynching one of Silver's partner on the wagon, then he gets some bus cred there too.

Okay, there's some truth to this. And I do think what WW is describing is how newer scum players tend to play; in my first scum game I went out of my way to defend a player I new would flip town (I know I reference other games a lot, it's just how I approach this game, I'm the IC so y'all can just deal with it for now)

I agree that silver saying there's scum on the wagon is obviously a very safe statement, however it seems to be a pretty normal town mindset than to think "wow, in this game with 4 scum, that fast-moving wagon has to be manipulated by scum". I also have that voice in my head at least.

The thing is, I think that scum is going to be very self-conscious about wagon manipulation. With four players, you could easily be too blatant. Having more partners isn't entirely a good thing, as there's more people you have to avoid interacting with in an incriminating way.

I like Eevee's first post, actually. I think scum would make more of an effort to comment on every little thing.

In conclusion:

I would be comfortable shooting WW or e. They're both scummy enough, and they're both people that I think are acceptable as the next notebearer if they are town.

One last thing, that I'm going to try- I think that a sometimes you can catch scum by looking at who's not talking to each other (in that, scum teams are going to avoid directly interacting with each other, whether intentionally or subconsciously). So for what it's worth, and as far as I can tell, here's who's not talking to/about who:

Hydrad (post count 14): teproc, eevee, egork, sudgy
Eevee (3): can't really analyze, as he's only made one post in-game (fix this!)
WW (33): Eevee, sudgy, EgorK
Teproc (28): mentions everyone at least once, but outside of his reads list (which leaves out silverspawn btw): Eevee, XP, EgorK
silverspawn (28): sudgy, EgorK, Teproc (I think SS quotes a Teproc posts but never directly comments on him or responds directly to one of his posts)
XP (24): sudgy
sudgy (8): EgorK, e, Eevee, Hydrad, WW
Axxle2 (25): Eevee. But he comments on everything, so.
EgorK (2): Everyone. Post more.
e (11): Eevee, Hydrad, XP, sudgy, EgorK

So no one's talking much about or to Eevee because they're not here. Outside of that, I guess it's not very useful until more people flip. I also think that I have to be more sophisticated in how I analyze this, because there are some people who talk to each other in a conversational way, but never comment on each other's alignments. But that's what I saw looking over things.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #215 on: October 13, 2014, 11:36:48 pm »

sudgy's post count is eight, not a smiley face.
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Witherweaver

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #216 on: October 14, 2014, 12:50:19 am »

Quote
WW (33): Eevee, sudgy, EgorK

"Who's not talking about whom" is an interesting point that I've never considered.  It seems the only people I'm not talking about are the people that haven't really posted anything. 

Also, I'm back to

Vote: e
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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #217 on: October 14, 2014, 02:02:48 am »

I don't think scum would care about someone's reads when choosing who gets the gun; we decided we would do majorities and with a four-man scum team, I'm sure they realized that's what we would do.

This strikes me as a little odd, since it's not necessarily true. The majority thing is up to the gunbearer and while it's what I'm doing, I think there are players who would shoot whoever the hell they wanted.
When we discussed this setup during the sunday mafia chat, I think most of us agreed we'd take input from the town but ultimately make the decision ourselves.
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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #218 on: October 14, 2014, 02:06:26 am »

Quote
WW (33): Eevee, sudgy, EgorK

"Who's not talking about whom" is an interesting point that I've never considered.  It seems the only people I'm not talking about are the people that haven't really posted anything. 

Also, I'm back to

Vote: e
Self-preservation or a real read?

I prefer e to WW/the field really. His overreaction to the wagon is the scummiest thing to me this far.

As I said, Axxle also seems to be trying too hard for my likening, but I've always found him one of the hardest guys to read, so who knows.

ADK is really towny but gee, that's not exactly helpful.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #219 on: October 14, 2014, 02:50:35 am »

I don't think scum would care about someone's reads when choosing who gets the gun; we decided we would do majorities and with a four-man scum team, I'm sure they realized that's what we would do.

This strikes me as a little odd, since it's not necessarily true. The majority thing is up to the gunbearer and while it's what I'm doing, I think there are players who would shoot whoever the hell they wanted.
When we discussed this setup during the sunday mafia chat, I think most of us agreed we'd take input from the town but ultimately make the decision ourselves.

Sure, but not every player was there. I wasn't. And I'm not ultimately making the decision myself- I'm counting my own vote as equal to anyone else's, but I'm explicitly stating if the majority overrules me, I'll go along, which is certainly not something that every player would do.
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Teproc

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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #220 on: October 14, 2014, 06:28:01 am »

How many votes is that on e, and when is the ADK deadline ?
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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #221 on: October 14, 2014, 06:48:05 am »

Interesting read so far, especcially Axlle. Actually if he is really good at vig then vote: Axxle2 as he seems to be hard to read so can be scum as well
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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #222 on: October 14, 2014, 08:11:42 am »

How many votes is that on e, and when is the ADK deadline ?

5 votes on me, and ADK's deadline is still the 19th, just in the morning.  So there is lots of time still.  As far as I can tell the case on me is that I have come across as 1) hedgy and 2) nervous under pressure. 

I really don't have much to say about the hedgy part, because it is true.  I haven't come out really strong against anyone so far.  And while this may come across as a scummy attempt to ensure that I am "on the good side" of whatever lynch/shot that happens and to go with the flow of town, it is really just me feeling the water until I find something to go with.  Which may or may not be the general consensus of town.  Call me scummy for it, but this is just the way I tend to work.  In DW2, I didn't come out with a real vote until several days into D1.  By then I had a good feel for people and had enough to convince my (mistakenly) that faust was scum. 

As far as being nervous under pressure goes, one of the biggest reasons I responded to the wagon that was on me was just to get discussion moving again.  I wasn't nervous about getting lynched at L-3, I just wanted to put some thoughts out there about what I thought of the votes on me to draw out more reactions.  Those reactions just unfortunately turned out to be that more people thought I was scummy.
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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #223 on: October 14, 2014, 08:15:25 am »

Sure, but not every player was there. I wasn't. And I'm not ultimately making the decision myself- I'm counting my own vote as equal to anyone else's, but I'm explicitly stating if the majority overrules me, I'll go along, which is certainly not something that every player would do.

I am really not a fan of this.  I think that the notebearer should listen and put a lot of weight into what the town majority thinks, but should make the ultimate decision himself.
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Re: M52: Death Note Mafia
« Reply #224 on: October 14, 2014, 08:24:12 am »

Also, point by point cases are awesome because they are easier to respond to (my responses in bold):

I think the e case is pretty ridiculous. If you want to start looking for scum, I'd start with the wagon.
This is why I'm voting for him:
1. He didn't vote for anyone in his first post, lack of commitment is scummy.  Got it.  Thanks.  I will put that in my diary under "mafia 101".
2. In his first post he mentioned that two players were "self aware" but "cool but not necessarily scummy". I don't even know how that could be "cool" but being super tepid about whether he wants to say they're scum or not indicates scum.  By "cool" I meant "I will remember this for later but I don't think they are scum yet"
3. He gets somewhat defensive about his first post, and even blasts someone for furthering the game state (voting for someone right out the gate). That's playing more towards the scum win con than the town one.  When I "blasted" Teproc for voting right out of the gate, that was basically just an opposite example of my hedgy first post.  I was attempting to point out that the case on me had a lot more to do about posting style than anything else. 
4. A minor point, but he got the math slightly wrong regarding voting for scum, which probably comes from scum slightly more than town since it shows he hasn't hasn't thought too much about the town motivated vote.  Ok.  Sure.
5. He's on the "let's waste a shot to make Axxle2 the shooter" bandwagon, which I find a bit antitown, as hilarious a line we could take.  OMGUS
5a. He votes me saying "either I'm scum or..." without explaining why he thinks I'm scum.  I wasn't insinuating that you were scum, and therefore did not feel obliged to present a case.  I was merely making a factual statement.
6. He already had 2 votes on him, wagons are protown. (side note: If town worried about how they looked being the Xth person on a wagon we'd never get anyone lynched.)  Good point
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Man. I had four strips of bacon yesterday. Was one automatically undercooked, one automatically overcooked? No, let's put a stop to that right here, all four strips were excellent.
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